Hey ev1. Need some tips, on constructing an isolated drum booth.
I was going to do a room within a room construction, in this room(see pics) but, i because, its a rental condo, I have decieded it may be easier and better, for me, (with my limited constructoin skills) to build a booth.
Any tips? I want to be able to record and play drums during the day and, there is no-one on either side of me, just above and below.
I have been building traps and such, with roxul safe N sound, and its quite effective, so i was going to use that for my insulation in the rooms's walls, and floor and ceiling.
any help on how i should get started>? do i build the floor, then the walls?
thanks in advance.
Isolated Drum/Vocal Booth?
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 5977.
Since you're not on the ground floor, your options for building an effective isolation booth for drums are going to be very limited. Stopping sound from something as loud and broad as a drum kit requires a lot of mass that you are probably not going to be able to afford to put on that floor without risking a devastating structural failure that will kill everything and everyone in its crushing path. (Don't think I'm kidding either.)
While the 3D rendering of the room is cool and all, it doesn't even scratch the surface of the real details we need to know about in order to make recommendations that are useful and not dangerous to you or other inhabitants of the building.
You'll want to read (and, if necessary, reread) and follow all of the points in the "Before You Post" announcement.
hmm....
the floor is solid concrete, and, thick as well.
I am not looking for complete isolation, but, and, i dont want to build a complete room within a room, so, this way i will have more space, to build more mass into this booth.
Obviously, do not want to pour a concrete slab, on this floor, but you cant tell me, that, i cant get some satasfactory results? What about rooms, like the wisperroom, and, all of that? I could buy one of those, but, i think thats a waste of money, when, i could build one, and they claim to be very effective, in reducing, sound.
Come on, there has to be a way, to reduce it enough to be able to do this.
I realize, the structure of the floor is important, and, i know that this one, is solid concrete, so are the walls, all of the walls actually.
And, I dont see what other kinds of measurments you could need, what else would you like me measure?
Thanks, for your repsonse, but, I think you have mistaken, me for someone who doesnt understand, what i am up against , and, has no idea, what i am talking about. sorry, if i mislead you. I know the challenge i am facing, thats why i opted for the drum booth instead of trying to do that whole room.
oh by the way, i have thourghly gone over, the before you post page, but, thanks for including it again for me.
I have not violated anything there. I am not asking to float a floor in an upper level, and, i have done my research. My profile is upated, i included pics, and, my goals, of what i would like to do.
What is it your suggested, that, i did not include?
Sorry, to sound pissy, but, i thought i had a pretty good post, and, i covered everything, so i wouldnt get a reply exactly like the one you left me, like, you cant do it, you dont know what your talking about, and, by the way, read the before you post rules.
Is there anyone, else, that would like to take a stab at this? something, comprimisable?
Actually, the images are too wide... The "Before You Post" announcement states:oh by the way, i have thourghly gone over, the before you post page, but, thanks for including it again for me. I have not violated anything there.
- Please resize as necessary to keep graphics BETWEEN 700 and 750 pixels wide - otherwise it's either too small for details or it forces people to scroll sideways to read every line of text. :x
You may not be asking to float a floor in an upper level, but that may be what will have to be done to achieve a decent level of isolation... And since you didn't previously state specifically that you don't intend to build a floating floor (or that you are dismissing the concept altogether), we had no idea that you even knew what one was.I am not asking to float a floor in an upper level, and, i have done my research.
How about this:My profile is upated, i included pics, and, my goals, of what i would like to do. What is it your suggested, that, i did not include?
- Include as much detail as possible about the existing construction. Having details about anatomy of your existing floor, walls, and ceiling is critical.
i.e., not "me" I guess... :roll: ...OK. I give up. Anyone "else" care to assist? :?:Is there anyone, else, that would like to take a stab at this? something, comprimisable?
One other thing... Don't assume that just because an upper floor is concrete that you can put anything you want on it. Cyeazel paid a structural engineer to tell him how much additional weight he could put on his upper concrete floor. So, my "death warnings" are still valid.
hey man, i dont mean any disrespect, i am sure you know alot more about this than i do, but, i was reading some of your other replies, and i noticed that, you seem to jump on people, about readign the before you post stuff, and, you seem to point out there flaws, quickly, and very short.
For example, steve and john, even though they have said it a million times, they always seem to ask nicely. And, i am sure they are frustrated.
Being, a guest, here like everyone else, i was curious as to why you do that.
Anyway, that being said, I think i was clear enough in my post about what i wanted, just a littel construction help, and, how to build this drum booth.
Put it this way, the gear/furniture, that, i took out of this room, wieghed a ton. I had a vocal booth, my whole studio, a bunch of construction materials , etc. I really doubt, that, a drum booth, is going to collasp the floor. REally, i am not pouring a slab, It will be made out of wood, drywall, and rockwool, and, willl probably , be, 8 x 8. or something.
I do realize, the hazards. That is why i am not, going to try to float a floor in here. In my first post, I did mention, that the floor was made of concrete.
Anyway, mabey we could start over, I just want to build a drum booth. Not a bomb shelter. Something, that will cut the volume, say in half. I dont need total isolation. My neighbours, are out all day, and they know i rock out. I have already done drum trax, in here, without anything, and i was fine.
Or, i could leave feeling, stupid for asking, because, even though i thought i covered everything, there wasnt enough detail, and, i dont know what i am talking bout.......either way....dont take it the wrong way.
Ok?
Hi Audiotracker,
What I'd investigate is something like this: float the floor of the booth using an appropriate amount of rubber and/or neoprene pucks (I don't know which ones are better, others on this forum do), with your floor joists (probably 2x4s to maximize the inner height of the booth), putting rockwool between the floor joists, and then beef the floor up with a few layers of MDF or plywood. I'd build the walls of the booth up from the floor, and cover the OUTSIDE ONLY of the walls with a couple-three layers of sheetrock, possibly adding green blue between the layers if you have the budget and want the extra isolation. On the inside of the booth, I'd line between the joists with some sort of insulation, the rockwool you mention would probably work fine, and then cover it with cloth. This way you can finish the outside of the booth in sheetrock, and the inside of the booth will have some absorption so it will probably sound better. I'd probably build the ceiling similarly to the walls, with absorptive insulation on the inside and sheetrock on the outside. I'd install a nice hollow-core door that's been beefed up with MDF.
Note that this idea is definitely big-picture, and the devil is in the details, as they say. There are people on this forum MUCH more experienced than I who can help you in the details, ie, what kind of pucks and how many, etc.
But again, Sharward is right; you'll have to plan very carefully for weight. You'll need to know how much the entire booth will weigh so that you can a) make sure the concrete can support it, and b) use the correct number and spacing with the pucks. And while Sharward's warnings represent probably a worst-case scenario, you should definitely think about this stuff. Have a structural engineer double-check it.
If you did this carefully, you might even be able to come up with some sort of modular design, so that it can be disassembled and moved in the future if need be, though the more mass it is the better it will isolate. If it's light enough to be truly portable, you probably won't get much isolation from it.
Sorry for the delay in responding to this. In truth I have been trying to do so for the last 12 hours but I have major hardware failures on my laptop. I'm finally on another machine.......
audiotracker123, I apologize for my less-than-welcoming demeanor. I appreciate the feedback and hope we can "start over" somewhat. You're here for answers and I/we are here to help you, not to judge you.
No offense intended whatsoever -- but you really need to be more certain than "really doubting" that your floor will collapse. When I do some quick math, based on what I know (which, when it comes to your construction situation, still isn't much), you may be in danger. 5/8" drywall weighs about 2.3 pounds per square foot ( 2.3 ). I five-sided box ( x 5) measuring eight feet ( x 8 ) by eight feet ( x 8 ) with three layers of drywall ( x 3) weighs over a ton ( = 2,208 ), not even counting framing. That amount of weight on an eight foot by eight foot area ( / 64 ) amounts to 34.5 pounds per square foot of dead weight. That amount of weight per square foot exceeds cyezel's structural engineer's recommendation by over 20%... And I'm ignoring the fact that the weight is concentrated along the edges of the room, so in fact the footprint of the walls would amount to over 200 pounds per square foot. :shock: Now, I am not a structural engineer... And even if I were, I wouldn't be able to advise you in your situation because we don't have enough data to make any meaningful analysis. The point I am making is that you cannot just assume that because your floor is concrete that somehow it is impervious to failure by overloading. Although floating a concrete slab is extremelly heavy, so is drywall, especially when you pile on the layers. You may be assuming correctly, but you need to be correct after you have the proof. Lives are at stake. Notice that the above estimate doesn't even consider floating a floor at all. I hope I haven't turned you off to the point of silencing you. We really do want you to be successful in your endeavor -- or, if laws of physics don't allow you to succeed, then it may make sense to cut your losses and not build it at all. I'm not saying we're there yet -- there may be options, including (as jwl indicated) use of Green Glue which may allow you to reduce the overall weight of your solution by a significant amount. Bottom line -- don't assume anything. Again, I'm sorry about how I came across initially. I hope I'm coming across as less of an asshole now -- someone who really does want to keep you and those around you undead. :) --Keith :mrgreen:I really doubt, that, a drum booth, is going to collasp the floor.
OK, it's starting to make sense. Sharward is in actuality the master vampire of the western hemisphere! He's not really making a drumbooth in his garage, but rather a place to hide his coffin, impervious from sunlight and/or vampire hunters! :shock: :wink:I hope I'm coming across as less of an asshole now -- someone who really does want to keep you and those around you undead.
:lol: too funny! i agree with Sharward's cautions though. don't assume anything.OK, it's starting to make sense. Sharward is in actuality the master vampire of the western hemisphere! He's not really making a drumbooth in his garage, but rather a place to hide his coffin, impervious from sunlight and/or vampire hunters! :shock: :wink:
I cannot tell you how many times I've joked about turning my sound room into a tomb for me when I die -- so that's funnier than you know! :lol:Sharward is in actuality the master vampire of the western hemisphere! He's not really making a drumbooth in his garage, but rather a place to hide his coffin, impervious from sunlight and/or vampire hunters! :shock: :wink:
ok.....awesome, thanks for the replies, and, thank you sharward, for not being such an asshole.....(joke.)
Ok, well, i have really no way of, finding out how much weight i can put on this floor. I do understand, that, lives could be affected, if i put enough weight on it, to collapse it, but, what i didnt mention is that, there is no-one living underneath me, its a laundry room, but, there could still be people down there. etc, but, i could make it a bit lighter, based, on not need supa dupa isolation....
Now, is there some estimate, of the wieght i could use? without hiring an engineer, to inspect this? Like, some kinda of basic wieght...
there has to be some way for me, to build this thing, without, killing anyone.
the frame, will not weigh that, much, so its the drywall, thats so heavy. What if i only use 2 layers? I dont know, what if i make it smaller? it doesnt have to be 8x8. in fact, that is probably to big. 7x4.5? that reduces things doesnt it?
I know, its a solid floor. you cant hear poeple talking/walking above, and, in my living room, i have, at least a ton in wiehgt up here. mabey more.
any thoughts on a basic, safe wieght? I dont know what other details i could provide you with, except to tell you that, the buillding is an older style condo that, was built in the late 70's designed for people to buy. everywall is concrete, and, its very solid. There is no neighbour noise at all, unless someone drops soemthing hard above me, and, then i hear a faint tick, like you would. Would i be off, to say that, its most likely 6" r e-bared conrete?
Thanks, everyone.
Honestly, the amount of weight you can add to an existing upper floor is probably going to be minimal, based on the fact that home builders (and condominium builders) and architects tend to build based on minimum requirements to meet code.
Learn about dead load vs. live load. Code typically calls for 30 or 40 pounds per square feet (denoted as "psf") dead load. Builders are typically going to use the cheapest materails to achieve that. This means if they can get by using 2x6s instead of 2x8s, they will, and that will leave you with negligible wiggle room to add a lot of extra dead load.
Roofers go through this all the time. You can't keep adding layers of composition shingle over and over onto the top of a house. Eventually layers will have to be removed, else the roof will surely cave in.
You need a structural engineer to tell you how much dead load weight you can safely add to your structure. Period. You need one.
Once you have the answer to that question, you then have an upper limit in terms of weight, and then you'll be able to figure out how much mass you can afford to use in your solution. This forum (and a couple of others) can give you good feedback on how well that solution will perform for you. Then you can decide if it's worth the effort.
Otherwise, we're "guessing" how heavy it can be not to kill anyone, and we're "guessing" how heavy it has to be to achieve your isolation requirements.
Think of the total weight allowance as a budget -- not a monetary one, but a laws of physics one. Find out what you can afford (weightwise), then you can make a plan for what you want to buy (build).
Imagine shopping for a car and not having any idea how much money you can afford to spend......... :roll:
A couple of other points... Yes, not killing anyone is #1 priority, but coming home from work one day and finding your upper floor on your lower floor, even if there are no injuries, would be disasterous beyond description. And don't think that you'd see it coming -- catastrophes like that don't send warning signals... They happen faster than you can say "boo."
--Keith :mrgreen:
Ok, well, lets just forget this.
I am going to build a small booth, and find a way to take the drywall (or most of it) out of the eqaution.
I realize, this is serious, but i dont see how this booth, could come crashing through the floor, in this building. I guess, we will see.
this thing will be as small as i can make it, so i think 6x4.5x6.5, or something like that.
I will not be buildign a room within a room, or floating the floor.
I did some research, on wisperrooms, and, vocalbooths. I dont understand , how this could be such an issue, becuase, they are selling this booths, for this exact purpose, I contacted them about this, and, I am waiting to hear there response.
But, again, lets just forget this. I will fiqure it out.
Take Care.
Post a link to the "whisper room" to which you have been referring, and then we can comment on how it will or will not meet your needs. Hopefully there are specifications that show how much isolation exists at various frequencies.
By the way, I looked at the noise reduction specifications for the Enhanced version of the WhisperRoom (assuming that is the manufacturer you were considering)...
Frequency ( Hertz ): 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000
Reduction ( dB ): 30 44 53 61 67 68