if i made all the surfaces inside the production room i am building (similar SAE school control room shape) have that rough sprayed concrete type surface, would this help me in the longrun when it comes to the acoustics?
if i made all the surfaces inside the production room i am building (similar SAE school control room shape) have that rough sprayed concrete type surface, would this help me in the longrun when it comes to the acoustics?
Acoustics? Mmm, probably...not. :wink:
I am in the stage of acoustically treating the space I am in, minus splayed walls and concrete construction. If you care to check it out: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4091
To try and state this in an inadequate and overly simplified way: in addition to the correct room geometry and room dimensions, it is also desirable to obtain a similar reverberation time across the frequency spectrum.
Some of the treatments used to accomplish this are low, mid and high frequency absorbers, panel absorbers, and resonators to name a few.
From the SAE site:
By using different construction techniques it is possible to treat the walls so they absorb sound at various frequencies. The following pages deal with each of the frequency bands-high, mid and low. By using these construction techniques you can dramatically change the acoustics of a room. High frequencies are the easiest to absorb and it gets harder as the frequency lowers. Most home studio enthusiasts only seem to treat the high frequencies in the room yet it is the mid and low frequencies that cause all the room problems.
If you study the treatment for the low and mid frequencies you will notice that the high frequencies are not affected by this construction and it is possible to have a room where all frequencies have a similar reverberation time which is the idea of the whole exercise.
Here's a good place to start: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
Click on the left hand tab that says "absorbers" and then check out the tabs at the top of the page.
Here's a few diagrams for DIY wall units: http://johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm
And finally, here's some important info from the forum guidelines: "Edit your profile to include your location. This is very important, because this is a worldwide resource, and as such, material costs and availability vary widely. For example, masonry is cheaper than gypsum in some parts of the globe, whereas it's the exact opposite in other regions." Thanks!
Hope this helps to give you a good place to start. :D
Aloha 8)
Aloha my friend!
Thanks so much for your link, it's given me so much food for thought. I have so much to decide on now.
I will ask you more questions regarding your panel treatments very soon.
In the meantime (where i'm currently stuck) are your floors laminates, or solid timber? What are the pros vs cons of a shiny floor surface as opposed to carpet?
Many thanks and happy new year.
Aloha and a Happy New Year to you as well!
Ah yes, decisions, decisions. Life is full of decisions, yes? :wink:
are your floors laminates, or solid timber? What are the pros vs cons of a shiny floor surface as opposed to carpet?
My floors are red oak slats over plywood sub flooring over post and pier. In addition to the side and rear absorbers, I have an absorbent cloud treatment planned for over the mixing area.
I think that some of the pros of having a hard reflective floor/absorbent ceiling are:
- first and foremost, having worked in rooms that were, shall we say, "less live," I prefer the sound of a room that retains some of the "liveness" and "airiness" qualities, but it is just my personal preference, yours may differ and be perfectly fine for your needs.
- it is easier to lay down (and remove) area rugs to attenuate highs if necessary than it is to rip up an installed carpet or the messyness of laying down plywood/flooring in order to liven up a dead room.
- the mix chair rolls around from mix position to equipment rack to PC station alot easier! :D
- it is alot easier to vacuum up after my dog shedding her fur all over the place
I have to say that I love the look and feel of a nice, plush carpet, but prefer having a livelier sound when it comes to recording/mixdown.
Looking forward to your decision. :D
Aloha 8)
I think I will go with the most cost effective solution for the floors.
This is a longterm experiment, but I do not want to spend all my money and the result of it being financially locked into a particular solution.
Although I worked in the studio you see below and it was extremely dead.. to the point it was scary in there unless the door was open to bring some verb back in.
Recovered from web.archive.org — originally hosted at http://www.gtxs.net/images/room_b_1.jpg
I've been having a look at the following link: http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm and it seems this is the device you have used for your side absorber panels. I will go with this for the bass traps in the corners but this humble 24 year old lost in the world of acoustics has a few questions for you...
1) In the link on the John's DIY page, it refers to insulation.. what insulation did you use?
2) It also refers to having MDF sheets on the back. If the back of the device I will build for the corners is a well coated drywall/plasterboard, is the MDF backing neccessary? ... to further elaborate, is it just to seal the sound in there, or is it there because that product assists in resonating the correct frequencies for the insulation to absorb?
Once again, many thanks as it is quite a crucial time in my planning/construction.
Aloha,
Wow, your old "office" had some nice...uh... furniture! :wink:
this humble 24 year old lost in the world of acoustics has a few questions
You and me both! That's one of the many reasons why I appreciate this forum and the guys that contribute and share what they've learned along the way.
what insulation did you use?
I went with Roxul AFB Acoustical Fire Batts, 3" x 24" x 48", 2.5 lb/cu.ft
If the back of the device I will build for the corners is a well coated drywall/plasterboard, is the MDF backing neccessary? ... to further elaborate, is it just to seal the sound in there, or is it there because that product assists in resonating the correct frequencies for the insulation to absorb?
I know this has been covered somewhere in the forum, but at the moment it escapes me. A search on the topic might prove fruitful, or perhaps those much more learned than I might assist.
Hope this helps.
Aloha 8)
Aloha,
Wow, your old "office" had some nice furniture! :wink:
this humble 24 year old lost in the world of acoustics has a few questions
You and me both! That's one of the many reasons why I appreciate this forum and the guys that contribute and share what they've learned along the way.
what insulation did you use?
I went with Roxul AFB Acoustical Fire Batts, 3" x 24" x 48", 2.5 lb/cu.ft
If the back of the device I will build for the corners is a well coated drywall/plasterboard, is the MDF backing neccessary? ... to further elaborate, is it just to seal the sound in there, or is it there because that product assists in resonating the correct frequencies for the insulation to absorb?
I know this has been covered somewhere in the forum, but at the moment it escapes me. A search on the topic might prove fruitful, or perhaps those much more learned than I might assist.
Hope this helps.
Aloha 8)
Well all I can say is thanks. Your studio thread and your answers here have basically helped me (not neccessarily put my mind at ease because i have to do so much work for it to come to fruition) ... but now I know exactly how to make the bass traps and stuff. That's really rockin!
This site is full of so much useful info, just it's in one big heap of a mess... and to be honest, some advice from the powers that be earlier on could have helped me avoid some mistakes I have already made in the construction phase. I made some 3d videos and jpegs of info with details, but nobody responeded until you did. So again cheers.
Yeah the old studio has some very nice furniture. (Literally.. the furniture was great and so was the equipment). I have some of the good things which that studio also has and I can't wait to start using them without fear of dust eating away at them.
Soon I will decide on which option to go with the floor and now that I have learnt some more about bass traps, I will rethink my lighting position so I can put a baffle above me.
I'll put up a blog with all the pictures I have taken of all the work so far... over the next week I will have the air conditioning systems for the building installed, room painted, doors installed, build the bass traps and side panels, prepare everything so the last thing I deal with is the floor being put in... it feels like cooking a feast.. everything has to be perfectly executed so it all comes out as one massive delicious meal!
Aloha!
Aloha,
Wow, your old "office" had some nice furniture! :wink:
this humble 24 year old lost in the world of acoustics has a few questions
You and me both! That's one of the many reasons why I appreciate this forum and the guys that contribute and share what they've learned along the way.
what insulation did you use?
I went with Roxul AFB Acoustical Fire Batts, 3" x 24" x 48", 2.5 lb/cu.ft
If the back of the device I will build for the corners is a well coated drywall/plasterboard, is the MDF backing neccessary? ... to further elaborate, is it just to seal the sound in there, or is it there because that product assists in resonating the correct frequencies for the insulation to absorb?
I know this has been covered somewhere in the forum, but at the moment it escapes me. A search on the topic might prove fruitful, or perhaps those much more learned than I might assist.
Hope this helps.
Aloha 8)
G'day!
I checked out the Roxul products (via web).. but being in Australia I cannot get this. As for mineral fibre I can get "Rockwool" .. do you know if the two products compare in terms of rigidness and also acoustic properties?
I'm thinking of using rockwool under my floor boards as well... bad idea?
I checked out the Roxul products (via web).. but being in Australia I cannot get this. As for mineral fibre I can get "Rockwool" .. do you know if the two products compare in terms of rigidness and also acoustic properties?
I found a few links for Insulco in your area under the building products section. Would any of these help?
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1287http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2545http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1547
Also, John Sayers is on your continent, and John Garnder is in nearby NZ. Perhaps they might know of a source in your area?
As far as I know, mineral wool/rockwool is the same thing, or least will accomplish the same task. Look for 2"-3" thick/2.5 pcf.
I'm thinking of using rockwool under my floor boards as well
One of the moderators, Aaronw also used rookwool under his flooring as well as in the walls. Be sure to check out his thread, as it covers quite a few design and construction topics. http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=839
Hope these help.
Aloha 8)
I checked out the Roxul products (via web).. but being in Australia I cannot get this. As for mineral fibre I can get "Rockwool" .. do you know if the two products compare in terms of rigidness and also acoustic properties?
I found a few links for Insulco in your area under the building products section. Would any of these help?
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1287http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2545http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1547
Also, John Sayers is on your continent, and John Garnder is in nearby NZ. Perhaps they might know of a source in your area?
As far as I know, mineral wool/rockwool is the same thing, or least will accomplish the same task. Look for 2"-3" thick/2.5 pcf.
I'm thinking of using rockwool under my floor boards as well
One of the moderators, Aaronw also used rookwool under his flooring as well as in the walls. Be sure to check out his thread, as it covers quite a few design and construction topics. http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=839
Hope these help.
Aloha 8)
Thanks Sharward and thanks Ken.
I can choose between both the Insulco products and also a product here called Rockwool 450 which is an industrial grade form of rockwool. I think I will go with the Rockwool 450 even though it costs over two times as much as the other stuff, I was told this is what factories and machinery companies use to insulate sound.
I have only one more question which is to do with the way I arrange my bass absorbers in my room. ...I have a room with an elongated shape. I do however have angled walls and an angled ceiling. The problem is in the fact that I cannot put a basstrap in one of the far back corners because I have built a door/frame too close to the edge of the wall.
No idea what to do about this, but I have thought (and i dont know if this is possible) about making the acoustics of the room artificially smaller.
The gif I have below will help you understand. The red bits are things I have yet to build, so theyre not LOCKED in yet. Any feedback on my dillema would be appreciated.
one more question which is to do with the way I arrange my bass absorbers in my room
If I understand this correctly, the corner traps described at: http://johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm work most efficiently when placed...in a corner! :wink: (as in for example, the area where the front left corner/front wall/floor to ceiling meet rather than in the middle of the room.)
In lieu of placing said corner traps in the rear corners of the room (because of aforementioned door), and depending on your ceiling height and how much overhead room you have/need available, is it possible to that you could place a similar design along the corner where your side walls meet the ceiling, and/or where the rear corners meet the ceiling (above the door.) http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
Granted, being that you do have a sloped ceiling, this would call for a modification to the design, but, if constructed properly and (very!!!)securely attached to those areas, you might be able to address some of your bass trapping needs.
By the way, just how tall is your ceiling, and is the slope lowest at the front of the room?
While it may go without saying, I would be remiss if I were to not mention that it is no fun, let alone a major liability, if your traps happen to come down on yours/clients/friends heads, not to mention totally unacceptable. :shock: Be safe. :wink:
Another thought comes to mind: Where does your rear door lead to? Is it possible to open outwards?
And finally, would it be acceptable for you to position the couch forward a bit and add another trap to the rear wall? (see attachements)
Hope these help get the creative juices flowing.
Aloha 8)
I will rethink my lighting position so I can put a baffle above me.
Heres a few shots of what I'm trying to figure out how to accomplish.
If you do come up with a design, I'd be interested in seeing how it's done.
Aloha 8)
Image not preserved: glEnn Studios Control Room.JPG
one more question which is to do with the way I arrange my bass absorbers in my room
If I understand this correctly, the corner traps described at: http://johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm work most efficiently when placed...in a corner! :wink: (as in for example, the area where the front left corner/front wall/floor to ceiling meet rather than in the middle of the room.)
In lieu of placing said corner traps in the rear corners of the room (because of aforementioned door), and depending on your ceiling height and how much overhead room you have/need available, is it possible to that you could place a similar design along the corner where your side walls meet the ceiling, and/or where the rear corners meet the ceiling (above the door.) http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
Granted, being that you do have a sloped ceiling, this would call for a modification to the design, but, if constructed properly and (very!!!)securely attached to those areas, you might be able to address some of your bass trapping needs.
By the way, just how tall is your ceiling, and is the slope lowest at the front of the room?
The ceiling slope is as follows:
Front of the room height: 209cm
Back of the room height: 238cm
Length of the ceiling (depth of room): 525cm
Above the door where those corners meet, there is about 27cm of gap.
I can definately move the couch forward and build an absorber behind them. I noticed that in the diagram you showed me, the angled slots are BEHIND the insulation. Does this mean that the angled slots are not visible and that the insulation is covered by a cloth ? If so then I will start to work on that stuff immediately.
In the 27cm gap i mentioned above the door (which i will make swing out as per your suggestion) I will make some small absorbers, but I don't know how effective they will be due to the limited size. I hope its a case of something is better than nothing.
While it may go without saying, I would be remiss if I were to not mention that it is no fun, let alone a major liability, if your traps happen to come down on yours/clients/friends heads, not to mention totally unacceptable. :shock: Be safe. :wink:
Another thought comes to mind: Where does your rear door lead to? Is it possible to open outwards?
And finally, would it be acceptable for you to position the couch forward a bit and add another trap to the rear wall? (see attachements)
Hope these help get the creative juices flowing.
Aloha 8)
As for your baffles with the halogens recessed into them. I am sure I could whip some ideas up for you. The only thing I am worried about is the heat conveyed by the lights and how the cloth in front of the baffles can deal with them. Give me some time and I will most definately reward your advice with some of my own.
Aloha!!
The only thing I am worried about is the heat conveyed by the lights and how the cloth in front of the baffles can deal with them.
My concern as well. I sent out a pm to forum member that has covered this issue and will relay it on to you if/when there is a reply. I appreciate your offer as well. Much mahalos! :D
Here's another diagram that might help clarify the center portion of the absorber. I seem to remember a post somewhere that detailed this type of rear wall absorber. I dont remember if the "angled slots" were to support the insulation between them or if they served as a type of resonator function.
Does this mean that the angled slots are not visible and that the insulation is covered by a cloth ?
It would appear so, at least that's how I read it. I think...that they would be somewhat similar in design as the side absorbers with angled slots/slats (instead of plywood facing) mentioned earlier, with an extra layer of insulation and exterior cloth facing. My apologies, as it's been awhile since I've read it. Perhaps another search is in order...
So, out of curiosity, are the ceiling mounted bass traps a viable alternative being that your ceiling height is what it is?
Also, due to the space alotted, I'm not sure if the bass trap above the door would be large enough to contribute effectively. Perhaps another approach there might be investigated.
It is interesting to note that your room dimensions are very close to what mine are turning out to be as the acoustic treatments go in. At the moment, I have about (L) 4.2m x (W) 2.4m x (H) 2.6m/3m (sloped ceiling) with the front absorber/soffits, side absorbers, and planned rear absorbers in place. I stand to lose about 20cm of height after the cloud/lighting is installed, but no worries as I'm a fairly short guy. :wink:
Looking forward to your thoughts and advice.
Aloha 8)
The only thing I am worried about is the heat conveyed by the lights and how the cloth in front of the baffles can deal with them.
My concern as well. I sent out a pm to forum member that has covered this issue and will relay it on to you if/when there is a reply. I appreciate your offer as well. Much mahalos! :D
Here's another diagram that might help clarify the center portion of the absorber. I seem to remember a post somewhere that detailed this type of rear wall absorber. I dont remember if the "angled slots" were to support the insulation between them or if they served as a type of resonator function.
Does this mean that the angled slots are not visible and that the insulation is covered by a cloth ?
It would appear so, at least that's how I read it. I think...that they would be somewhat similar in design as the side absorbers with angled slots/slats (instead of plywood facing) mentioned earlier, with an extra layer of insulation and exterior cloth facing. My apologies, as it's been awhile since I've read it. Perhaps another search is in order...
So, out of curiosity, are the ceiling mounted bass traps a viable alternative being that your ceiling height is what it is?
Also, due to the space alotted, I'm not sure if the bass trap above the door would be large enough to contribute effectively. Perhaps another approach there might be investigated.
It is interesting to note that your room dimensions are very close to what mine are turning out to be as the acoustic treatments go in. At the moment, I have about (L) 4.2m x (W) 2.4m x (H) 2.6m/3m (sloped ceiling) with the front absorber/soffits, side absorbers, and planned rear absorbers in place. I stand to lose about 20cm of height after the cloud/lighting is installed, but no worries as I'm a fairly short guy. :wink:
Looking forward to your thoughts and advice.
Aloha 8)
I sent the pitures to a design friend of mine and he said that the low profile halogen lights emit only about 50c of heat on the outside and that most fabrics should be fire rated and withstand that temperature.
As long as the fabric doesnt go near the globe and that the light fixture itself is recessed then it should be ok.
As the LPSwist Cloud Design 1.JPG image suggests, it is feasible to have a solid structure in the middle of the baffle, so i will work on some kind of design that incorporates a center piece like they do. Won't be making them out of such chunky wood though, as I don't think its neccessary for our purposes and for the sake of keeping the cost/weight down.
With the absorbers in place in the ceiling, I feel that the room is still going to be rather habitable as I am also rather short and the back half of the room behind all the equipment is obviously taller than the rest, so it should be fine because if I do get other musicans, they will mainly hang in the background on the couch...
I'll try my bestest to build one prototype of the ceiling baffles tomorrow.
Cheers mate!
Aloha Kendale
I went and bought supplies including insulation to make one cloud with the recessed halogen lighting.
Will have some kind of idea as to what's possible within the next day or two.
Aloha,
Hey! Those pics of your cloud unit are looking good! :D You work fast!
If I may, I've got a bunch of questions for you:
- How wide is that center piece with the light fixtures?
- How big are those light fixtures - 3" - 4"?
- How heavy is the unit at this point?
Again, thanks for sharing!
Aloha 8)
Aloha,
One more thing though, you may want to shrink those pics down a little, say about 700 pixels wide? :wink: (Before we get caught. :shock::wink::D )
Aloha 8)
Aloha,
One more thing though, you may want to shrink those pics down a little, say about 700 pixels wide? :wink: (Before we get caught. :shock::wink::D )
Aloha 8)
Done! :oops::P
here's tech specs on the whole thing -
The box:
2 side panels - 1320mm x 140mm (51.96" x 5.51")
2 top/bottom panels - 605mm x 140mm (23.81" x 5.51")
Center panel width - 140mm (5.51")
Lights diamater 72mm (2.83")
I used internal angle brackets to hold the box together and the center bar is nailed in.
Aloha,
Thanks for the specs. :wink:
Say, in studying your design, I started to wonder, what kind of insulation are you planning to use in that, and how are you/we going to keep it from sagging/ falling out of the frame?
Some examples/suggestions I've seen/read/comes to mind:
- nylon fence webbing
- string or cord to hold rockwool upright
- perforated metal sheets
- Closet Maid shelving (overkill)
- Open weave cane webbing
- weed cloth
- wood/vinyl lattice
Aloha 8)
Aloha,
Thanks for the specs. :wink:
Say, in studying your design, I started to wonder, what kind of insulation are you planning to use in that, and how are you/we going to keep it from sagging/ falling out of the frame?
Some examples/suggestions I've seen/read/comes to mind:
- nylon fence webbing
- string or cord to hold rockwool upright
- perforated metal sheets
- Closet Maid shelving (overkill)
- Open weave cane webbing
- weed cloth
- wood/vinyl lattice
Aloha 8)
the rockwool is semi rigid in that it holds its shape fairly well unless you pull it apart.
The rockwool I bought comes in small blocks and I can fit two of them perfectly in the structure I made. I actually used those dimensions after having made a rough version based on the rockwool shape/size.
I have some thin Pine which I can put horizontally across the front and then put the fabric over the pine slats. I could use string, and I also have metal wire .. all of those options should work I think.
Man, this thing grew legs and ran away before I noticed, sorry; any un-resolved questions still? And, which type corner traps did you want to know about having backs on? Steve
