King-I-Divine Studios (New Dimensions)In need of Assistance!

OK guys great news! I got more space! 1 I am so excited now I can get a better design than what I had before... I have previous posts here but i am going to start the process all over again from the start. Hang in there with me as I try to explain my space the best way I can. :D Objective: I am a hip-hop and R&B producer. I plan on doing a lot of mixing and tracking vocals. So great acoustics is a must as well as soundproofing. I live in a town home and I am separated from my neighbors by brick walls. Location: I live in Atlanta GA U.S.A Process: well I have good price from a contractor and he is pushing me to get started b/c he has other work to do. SO I am really pressed for time. However, I have learned to take my time and make sure to do it right on the first try. SO I would say that I am in the planning/buying materials/building stage… Research: Rod Gervias book (he has also been great in answering questions in the past. The book is a must) John’s site. Been poking around asking questions doing searches now I think I am ready to get this thing going. Budget: My budget is $10,000 - $15,000 us dollars. I am trying to stay as close to $10,000 as I possibly can (but I know I might not). Therefore, i am going to be doing a lot of DIY treatments where I can. I got an HVAC estimate of $3,000 to cover the whole basement area. That way I have separate control from the upstairs part of the house. I also have a contractor coming in to help me with a lot of the work. I am not experienced in building so I need as much help as I can get. He says he has built studios before but after going through this site and seeing all the different complications you can run into, I am making sure I get as much info as I can to give to him. How loud? When it comes to db’s I cannot give an exact number (sorry). I can tell you that I do plan on doing some nighttime recording but not at extremely loud levels. I do not monitor that loud. I will not be doing any recording of any live bands with drums or guitars and stuff. EquipmentDaw, 8 channel mixer I was looking at some Genelcs’ but I’m not sure if they can be soffited? My Dimensions The size of the room I will be using is 20L x 9W x 7.9H… The total size of the room is 20 x 16… I can’t use the whole room b/c my wife wont let me and I also have things in the weirdest places which prevents me from using the space like I would like to. So I pretty much have a design that I have in mind based on the space I have picked out. I have to make a compromise with my self b/c where I'm putting the studio it will be in the front of the room meaning in order to get to the other side of the basement you have to walk through the studio. I decided that would be ok b/c I do not have a lot of traffic and my clients would not be on that side of the studio anyway. I know its weird but it is what I have to work with. My width cannot be wider than 10ft...(Darn wife). My vocal booth will be 6x6 in the next room, which will be half laundry room half booth. (Isolated of course) Existing structure Concrete floor with earth on the bottom… I don’t have ceiling room to raise the floor and I don’t want to spend money doing it wrong? I was hoping to put some laminate down. I think it was Keith who had water trouble and was suggesting using something else but I like the laminate look. Plus I have some left over from renovations. Ceiling Right now, the ceiling is covered with drywall and not insulated. I have a concern about my ceiling height I was told that 7.9 is not ideal for the height. So I was thinking of dry waling with green Glue to the floor board upstairs,(depending on if it can hold the weight) insulating and using Risc and hat channel with 2 sheets of drywall with Green Glue in between them. (I am still somewhat unsure of how to do the ceiling thing so if I am headed in the wrong direction someone PLEASE stop me and turn me around! In addition, I was thinking about hanging a cloud over the mix position to absorb the sound reflecting from the laminate floor. I viewed kendale’s forum and his cloud looks very nice. So I am going to get some ideas form his design. (All suggestions, comments and questions are welcomed I am still a newbie.) Walls Like I stated earlier brick walls separate me from my neighbors. They both have drywall in front of them. I am not sure if they are insulated. I plan to tear off the sheetrock, insulate if necessary, and then use the walls as the 1st wall in my 2-leaf wall system. So my wall system will go like this, Brick wall, 1-Inch space, Wall, Stuff wall cavity with insulation, 1-inch space, Wall, Stuff cavity with insulation, 2 layers of drywall 5/8 and ½ horizontal, vertical with Green glue in the middle. I hope I got that right. To my understanding that would be considered an outside in wall. Pheww…..this is long! I have pix to show what walls exist so you guy’s can get a better visual! The other 2 walls are what separate’s the room from the other rooms. One wall separates the booth from the control room and the other wall separates the control room from the bathroom. (As I said, ill put pic’s so that you can see a visual) I plan on tearing off the drywall wall off those walls and insulating them and using those existing walls as my 1st leaf. I confused my self-explaining this so I know you all are confused…if you all got any questions please do not hesitate to ask for a better explanation… and will do my best to explain. Doors Since your going to have to walk through the studio to get to the other side of the basement, I am going to have to put 2 doors opposite from each other in the control room. I read on the site the double doors with a space are better that 1 solid door but I am not if I can afford 4 doors for my control room and 1 door for the booth…. That is a lot of doors to buy. Glass Well according to the design I have the glass will be on my left side. The thing that I was afraid about was wall symmetry. Should I put glass opposite the other glass to make the walls equal? What can I do to offset the glass looking into the vocal booth? In a nutshell, that is what I have to work with see pictures and diagram’s below to get a better idea of my space. Some questions I had were Can I build some walls outside in and some walls inside out? For example, the walls around my listening position should I build those with the insulation on the room side to help with absorption. I see many people have slot resonators and I am not exactly sure on what it is used for or even how to build them. Should I use the slots or just absorption? Many designs that John creates are built with splayed walls to help with early reflections. John actually provided me with a drawing based on some old measurements I had but I cannot really explain to my contractor the splayed wall thing. I do not know what goes behind them in those little corners. Do you put insulation hangers or what? I need to do more research but if someone can shed some light on that, it would be very helpful. I saw some studios with soffit mounted speakers but I am not sure if the speakers are in the 2nd wall of the leaf system or if they are in another wall built on top of the 2nd wall (which would be a 3-leaf system). I cannot even really explain it so I need some clarity on that also. Do I need the actually speaker when I’m designing the soffit space or can I just use speaker dimensions to create the space? With just a booth being used for vocals what type of treatment would I use…The booth would be used for mainly singing but I might use it for spoken word sessions every now and then. I know for spoken word you want to keep the intelligibility of the voice and on singing vocals, you want a certain type of reverb? Is there a way to achieve both? Well that would be all for now... I thank all that respond and take the time to read this thing I hope its not too long. I just did not do a great job of posting previous times so I wanted to do a better job this time. Thanks Sean [/b]

pix

pix

pix

pix

pix

pix

pix

Hi Sean, You have a heap of questions here and you have been around this forum a while so if I point out something that you already know - lemme know :wink: In relation to the speakers (whether to have them before you begin) you can build an adjustable soffit mount (I will have another search for the drawings are around here someplace in the forum)..... Here is info on the air gap for powered speakers...if you need it.. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... it&start=0 Re Genelecs - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ble+soffit Hey as a mater of interest what HVAC solution are you going for?? cheers Eliot

Sean, I don't have time to right a long post, but from reading the above I'd say your in a spot of thinking I was in let's say 6 months ago. That would be just starting to really absorb the over all picture and options of what building this dang thing will take. At the same time still having several points of utter confusion from reading contradicting statements, or just not being able to retain everything and make confident decisions. If some one else doesn't get you 1st, in a few days I'll try and help you out. I got gigs the rest of week and completely looking forward to a 3 1/2 hour drive each way for a 10 minute gig in Miami tommorow. :roll: 2d drawing of existing walls/obsticles??? Marc

hay guys here is the desgin that i came up with.. i know its not the best and im hoping to get more help on the actual desging but this is just a sketch of the space that i have to utilize...Im pretty limited b/c of the door and the window and the fireplace being where they are as u can see.. Im sure for acoustics i will have to change up certain things to my desgin but i just want you guys to see my idea... Eliot...thanks for your post and reading my questions...I actually read alot of the stuff but i forget to save it.. so when i need it i always forget where i got it from... To answer you question about the HVAC.. I have a freind of the family who is an HVAC guy and hes going to install a 1 ton 13 seer unit for my whole basement.. The things that made me go that way is b/c i want sepereate temp control for the basement and the current HVAC is overloaded already heating all 3 floors of the house. Marc, thanks for haning in there with me i appreciate all the help.. below is a sketch of my existing space.... you can match it to the actually pix and really get a good feel of the space. Thanx and ALL input is welcomed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111 (just be nice) :D

Here is the desgin im thinking about

Here is the desgin im thinking about

Sean,

the splayed wall thing. I do not know what goes behind them in those little corners. Do you put insulation hangers or what?

To my understanding Insulation hangers yes. Also if you can, you should probably definitely rotate the layout to accomodate a corner control room as per SAE drawings...there are variations on it all over the design forum but after all the reading I have done, the control room shape you have here IMHO will be disastrous for mixing...my guess is that the amount of acoutic treatment you will need to help that room will take up half it's space again.. There is a variation on my post "Kangaroo St Studios" - have a look at our drawing then John's drawing to see the principles in action.. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6968 I am a beginner too but have spent the last 4 months with my head buried in books on this subject - so as they say - a little knowledge is dangerous but may save the project and a small fortune :wink: Hope this helps buddy Cheers Eliot

hay wsup Eliot... I actually was looking at the corner room desgin as i felt that would be another alternative as far as desgins go.. the thing is im not skilled in sketching and i dont think that i can draw a proper corner design with my demension restrictions...Hopefully John will give the post a look at and either help me get a new design or try to fix the one I already have. Its so hard to get a good design b/c im limited in space. I can only use 9ft of the 16ft wall so that limits my witdh or length for that matter drastically...and i dont want to build a studio that negates the rest of the space around it......so Ill probably just have to sacrfice and treat the listening position heavily in order to achieve the proper acoustics...I dont know im waiting to see what John can come up with... thanx again for looking ps i figured they were hanger :D

sean - I've already given you two options. Version 1 is similar to whart you are drawing - I don't see the problem. cheers john

Hay John thanx for the reply... I had to change my design because the measurements i got from my wife were incorrect.... the size of the room is 20 x 16... which means that the designs that you gave me before would put me to close to the fire place and be a fire hazard...so thats why im trying to build it away from that side of the wall.... the fire place is like in the middle of the room and it makes it hard to build and still keep some floor space outside of the studio....which is why i opted to utilize the 20l x 9w floor space....thats pretty much the only option that i have...( atleast as far as i can see... is it possible to get a desgin for that space im forced to use???? Thanx again sean

Well Sean - if you come to this site and I give you two full plans and you now say the dimensions were wrong - what do expect eh?? :roll:

John you are absolutley correct...I was ill prepared when i came to you the first time.. I can understand if you choose not to assist me in my project...but i have done alot more research now and i am in a better position to understand the whole STUDIO DESIGN PROCESS... so if its in your gracious spirits to assist me in creating another desgin i would greatly appreciate it. sean

well apart from doing a big rectangular room like you have drawn you could try this. BTW - please do not post a skp file with that singer as he's copyright FormFonts. cheers john

Hay John thanx for your help...That desgin looks like it can work.. my main concern was the fire place and it looks like i clear it by alot with this desgin. I dont see the actual measurements to the room itself...could you send me the SKP file so i can get the room measurements.... Thanx a bunch Sean

here you go

ok guys Ive got the desgin that im going to be working with.. (the new one above) but now im back to the brain racking questions again.... Is the Soffit wall a seperate wall from the 2leaf system :?: (which would be 3 leafs and i know thats no good) OR is it the 2nd wall IN the leaf system? and i guess the same question would go for the angled walls at the rear of the control room by the couch... Are those the 2nd leaf wall? If they are the 2nd leaf walls do i hang insultions hangers between them??? Help please.. :( Ive seen so many variations that its confusing me alil bit.. I know what the standard is im just trying to makre sure im seeing things right...

Eh Sean,

Is the Soffit wall a seperate wall from the 2leaf system (which would be 3 leafs and i know thats no good) OR is it the 2nd wall IN the leaf system? and i guess the same question would go for the angled walls at the rear of the control room by the couch... Are those the 2nd leaf wall? If they are the 2nd leaf walls do i hang insultions hangers between them???

Isolation loss via 3 leaves happens to a degree with almost any type of acoustic treatment you add inside the room. More loss would be with tuned slot walls and soffit walls as apposed to very little with corner bass trap just filled with insulation, the more solid mass in the acoustic treatment the more isolation loss. The way around this is to over compensate, adding mass and or air to your MAM wall system around the acoustic treatment. From Steve on an old thread of my design:

Still, any time you add ANY traps to inside walls you create a multi-leaf construct, and should allow for that by using MORE mass in the OTHER leaves or a wider air gap between them. Otherwise you'll end up with less isolation than you bargained for... Steve

Brian Ravnaas, from the Green Glue Company is currently posting test results about isolation loss with a panel trap hear: panel trap experiment outline Johns soffit wall could be built within the Air of MAM IF you’re not concerned about isolation. In other situations where other studio walls are behind the soffit, isolation could be built accordingly. But with your current Design from John if you desire a level of isolation your going to have to build your MAM, over compensate with Mass around the soffits IF you want to maintain and even level of TL/STC/isolation from all walls.

using Risc and hat channel

Use RC/resilient channel. Hat Channel is of no benefit for isolation.

Like I stated earlier brick walls separate me from my neighbors

Is it solid brick or hollow CB (concrete block)? Just checking, CB walls should be filled to avoid triple leaf.

Brick wall, 1-Inch space, Wall, Stuff wall cavity with insulation, 1-inch space, Wall, Stuff cavity with insulation, 2 layers of drywall 5/8 and ½ horizontal, vertical with Green glue in the middle. I hope I got that right. To my understanding that would be considered an outside in wall.

Not sure what you mean with that, you got 2 frame walls? You can add/attach insulation directly to brick wall. Using different thickness of drywall will give a gain in isolation in the mids but performs worse in the lows, TL is what we are after so it’s better to stick with all 5/8” drywall and forget the ½”. I know this is in the stickies some where’s, by Steve and Steve (on some thread) corrected my understanding of this. Standard fluffy fiberglass is meant to fit into a 2x4 wall, so it’s 3.5”’s thick and comes in RC11 and RC13.

I read on the site the double doors with a space are better that 1 solid door but I am not if I can afford 4 doors for my control room and 1 door for the booth…. That is a lot of doors to buy

You can build one super door, but by the time you’ve built it correctly it made be more expensive then 2 doors. Several forum members have found solid wood, used doors with no frames cheap on eBay and in surplus stores. Keep your eye out.

Can I build some walls outside in and some walls inside out?

Yup sure can. This was once in my design, I may or may not bring it back. For me it’s a battle considering isolation, acoustics and square footage loss. Increasing Mass or Air gives more isolation, decreasing Mass or Air gives less. Turning a wall inside out decreases the AIR... so a wall 2x 5/8” drywall, 2x4 studs w RC13 insulation, 1” air, 2x4 studs w RC13 and 2x 5/8” drywall = about 65 STC. The air in this equation includes 3.5” x 2 of insulation, 7+1 = 8” of air. Turning one wall inside out decreases the air and can’t remember of the top of my head how much less STC you would have, but I’m sure Steve has posted it somewhere. The inside out wall is difficult to build> frame, put in position, square and brace it, take it down, add drywall, lift back up with help from 2 or 3 grunting friends, then how do you stuff backer rod and caulk around perimeter? Could place a large bead of caulk on floor before setting it down BUT for sure it won’t be as tight of a seal as building the regular way AND you’ll have isolation loss. Gaining the 3.5” for acoustic treatment within wall cavity is valuable when you’ve only got a 10’ wide room. When combining outside and inside walls care must be taken to not create reflection points from within stud cavities. Should be easy…

I have to make a compromise with my self b/c where I'm putting the studio it will be in the front of the room meaning in order to get to the other side of the basement you have to walk through the studio. I decided that would be ok b/c I do not have a lot of traffic and my clients would not be on that side of the studio anyway. I know its weird but it is what I have to work with. My width cannot be wider than 10ft...(Darn wife).

OK I’ve stared at your existing conditions/rooms and I am wondering why you’ve not considered something like (sorry to not draw): I’m going to call north the top of your drawings so far. Put a new door in Laundry room to the big room, at the north end of the wall. Leave laundry room as is, maybe this will make wife happy for storage and easier access. Close off door from laundry room to small room (but not if using window as I describe below) Use small room as the vocal booth; build new inner leaf walls around throwing one wall off parallel by 24 degrees as John has done. Put your CR in the south west corner of big room, and either face the vocal both with a door or window between soffit speakers (download Johns "Paddy2" & "Studio in a container" SketchUp designs to see what I mean) OR take Johns last design and flip it from the north west corner of big room to south west corner, use window or door to vocal both. This would leave a straight path and fewer doors to get to laundry from outside door. You might be able to make CR bigger and wife happier. I may have missed a few points on what you’ve wrote or asked, but go to go. Marc

hay Marc i put some pix in here just to make sure that i got everything correct...as i want to be able to explain the construction process to the contractor. ill start with the wall construction...The reason why i left an inch of space between the concrete wall and the insulated 2x4 wall is due to humidity factor...Rod suggested that i give the brick wall some breathing space so that mold dosnt show up on my insulation... check the desgins tell me if im correct.. the ceiling i still havent gotten that yet.... i know im suppose to drywall direct to the floor board with green glue and screws and then inslulate...after that im pretty much lost...i know i have to decouple my room from the exisiting ceiling but i cant create a false ceiling b/c of the height...so im pretty much at a loss for what to do with the ceiling...im still searching the forum for an answer.. the thing that i dont understand the most is the soffit wall and the back walls... I decided to make the soffit wall the 2nd leaf wall due to the minimal amout of space i already have...so i guess that means that i need to beef up my 1st leaf in order to compensate correct? or add more air space between the first and 2nd leaf. and the same goes for the rear of the room .....what im getting from the desgin is that back wall is similar to the soffit wall so will i treat that the same way i treated the soffit wall? also that back wall should be an inside out wall as well as the sofft wall correct? im trying to keep some isolation in the room while trying to maintain space using my walls for bass traps and such.... also if im correct on all of what i stated earlier (which i doubt) do i still hang the insulation hangers in the gaps of the soffit and the back wall even if the wall is inside out? AND i was really trying to make out your possible design for my space but no luck i think i need a visual.... :cry: I have a headache im trying to get this all down b/c im about to lose my contractor...he's been waiting for about 3 months to build and i keep learning new stuff and i dont want 2 lose him...Im getting a great great great deal... anyways i thank you again and everyone else that has contributed to helping me get this lil A$$ space :x done properly!!!(darn wife) Sean