Isolation room in corner of garage

Hello, my name's Jerry I'm a university student who is applying for an entrepreneurial grant to open a project recording studio business in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Details: The location of the studio will be in a detached single car garage that has been completely renovated into a habitable living space. The garage itself is a 2x4 constructing with old panel boarding on the outside layer which is then covered with siding. There is R-12 pink wall insulation installed covered with a vapour barrier and finally 1/2 inch drywall. The garage is 11 ft wide by 21 ft long with a height of 8 ft. The ceiling is semi-cathedral (it angles upwards for about 3.5 ft, levels out for 4 ft, then angles downwards for for 3.5 ft.). The angled ceiling begins at the top of the walls at a height of about 7 ft. The floor is composed of a 2 inch subfloor with R-6 foam insulation inbetween 2x2 framing. The floor is finished with plywood, carpet pad, carpet. The sub lies on a concrete pad. I am in a residential area with pesky neighbors who are within 35-40 ft of the garage. Project: I want to build a small isolated room for recording within the studio (roughly 8x8 ft). My budget is $500-$600 US max. My main concerns for the room are: -decent clarity in the lower frequencies. -enough sound transmission loss to effectively monitor the mix from directly outside the room. -High enough isolation so as not to piss off my neighbours, who are mostly concerned with the drums. -an acoustically "dead" room. Basically, I am only concerned about isolation to the extent that it causes problems with the neighbors (unless isolation also affects acoustic properties). My biggest concern is with getting an accurate acoustic sound from the room. I was planning on building two walls boxing in one of the corners of the room to save on materials. What should I do to the exterior walls to get a high enough STC rating to not annoy neighbours with drums? As for the interior two walls, is one layer of 2x4 framing enough to achieve my goals? Or, should I use a double framed wall with two leafs as described in the diagram posted frequently on the forum. Should I use a staggered stud framing system? Since the two of the four walls will be the exterior walls that are there now, what would you recommend I do to further isolate sound cost-effectively? As for acoustic treatment -does anyone have any suggestions for materials? I value this forum and all your opinions. Thanks! :D PS: I have come across some good, but old free 2x4's from a torn down barn. They are the old actual 2" by 4" dimensions (not 1.5" x3.5"). I would like to use them in the construction of the room.

Hey, Welcome to the forum, I'm originally from Halifax NS, Canada. Don't forget to edit your profile to include you location so that it posts by your name with every post Also read through the stickies, it will take a while, especially: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231 Ah the good old Canadian Grant money. For others reading along... Canada (as opposed to USA) gives out a lot of grant money. I'm not to sure how much more in the category of "entrepreneurial" but as far as giving money to the arts such as "Factor Grants" (money for recording) and the use of the CBC (Canadian Broadcast Corp... kinda government run/sponsored Radio and TV) there's a lot of money to be had and a lot of ways to produce "the arts". OK, so:

I want to build a small isolated room for recording within the studio (roughly 8x8 ft). My budget is $500-$600 US max.

Is that the budget for just the iso room or the whole studio??? 8x8 is a small space and starting with 2 sides the same length is a bad idea for room modes (it makes bad acoustics), even worse with your ceiling at 8 feet too... please read the stickies AND http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html AND Ethan Winner: http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html#bass%20traps ...there are other web sites too. Drums are a mighty beast to sound isolate. Check out Sharwards thread, skip to the end and you'll see his new concrete pour: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2921 I'm not sure if your budget is going to be enough. As for the rest of your questions and ideas please read the stickies above. After a good read through, you'll have a better understanding of the concepts and then be able to ask more specific questions, which usually leads to some real good answers and discussions. Marc

Hi Marc,

guitardad72 wrote:

Is that the budget for just the iso room or the whole studio???

The budget is just for the iso room only. I've read those articles over the past month -great stuff. I guess my question is, more specifically, to what extent do I need to go to get the results I am after which are primarily: not annoying the neighbours with the drums and being able to monitor from the control room with moderate accuracy? I mean, perhaps it would be easier to give me an estimate of the kind of STC rating I would need to achieve in order to realize what I'm after. Then I could apply that to which methods I decide to use for wall construction. I started reading that Ethan article -and it is loonnggg. I will finish it tomorrow seeing as it's already past my bedtime.

OK, A STC number is not really what your looking for although it will give you a ball park number, only kind of. STC was designed to measure the frequency of speach. Although it measures down to 125kH, the bottom is centered at 500Hz and the top at 5K, so it's almost useless for loud music and more specifically the bass drum and anything bass. What you are looking for is LF TL ( low frequencies transmission loss). In general the lower the frequency measured the more MASS AIR MASS construction required to stop the sound and higher (low) frequencies will be taken care of, but any consturction method can have flanking paths which can allow certian frequencies to pass right through... Most on this forum seem to use LF TL @ 50K = ??? (the amount of decibels desired of TL) Drums measure between 95 to 115 DB (in general) Heres a qoute from knightfly:

At lower frequencies, the threshhold of human hearing is around 55 dBa - so, if you're generating 110 dBa, you'll need about 50 dB MINIMUM TL at 50 hZ - this isn't easy but you can get close by using your removed wallboard as inserts between studs and against your outside sheathing - two layers of 5/8 against the sheathing between studs, CAULKED fully with NO AIR GAPS between outer sheathing or between layers, then fully insulated air space, then insulated inner stud frame, then 3 layers of 5/8 wallboard, will give about 45 dB TL at 50 hZ, which means that sounds around 100 dB will just start to be audible on the outside wall.

So, you have to carefully look at your current floor, whether or not you want to rip it up and try and create and isolated slab, your current floor should be creating a big sound leak acting like a drum head and flanking certian frequencies (unless I am miss understanding the type of insulation) AND PLEASE NOTE: floating a floor is not easy, your current budget won't permit it and it would have to be very precisely figured out. Most likely your current slab will do. Floating a floor incorrectly can be disasterious. You are going to want to take off everything on the current walls from the inside to the "old panel boarding" and put beef up layers of drywall inbetween the studs. Drywall is the material of choice. The siding may create a 3rd leaf depending if it's wood or plastic... well more so if there are any air gaps between panel board and siding. Please search for tripple leaf on this site. You should be constructing new 2x4 walls atleat 1" away from the current walls and if you add space "AIR" between walls you will be increasing TL. The ceiling you should consider Green Glue (please do a search on this forum for it)... you can use less drywall with Green Glue between two layers... 4 sheets drywall = 2 sheets of drywall with green glue in between approxamitely!!! This makes sence for the weight you'll be able to place on ceiling joists or truss. Ceiling load is something very important to figure out, don't want to kill any one. Of course ceiling will be MASS AIR MASS. Green glue is about $150 per case, one case will do about 6, 8x4 sheets of drywall... I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Another good source to understand all this is: www.acoustics101.com BUT leave the manufactures suggestions of there own products out and the floating floor cr^p!!! Best advice I can give... buy Rods book: [url=http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1598630342/ref=pe_snp_342/102-4991612-6664139?n=283155]Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros (Paperback) by Rod Gervais [/url] For $30, it will save you money, time and confusion. And to the other members of the forum (Knightfly) how did I do explaining in this post? Marc

Well... sounds like I'm the typical "but it costs too much" kind of guy. Marc, do you think it'd be cheaper to spend my money on treating the entire garage space with bass traps, foam, diffusers etc. Just to get a good sound and then just forget about the isolation. Is it highly frowned upon to use the control room and recording room(s) as one and the same? I know it's a difficult question to answer, but I'm basically asking if there's a half-ass (less expensive) way to treat the two existing exterior walls in the corner of the garage where the room will be. I understand that 3 leaves can actually reduce TL, but, though it may not be the most efficient construction, would I benefit at all from covering the current layer of drywall with another with strapping or resilient channel in between the two layers to create air space? If you think it is possible to treat the entire room as a recording space and control room, let's take the focus towards that idea. Let me know, Much appreciated!

do you think it'd be cheaper to spend my money on treating the entire garage space with bass traps, foam, diffusers etc. Just to get a good sound and then just forget about the isolation

Yes it will be cheaper, no doubt.

Is it highly frowned upon to use the control room and recording room(s) as one and the same?

That's really up to you, many of us go for all-in-one rooms, but that is those of us who work mostly by ourself. I'm doing only one room myself, but I rarely plan to have live drums or other people in my room. Getting a drum sound with drums in the same room and cans is challenging requiring record, playback, record, playback until you get a decent sound. It's more time consuming. It most likely would be frowned upon by clients shopping around studios if your competors have have a live drum and vocal iso rooms.

I know it's a difficult question to answer, but I'm basically asking if there's a half-ass (less expensive) way to treat the two existing exterior walls in the corner of the garage where the room will be. I understand that 3 leaves can actually reduce TL, but, though it may not be the most efficient construction, would I benefit at all from covering the current layer of drywall with another with strapping or resilient channel in between the two layers to create air space?

Dang right that's a difficult question. Maybe adding drywall to the existing? Maybe add another wall inside existing. I can't wrap my brain around that idea... sorry.

If you think it is possible to treat the entire room as a recording space and control room, let's take the focus towards that idea. Let me know,

Yup, lot's have done it including Rod who wrote the book I mentioned and Ethan Winners Room. I know you've spent a while reading through this web site. I'm almost embarased to say how long it took me to grasp some things... sound isolation and acoustics is not an easy thing to grasp. It takes several read throughs, you have to sort through some garbage which may not apply to you or could be totally wrong or not cost effective. Again I'll piont you to the above links looking to make the maybe one-room acoustically sound. Don't forget to search through the entire forum on topics and consider buying Rods Book!!! Marc

guitardad72 wrote:

Yes it will be cheaper, no doubt.

I think for my purposes, I should go for the all-in-one room. That said, would you be able to give me a ball park estimate of how much I'll be spending to treat the garage acoustically. I would be dealing with roughly 670 square feet of walls and ceiling. I was thinking about using panels to create angles on the parallel walls to reduce some of the acoustic problems. Do you know where I can download some of that software that everyone on here uses so I could draw up some of my ideas? Thanks Marc

Aloha Jer, Congrats on your studio build. :D I am going through the process of acoustically treating my room as you are about to. If you care to, you can find the info, guidance and advice I was given that might be helpful to your build here: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... ght=#15598 http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4091

I think for my purposes, I should go for the all-in-one room. That said, would you be able to give me a ball park estimate of how much I'll be spending to treat the garage acoustically. I would be dealing with roughly 670 square feet of walls and ceiling.

Depends on what materials cost where you are. When you consider that you could possibly be building at least: four corner absorbers (floor to ceiling if possible), two to four side wall absorbers, a front wall absorber, a rear wall absorber, and one to two ceiling absorbers (cloud/s), you can then estimate how much materials (insulation - rockwool, 703, lumber, cloth, nails/screws/staples/glue) you'll be needing and then figure out your costs.

I was thinking about using panels to create angles on the parallel walls to reduce some of the acoustic problems.

SAE - http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html Wall Units - http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

Do you know where I can download some of that software that everyone on here uses so I could draw up some of my ideas?

Sketchup - http://www.sketchup.com/ SmartDraw - http://www.smartdraw.com/exp/srd/home/ Hope this helps, Aloha 8)

Hey Kendale, Thanks for the great resources! I've read them once, but it helps to go back over them as my perspective on my project grows with input from you guys. Another question popped into my head just now. Is the acoustic treatment in a control room typically the same as in a recording room? Pretty important question I suppose if I'm doing a one room studio setup.

Here's a simple diagram that shows where there are two windows in the garage. Any ideas as to how to abide by your design and accomodate the window and door at the back?

Aloha Jer,

Thanks for the great resources!

Glad you found them helpful. :wink:

Is the acoustic treatment in a control room typically the same as in a recording room?

I remember reading a fairly recent post on a similar if not the same question (I think answered by Steve/Knightfly) somewhere, but it escapes me at the moment. Perhaps a search might prove fruitful.

Here's a simple diagram that shows where there are two windows in the garage. Any ideas as to how to abide by your design and accomodate the window and door at the back?

If you could provide your room measurements that would be really helpful. (L x W x H) Aloha 8)

11 ft wide x 21 ft long x 8 ft high.

Aloha Jer, Something like this perhaps? Keep in mind, that acoustical treatment does not improve your isolation, but does greatly improve your control room environment. Aloha 8)

I'm hesitant to chop the room up at all if I can avoid it. Just because I want to have as big a space as possible. Is there any way I could treat the door and window to get a similar effect as your originally proposed studio diagram?

Your room, at its original dimensions, is not bad modally down to about 50 hZ; below that, it's a bit bass light. This is considering all three types of room modes, not just axial. For a one-room studio, you need to consider building some portable treatments to be used during mixdowns - this is because for mixing you want a deader sounding room - otherwise, you'll tend to think there's enough 'verb in your mix when it's really the room you're listening in. Check the "stickies" in the Acoustics forum for some ideas on treatments... Steve

I've read the stickies and since I can't find OC 700 series panels I've decided to substitute with Fibrex 1280 panels for my bass traps. My question is on Bob's page: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm He lists FBX 1280 2" thickness at certain absorption coefficient that is more than the FBX 1280 4" thickness absorption coefficient divided by two. So, is it better to layer 2" thicknesses of this product or does it matter?

At lower frequencies, the threshhold of human hearing is around 55 dBa - so, if you're generating 110 dBa, you'll need about 50 dB MINIMUM TL at 50 hZ - this isn't easy but you can get close by using your removed wallboard as inserts between studs and against your outside sheathing - two layers of 5/8 against the sheathing between studs, CAULKED fully with NO AIR GAPS between outer sheathing or between layers, then fully insulated air space, then insulated inner stud frame, then 3 layers of 5/8 wallboard, will give about 45 dB TL at 50 hZ, which means that sounds around 100 dB will just start to be audible on the outside wall. Can some one help me under stand the above? What do you mean "inserts between studs" ? Do you have a picture or something I can use for reference?

I thought I recognized that quote... It's from my project thread and was in Steve's initial response last January. Yes, there are tons of pictures in the rest of my thread. Jump to page 24 of my thread to see pictures of the "beef up" effort. I know my thread is long and meandering and difficult to follow... But it's a true representation of the journey I have been on for the last year and a half and counting. It may be time consuming to get through, but you'll learn a lot and hopefully step in fewer land mines than I did. 8) --Keith :mrgreen: