Good Vibrations Build Diary (formerly "Cavity filling..

I am beginning a project almost exactly as Dan F has done in his garage conversion, and am mulling over how to fill my 2x4 cavities in the outer leaf of my garage. THe stucco seems to be even more uneven than what Dan encountered. I have many areas of protruding globs of stucco nearly 1 inch to the inside into the cavities in several areas. And the uneveness is really going to be difficult to deal with by mortar alone. Would it be feasible to compact fiberglass batts against the stucco and apply pressure with OSB panels to somewhat level it out? So it would be stucco, Davis barrier, then the batts (like 1" compacted) then OSB and a layer of 5/8 sheetrock. I could knock down some of the worst parts of the stucco and deal with it that way. Would this cause unwanted resonance if it was compacted tightly? Or would this cause worst case a 2 leaf situation?

bzump.. Q? If i can't buildup between the exterior studs because of the extreme amount of irregularity of the stucco, would i be able to make up that lack of mass, by building up the interior wall? I was planning 2 sheets of 5/8, but will go with 3 if anyone can lend advise?

I could knock down some of the worst parts of the stucco and deal with it that way.

I've been dealing with stucco lately and I'll attempt some direction for you... I think you can knock down some of the stucco on the inside between the stud bays. You should go about this very carefully and not with a hand held chisel. Use an angle grinder with a diamond tip blade. I got my Dewalt grinder for $70 and blade for $15. [url=http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?prod_id=100401582]DeWalt 4-1/2 In. Heavy-Duty Small Angle Grinder [/url] There may be another tool for this job BUT from my limited experience, since my grinder has become my fav tool and it's a cheap tool I recommend it. Diamond tip blade is the important part. Cutting the stucco will be like cutting butter and very, very messy. Dust will go every where. Be sure to where mask, goggles and gloves. Of course be careful to not cut through the paper but plan on vapor barrier band aids if you do. This is not easy from the inside because you want the paper to "shingle" overlap down the wall. I believe you or someone else asked this in another post about vapor barrier from inside... just be careful and Tyvek tape could be used to help place the band aids. Also be prepared to patch cracks on the outside of wall BUT if you're careful you should not get any. From there on follow what Dan F did on his outer leaf walls OR Rod recommends compressed (to 25%) Rock-wool in a lot of gap/void areas in his book. The 3rd leaf is not the end of the world. I think you'll be better of taking your time to beef up this outer leaf between the studs then adding more mass to your inner leaf. Just do you best to fill and slop materials into the voids. Use PT OSB if you're going to put it next to mortar or other cement product. Hope that helps. Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

I could knock down some of the worst parts of the stucco and deal with it that way.

I've been dealing with stucco lately and I'll attempt some direction for you... I think you can knock down some of the stucco on the inside between the stud bays. You should go about this very carefully and not with a hand held chisel. Use an angle grinder with a diamond tip blade. I got my Dewalt grinder for $70 and blade for $15. [url=http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?prod_id=100401582]DeWalt 4-1/2 In. Heavy-Duty Small Angle Grinder [/url] There may be another tool for this job BUT from my limited experience, since my grinder has become my fav tool and it's a cheap tool I recommend it. Diamond tip blade is the important part. Cutting the stucco will be like cutting butter and very, very messy. Dust will go every where. Be sure to where mask, goggles and gloves. Of course be careful to not cut through the paper but plan on vapor barrier band aids if you do. This is not easy from the inside because you want the paper to "shingle" overlap down the wall. I believe you or someone else asked this in another post about vapor barrier from inside... just be careful and Tyvek tape could be used to help place the band aids. Also be prepared to patch cracks on the outside of wall BUT if you're careful you should not get any. From there on follow what Dan F did on his outer leaf walls OR Rod recommends compressed (to 25%) Rock-wool in a lot of gap/void areas in his book. The 3rd leaf is not the end of the world. I think you'll be better of taking your time to beef up this outer leaf between the studs then adding more mass to your inner leaf. Just do you best to fill and slop materials into the voids. Use PT OSB if you're going to put it next to mortar or other cement product. Hope that helps. Marc

The bad: Extreme uneveness in stucco The solution? What i think i may do is try to first put some chicken wire over the stucco and create something for the mortar to stick to. Then level out the deepest of voids 1" or so, with the morter. After that i can skim coat the rest with joint compound. Next plan will be to use some dense mineral fiber or rockwool like you suggest and compress it. Followed by OSB, new tar paper barrier, then gypsum. I attached some pics and will probably start a thread later as my build goes on, but its a 20x20 garage conversion similar to Dan F's. ** I am making some compromises for sake of my marraige...lol I cannot angle any of the interior walls as she wants the room to be "normal" looking in her words. But otherwise i will be adding corner bass traps, wall panels and clouds to help with some room treatment. Other plans are for a drum riser and sealed off laundry room.

OK, I'll repeat I got limited experience with this AND... Yup you could knock some of it out BUT I presumed your Stucco was going to look more like mine where the "clumps" on inside are mainly are the bottom and top edges of wall. You'll still have a lot of uneveness to take care of none the less. Boy am I glad the small stucco wall in my house with out any sheathing behind it is not one of my studio walls. You may already have thought of or may be aware of the following, and again I'll try to help. Have you thought about the (most not likely cost effective) option of tearing down stucco all together, installing new OSB sheathing, vapar barrier and stucco? If you make the stucco 1 1/4" thick (like I'm about to do) you'll then end up with a wall slightly better then 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall and if you want more beef you can then easily add drywall between studs. Be careful about installing new vapor barriers with in a wall. You do not want two vapor barriers, vapor or water to get stuck inbetween barriers, it'll rot out what ever material is inbetween. The wall has to drain and let vapor out. IF you're unfamiliar with stucco walls system and vapor barrier stuff then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath and read the "see also" links, including stucco. The paper with holes in it behind your stucco is paper lath, the holes were used to hold the stucco up when installing the base layer of stucco and the reason for the uneveness. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125 See Steves plentiful links on moisture barrier stuff. The Building Science Links are good, especially this one: http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/Vapor_Barriers_Wall_Design.pdf Got to go, baby crying. EDIT: maybe PM Dan F and see if he can give shed some light. Marc

Is there any way to have stucco sprayed on the inside of these cavities and smoothed out? Will a stucco company do this?? Hmmm

guitardad72 wrote:

OK, I'll repeat I got limited experience with this AND... Yup you could knock some of it out BUT I presumed your Stucco was going to look more like mine where the "clumps" on inside are mainly are the bottom and top edges of wall. You'll still have a lot of uneveness to take care of none the less. Boy am I glad the small stucco wall in my house with out any sheathing behind it is not one of my studio walls. You may already have thought of or may be aware of the following, and again I'll try to help. Have you thought about the (most not likely cost effective) option of tearing down stucco all together, installing new OSB sheathing, vapar barrier and stucco? If you make the stucco 1 1/4" thick (like I'm about to do) you'll then end up with a wall slightly better then 2 sheets of 5/8" drywall and if you want more beef you can then easily add drywall between studs. Be careful about installing new vapor barriers with in a wall. You do not want two vapor barriers, vapor or water to get stuck inbetween barriers, it'll rot out what ever material is inbetween. The wall has to drain and let vapor out. IF you're unfamiliar with stucco walls system and vapor barrier stuff then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lath and read the "see also" links, including stucco. The paper with holes in it behind your stucco is paper lath, the holes were used to hold the stucco up when installing the base layer of stucco and the reason for the uneveness. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2125 See Steves plentiful links on moisture barrier stuff. The Building Science Links are good, especially this one: http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/walls/Vapor_Barriers_Wall_Design.pdf Got to go, baby crying. EDIT: maybe PM Dan F and see if he can give shed some light. Marc

No i can't knock it down and start over unfornately for my budget limits me. Good points though... and i will only use one vapor barrier on it, i don't want to enclose wallboard or any other non-stucco like material where it may retain moisture. I may compromise and end up with a 3rd leaf if this proves to be too much labor (wish it were simpler..rrr). But if i can possibly get new stucco up in those studs sprayed in and leveled out...that may be an option.

Baby getting fed now, I can post again.

Is there any way to have stucco sprayed on the inside of these cavities and smoothed out? Will a stucco company do this?? Hmmm

Well 1st, the only type of stucco that is sprayed is for a finish coat... the 3rd layer, and that's for a splatter type finish. Stucco finishes: http://www.bobvila.com/BVTV/HomeAgain/V ... -01-0.html I'd research the vapor barrier stuff, "how stucco works" and think about ripping it down before asking a stucco guy to flatten the inside... unless you can get free advice from a visit for a quote. :wink: You may also be better off just building a 3 leaf system, beef the middle leaf and leave a little more air space to the inner leaf. Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

Baby getting fed now, I can post again.

Is there any way to have stucco sprayed on the inside of these cavities and smoothed out? Will a stucco company do this?? Hmmm

Well 1st, the only type of stucco that is sprayed is for a finish coat... the 3rd layer, and that's for a splatter type finish. Stucco finishes: http://www.bobvila.com/BVTV/HomeAgain/V ... -01-0.html I'd research the vapor barrier stuff, "how stucco works" and think about ripping it down before asking a stucco guy to flatten the inside... unless you can get free advice from a visit for a quote. :wink: You may also be better off just building a 3 leaf system, beef the middle leaf and leave a little more air space to the inner leaf. Marc

That reminds me...my baby..(Maltese) needs to get fed too..lol Ok so foregoing the beef up in stucco... Say i just lay in some mineral wool and 2 layers (OSB and SHeetrock) on the external wall... How deleterious a comprimise will this be? Will low freq resonance really be problematic? My next door neighbours home lies about 25 ft away(but its their garage thankfully). I'm hoping to achieve an stc wall of 58 to 63...but now i'm not sure if going with the alternative beef up will see that improvement. I play acoustic drums and need all the help i can get

Say i just lay in some mineral wool and 2 layers (OSB and SHeetrock) on the external wall...

Yes I think that would be the route, except... try to get the stucco as even as you can before hand (which may be to PITA to be worth it) make the mineral wool or Rock wool as thin as you can, compress about 25%, then OSB and sheetrock. The rockwool will be the air space which will create the 3rd leaf. To my understanding compressing rockwool in there and making the air gap as small as possible is the best route (that is if you figure out a more solid material can be used). The rockwool will minimize the 3rd leaf. I've seen Steve guess a 10db loss in TL from 3rd leafs. Your scenario could not be that much. Here are some numbers:

1 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board (5/8") 2 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 3 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre (2x4's, 24"OC) 4 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity (regular fluffy stuff RC13, no vapor barrier) 5 25 mm gap filled with air (1") 6 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre 7 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity 8 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 9 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board STC 69 LF - TL 50 Hz - 26.7 63 Hz - 31.8 80 Hz - 36.6 100 Hz - 39.5 etc...

above from http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/ SO... if you beef good between the studs, add an inch or two of air space and compensate on your inner wall with 3 layers of 5/8" drywall (or equivalent layers of 1" MDF, you got cheap?) then you should surpass your goal. I do not know though if your goal is high enough for acoustic drums. Have you been through Sharwards mighty thread? AND one more thing about stucco from the inside... Only PT lumber can be next to concrete in any form, like stucco. You would have to wrap your 2x4 frame in building paper or tyvek before putting stucco or mortar in there. Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

Say i just lay in some mineral wool and 2 layers (OSB and SHeetrock) on the external wall...

Yes I think that would be the route, except... try to get the stucco as even as you can before hand (which may be to PITA to be worth it) make the mineral wool or Rock wool as thin as you can, compress about 25%, then OSB and sheetrock. The rockwool will be the air space which will create the 3rd leaf. To my understanding compressing rockwool in there and making the air gap as small as possible is the best route (that is if you figure out a more solid material can be used). The rockwool will minimize the 3rd leaf. I've seen Steve guess a 10db loss in TL from 3rd leafs. Your scenario could not be that much. Here are some numbers:

1 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board (5/8") 2 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 3 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre (2x4's, 24"OC) 4 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity (regular fluffy stuff RC13, no vapor barrier) 5 25 mm gap filled with air (1") 6 90 mm wood studs at 610 mm on centre 7 90 mm of glass fibre insulation in cavity 8 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board 9 single layer of 16 mm type X gypsum board STC 69 LF - TL 50 Hz - 26.7 63 Hz - 31.8 80 Hz - 36.6 100 Hz - 39.5 etc...

above from http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/ SO... if you beef good between the studs, add an inch or two of air space and compensate on your inner wall with 3 layers of 5/8" drywall (or equivalent layers of 1" MDF, you got cheap?) then you should surpass your goal. I do not know though if your goal is high enough for acoustic drums. Have you been through Sharwards mighty thread? AND one more thing about stucco from the inside... Only PT lumber can be next to concrete in any form, like stucco. You would have to wrap your 2x4 frame in building paper or tyvek before putting stucco or mortar in there. Marc

No i didnt get the MDF..it was incredibly heavy and i weighed the benefits vs. cons and figured a pulled back muscle and the dust from cutting would offset any mass/cost rewards. So i found 25 sheets of 5/8 firecode on Craigslist for 100.00! :) Time is on my side, so i find good deals on construction materials and just store them in my other garage until i need them. So far i've found 1500 sq ft of insulation for 200.00 and a whole lot of lumber i can use in the build. Call me cheap...but i'd rather have money saved up for Green Glue, tools, and music gear than pay HD or Lowes my money huh? Right now i am reading Sharwards thread for more insight...lots to read but i've got the main concepts down, techniques and materials for the job, but i also need to do more calculations before i build on my slab. I never drum after 8pm so my demands for a totally soundproof environment is not as strict, but i would like to be able to jam at any time during the day without disrupting the neighbourhood. So i am going to beef up those cavities as much as possible and really put alot of time into getting those smoothed out and sealed. Ill put all the music gear on risers to help with some direct transmission, but have no plans for a floating floor. Thanks for the help, ill have more ??? as i go along i'm sure of it.

n8nod9it wrote:

I never drum after 8pm so my demands for a totally soundproof environment is not as strict, but i would like to be able to jam at any time during the day without disrupting the neighbourhood.

Bear in mind that many municipal codes don't allow that much leeway for "daytime" vs "nighttime" noise levels. Mine only affords a 5 extra decibels during the day. Granted, they may enforce the law more rigorously at night... But complaints usually drive enforcement. Here are the City of Sacramento's objective noise standards. Obviously your town's may differ, but I don't think Sacramento's are that unusual. My city also has subjective noise standards. This means, technically, I could be in compliance with the objective standard, but still get nailed on the subjective standard. In my city, each 15 minute period of violation carries a fine of one thousand dollars. Even if your neighbors are "cool" and appreciate your consideration by keeping it down after 8 p.m., you can't predict how "uncool" a future neighbor might become. The "cool" guy next door today could be replaced by an "uncool" night shift worker who sleeps during the day tomorrow. There's a retired gentleman who lives two doors away from me. He wears hearing aids and is extremely hard of hearing. He has a wordworking hobby and sometimes runs very loud woodworking tools in his garage shop on weekends during the day. I snuck a sound level reading once on the sidewalk outside his home and was shocked at how loud it was: over 80db(A), pushing 90db(A) as I recall -- clearly in violation of our city codes. Any one of us neighbors could have him cited, and someday, someone might. --Keith :mrgreen:

Well after re-reading Dans thread about the stucco uneveness and the PIA it is to fill it (with uncertain results as to the small airgaps), i've come up with how i am going to treat mine. I found that i could use compressed fiberglass ceiling tiles pressed up against the stucco/vapor barrier works pretty well at conforming to the irregularities. I set it against the stucco and work the tile with a gloved hand and rubber block so that it presses into the low spots. I then follow up with another layer (they are about 3/8 inch thick each) on top of the first. I am then putting exterior grade OSB on top of those followed by 5/8 gypsum. So its: Stucco Vapor 2 panels of fiberglass tile OSB 5/8 layer Gypsum R-15 OC pink insulation 12" Airgap Interior 2x4 framing R-15 OC pink 7/16 OSB 2 layers 5/8 Gyp w/Green Glue Interior treatments of 703 wall panels, Bass traps and rubber flooring. I decided to go with not floating the floor and using 1/2" thick vulcanized rubber mat (odorless gym style) over the concrete floor. Ill make this thread my ongoing one...and post some pics of progress of the walls i'm working on guys.

Few pics of the beefing process...i guess in reverse order of construction

As far as your "Caulk here?" question goes -- in my case, I did not.

Thanks Keith thats what i thought...i'll save the caulk for the gypsum layers then! :)

Hmmm, I did caulk on exterior OSB sheathing gaps in some, not all places. Basically where I had materials meeting very unevenly, to account for my little muckups OR where directions of various products stated caulk was needed. IMO, in your situation I would look for big gaps over 1/4" and fill with backer rod and caulk. In the end it may not help a lot BUT it surely will not hurt. Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

Hmmm, I did caulk on exterior OSB sheathing gaps in some, not all places. Basically where I had materials meeting very unevenly, to account for my little muckups OR where directions of various products stated caulk was needed. IMO, in your situation I would look for big gaps over 1/4" and fill with backer rod and caulk. In the end it may not help a lot BUT it surely will not hurt. Marc

Well what should i do? ::scratches head:: Ok i think i should at least fill those areas that have gaps larger than 1/16 inch or so. I have alot of areas that of course couldnt follow the contours of the studs which aren't exactly plumb. ANd i also have this winding power line that goes through the studs and i couldn't cleat all the way to it. So maybe just those areas as the cleats are pretty well pressed against the OSB and those will get gypsum there anyways. I agree it might be slight overkill but it wont hurt and the Sealant isn't that expensive in the big picture of things...might as well do it and practice my caulking technique

Atleast caulk around the perimeters. But you should know that already. I'd use mud to fill bigger holes in the wall section. No need to spend precious caulk there since you'll be adding a few more panes over it..

Ro wrote:

Atleast caulk around the perimeters. But you should know that already. I'd use mud to fill bigger holes in the wall section. No need to spend precious caulk there since you'll be adding a few more panes over it..

I spent today finishing up OSB'n the south wall and then caulking. I caulked all of the cleat faces where they met the studs, but not where they met the osb. I figure that the layers of gypsum will be backer rod there anwyays, but the face areas if not screw down enough may leave a small gap. Maybe insignificant, but i did it anywas. Also i caulked around the snaking power line were the cleats stopped. These areas are proving to be the most time consuming, as everything has to be custom cut. I caulked any gaps between OSB end seams, i had a few 1/4 gaps there. All in all i used 2 tubes for one 20x10 wall. Not bad for insuring things stay tight.

There's a simple guideline: Where air (or light) goes, sound goes. THAT should, atleast, be caulked (mudded, GB-ed or whatever)

Tasks: Install Weather Sealed Exterior Sound door Install Interior Double Entry doors

Updated pics

sharward wrote:

Here are the City of Sacramento's objective noise standards. Obviously your town's may differ, but I don't think Sacramento's are that unusual. My city also has subjective noise standards. This means, technically, I could be in compliance with the objective standard, but still get nailed on the subjective standard.

Thank you! The link you posted helped me find the info for MY city. Very helpful.

Thanks for the thanks! 8)