Soundproof booth for saxophone practice

Hi, I'm currently considering the different options i have in order to considerably reduce the noise i make when i practice on my saxophone. I would like to either buy a prefab booth or build one from scratch. I hope to find the necessary information in order to choose between these 2 solutions thanks to the help i'll find on this forum. From my experience, playing a horn in an urban environment has always been a bit of a challenge and very often a nuisance to some of the neighbours...in fact, in all the flats that i have lived in, there's always been just ONE intolerant noise-freak nazi, but one is enough to make practicing a hellish experience. Actually, i have come to realize that in my current situation, my practicing time has suffered greatly from the stress this situation causes whenever i pick up my horn to blow a few notes even if there'll be no complaints during that particular session, i'll still be too inhibited and self-conscious to really enjoy playing freely. So i would like to purchase a booth not only to satisfy the odd enraged neighbour stereotype one can encounter when playing sax living in an appartment but also - and most importantly - to buy myself the peace of mind i need to concentrate on my music and not on the surrounding environment and broomstick thumps on the floorboard. At this point, i know little to nothing about acoustics and soundproofing. Make that nothing. So far, I've contacted Whisperroom and am waiting for a price quote for a possible delivery from the UK to Belgium, although i suspect the shipping will be out of price. Nevertheless, i'm just looking into it to see how plausible that solution is. This is about as far as i can go on my own. I'm waiting for their answer. Regardless of weither i build it or buy it - appart from the obvious expectation that it effectively muffles my sound down to a very low volume - i would need it to be dismountable since i'll be moving out of my current appartment in a year and will probably be moving out again after that. You get the idea, i'm not looking for an irremovable booth but rather a quality booth i can precauciously dismantle for further use elsewhere. Regarding my Whisperroom inquiry, here is the model that i would buy if it were to satisfy my acoustical and financial requirements : http://www.whisperroom.com/big564.html#photo. So basically, if i would come to build a booth, i think these specs would suit me (4'x 4') with about the same height as shown on the photo. My budget would also be around 2500$. So to resume i would expect the booth to have 1° unquestionnable soundproofing muffling/deading etc... qualities (i know absolutes are not possible) or at least the most effective possible for my price range (and i hope that means very effective:)). And i would need it to be 2° dismountable for further use in other appartments i'm likely to occupy. If you have any further questions i'll try to answer the best as i can within reason.

Last I checked, Whisperroom's were closer to TWICE that price for anything usable (their STANDARD booths don't do very well, you need the double walled version for any SERIOUS isolation) - For your budget (and MUCH easier portability :wink: ) have you considered something like the Yamaha WX wind controller? I know, it's not a REAL instrument - but it fits within your budget and NO ONE will hear it but you, and you can move it in about 3 minutes - http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... CT,00.html http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... CT,00.html The controller AND the tone module would cost about HALF your budget instead of TWICE. Just a thought... Steve

Never used one of these so I dont know how good they work, but it would work for you price wise. http://www.soundsuckers.com/4x4.htm#4x4 Fill

their STANDARD booths don't do very well, you need the double walled version for any SERIOUS isolation

hmmmm, sounds like you're saying their booths aren't that good...don't you think that eventhough you would hear the sax from within the same room, there would be less chances of the sound managing its way through the neigbouring walls ? I've heard some good stuff about these standard booths as well as some more crititical remarks regarding its reliablity. I'm interested by both sides of the story in order to make the right decision for me. But baring in mind that the shipping from UK (i'm not even considering shipping from the US to Europe!) might be quite hefty, i was thinking that maybe with my approx. budget of +- 2500$ (which i can bend either way) i could come up with a selfmade booth with better isolation and better quality materials involved cause that way i could shift all my ressources in the materials department (which means i wouldn't have to pay for labour and shipping as for these booths)...it's just an idea but i would need some expert advice here.

have you considered something like the Yamaha WX wind controller?

My answer to that is definitely no. This is a very poor substitute, hell it's not even a sax, this won't help me in anyway to practice my tone, overtones, action, breath control (actually ;)) on a REAL sax is quite a different league, exercise my chops, etc... It would be like asking a pianist to play with a synth from now on...won't work for me. Pennywizz6,

Never used one of these so I dont know how good they work, but it would work for you price wise. http://www.soundsuckers.com/4x4.htm#4x4

Thanks for the link, unfortunately this is kinda the same problem i was exposing with the Whisperrooms namely the shipping cost from US to Europe. Plus they're about the same price as the others. Could anyone testify on the quality of these booths ?

sweetchops wrote:

have you considered something like the Yamaha WX wind controller?

My answer to that is definitely no. This is a very poor substitute, hell it's not even a sax, this won't help me in anyway to practice my tone, overtones, action, breath control (actually ;)) on a REAL sax is quite a different league, exercise my chops, etc... It would be like asking a pianist to play with a synth from now on...won't work for me.

I hear you -- I'm often asked, "Why don't you just get an electronic drum set?" While they are fun, and if money and square footage were no object, I'd probably have one, in addition to a real drum kit. --Keith :mrgreen:

I agree with your comments that it's nowhere near the same thing; I only threw that out there because of your budget, which won't be enough for a pre-made booth. I also think that, unless you play BARITONE sax, a single walled booth (in ADDITION to your existing walls) would be enough to tame your sound - still, MUCH more expensive to buy AND ship than to just build, assuming you have the abilities. The downside of building yourself is making it portable; there are some fairly tricky joints used in the Whisperroom booths, I'm not sure I would have much luck duplicating this (and I have a LOT of tools, as well as being somewhat of a crazy inventor) Still, if you REALLY can get a single wall whisperroom shipped to you for your budget, for your intended purpose it should work... Steve

I hear you -- I'm often asked, "Why don't you just get an electronic drum set?" While they are fun, and if money and square footage were no object, I'd probably have one, in addition to a real drum kit.

Keith your remark's right on the money so to speak :) In the same vein, i would consider a Wind Controller only for exploring different acoustical possibilities my ordinary sax doesn't offer, but certainly not as a full time - let alone part time - substitute for the real deal ;) I'm really thinking this whole booth issue over. Although i haven't yet received the price quote for the Whipserroom shipping I'm kinda leaning towards the "do-it-yourself" option. The main reason being that - from what i've read in the different topics - with any given budget (generally speaking) the outcome is usually better quality wise when you buy your own material, right ? From what i understand, chances are that it couldl even be cheaper AND better than the whisperroom. Knightfly, what exactly do you mean by not being able to make it portable ? Should i choose to build it what would possibly prevent me from dismantling/unscrewing it carefuly to re-assemble it elsewhere ? Please give me hope ! Also, i think i would hire a carpenter of some kind to make sure things are done correctly. I was thinking maybe i could measure the pitch/decibels of my sax (tenor btw not bari :)) and according to the outcome target what sound killing materials i need... (?) Is that a feasible idea to start ? Budget wise, please tell me 2500$ is good. What materials would you recommend for a high pitched sax sound ? I'm saying this because i guess i would be looking for different materials were i a bass player for example...

Building a "take-down" booth is doable; you just need to use different materials for mass than you would for a permanent booth, and find a method of sealing between panels that WILL allow you to disassemble and move them. And yes, $2500 will go a LOT further this way than it will for buying and shipping - it's been a while since I've looked at whisperrooms, but I don't remember ANY of them being that cheap even WITHOUT shipping. Just checked their site, and the model you linked costs $2690 USD WITHOUT shipping; the ENHANCED version (double wall) costs nearly twice that, and would be about twice as heavy as well. I won't have enough time soon to draw necessary details, but hopefully in a few days - you may be able to build a heavy (1" MDF) single wall booth that, in combinations with your apartment walls, would attenuate sax enough to work for you. If you can post an MP3 file of you playing your sax, I can do a spectrum analysis which would help figure out what main frequencies need to be conrolled more... Steve

Building a "take-down" booth is doable; you just need to use different materials for mass than you would for a permanent booth, and find a method of sealing between panels that WILL allow you to disassemble and move them

Now i was just thinking...if i choose to go for a "permanent" booth instead, what would prevent me from moving the whole thing (could i have it moved by professionals for instance) ? Is it too heavy (what's the average weight of these things (say a 120-120-200 cm)) ? Is it fragile, would it break ? Bare in mind i have no background in this domain, so i'm kinda discovering as we go on :roll: I guess the way i'm gonna go depends on the advice and experience the users of this forum are willing to share : "take-down" or "permanent" ?

I won't have enough time soon to draw necessary details, but hopefully in a few days

Ok, no prob. I'm interested to find out though. Keep in mind my budget can be expandable if really necessary.

you may be able to build a heavy (1" MDF) single wall booth that, in combinations with your apartment walls, would attenuate sax enough to work for you

I'm pretty sure it'll have to be a 4 sided fully closed booth. The configuration of my walls wouldn't allow any other solution. Knightfly, I'll try sending you a recording of my sax this week (and thanks for all the advice up to now!).

sweetchops wrote:

If I choose to go for a "permanent" booth instead, what would prevent me from moving the whole thing (could i have it moved by professionals for instance) ?

Where would the booth be located when finished? What are the doorway sizes leading to the outside? :shock: I'm betting once it is asssembled, it will be too large to be able to leave the room in one piece... :roll:

I'm betting once it is asssembled, it will be too large to be able to leave the room in one piece... Rolling Eyes

Yeah you're right, it didn't even occur to me :oops: I guess it's because my mind is so fixed on it being really good soundproof wise i kinda left the door width "detail" out :?

Ok, for practical reasons i can't come up with any recording but nevermind, i suggest we work with the admitted frequency range of the tenor sax which is pretty much the same for all tenors. There won't be any big surprise there, my sax will very likely be in this range. I've checked different websites and i've found that the admitted frequency spectrum - from low to high range (or the other way round i don't really know) - would be around +- 110Hz - 630 Hz. This should help i hope. For reminders, i'm looking for a 4 wall booth, dismantable and as effective as possible in dampening the sound for the neighbours (---> what materials?)

Must i add something else ? Please tell me if i wasn't complete enough.

I'd stick with steves idea of a take down booth. I think of it like a play set. you build each wall, the floor and the ceiling. then have them bolt together with neoprene on the ends of the wall and ceiling pcs (for sealing purposes) and neoprene on the top outer edge and bottom of the flooring section - floating and again sealing the pcs together. Use Lag Bolts or Carriage Bolts and Washer to bolt the thing together and you should be just fine. I would finish both sides with drywall and use hanging tratments or velcro mounted treatments on the interior surface to mount absorption. If you built it with 4 walls of varying lengths you end up with a non symmtrical unit that should sound really good. :) I actually built something similar for my first Remote Recording truck (I was broke and couldnt buy a 20' truck so I built something to SLIDE into a Uhaul.)

I have no experience in building these kind of things. And since obviously i have no blueprints, i wouldn't know where to start. As i have said i would like to get the best possible materials for my needs (ie frequency range of sax) within my budget which seemingly is ample enough. I know you can't spell everything out for me and i've been doing some research by myself but as i said i wouldn't know what to start with and how. So in no particular order here are a few questions...i will certainly come up with more, and i most certainly have missed important points due to my lack of knowledge in this matter so please fill me in with all the advice you judge necessary (more than welcome). I'm just getting acquainted with the "theoretical" side and i must admit it's still quite blurry in my mind. I'm not always sure what i'm talking about. Just trying to get hold of a few concepts but i'm not certain i understand the whole process of the construction... - To start with, what walls ? From what i've read wood is not a good absorbant, so do i get drywall/sheetrock/gypsum ? Are there different types ? Any particular thickness (ie using different thickness may be better?)? Simple question, how do i assemble a leaf so it stays together !? Afterwards, how do i fix the walls together ? - What exactly is a leaf ? Is it the different layers i use for one wall ? How many sheets of drywall should compose my leaf ? Is the spring, the airspace left in the middle of my wall ? Should the spring be filled with something absorbant too, like mineral wool,thermafiber, rigid fibreglass ? - I should avoid dimensions that are multiples of each other. - Concerning the take down side which is essential in my case...what mechanism can i use? Just screws ? Don't i have to use corner beads or something like that, and then seal it with some caulk ? But in that case how can i take it down (in a year's time) ? Actually doesn't the whole process usually require abundant sealing all over the place ? - Regarding the door, isn't this an extremely tricky part for someone with no building/handywork experience? How do i even "make" a door ? With what materials ? How do i make sure it's absolutely sealed when closed ? - What materials for the floor (and ceiling) ? I haven't really fully understood yet what "floating" means. - How do i fix a proper ventilation system without creating a catastrophic sound leak ? I'll have to do it anyway since it's gonna get really hot in there... - Should i place a window ? Ideally i'd like too. But isn't it a big hassle ? Will it be sound absorbant enough ? What material ? Unfortunately i haven't found a step by step method for constructing a booth, so i may have missed or misinterpreted some vital elements. Sorry for the confusing layout but that's because i don't have any clear vision of how things ought to be. I may give the impression of just juggling with words i do not yet fully understand... I hope you can help me clear a few things out :)

If I was competent with sketch up I'd give you a design. But the program baffles me. And I dont know why. I can run Photoshop like riding a bike. Mayb me and cad just aint friendly or I am waaaaay toooo impatient

In addition to my previous questions, I've been thinking about the door issue and wondered what you guys would usually do. Isn't it better to buy an acoustic door and fit it on the booth ? Or would you rather build it from scratch ?

A custom built door is best, however I have good results with a pair of Pella Insulated Security Doors. The seal is pretty darn good. With both doors closed you dont hear what I am doing in the room. (The wife and I's Hideaway at times. LOL ;) ) BTW 5 years ago before I had a clue we built custom solid dorrs 3/4" Oak slab with 1/2" neoprene glued in between the doors. HEAVY as HECK!!!!!!!!! But you never heard anything out of that room.

soooo, no one's gonna help me any further then :wink:

I'm sorta lazy what did I miss. Are you going to do double walls? if so a window is a wonderful idea, if not you will compromise isolation a bit with a single window wall.

A search of the Construction forum on the word "definition" brought up 26 matches - this is the 4th one - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... definition If you re-read ALL of the top post in each forum and follow all the links, it will answer some of your list of questions. Unfortunately, as to actual building plans for a booth I doubt I'll find time to do a project on that in less than a year or two - what I have in mind is to build a booth from scratch using minimal tools, taking pix (including live video) and sound measurements along the way - I then plan to publish a few pix of the finished booth along with actual isolation measurements, but will offer MOST of the package (and ALL of the actual plans/details) for sale on DVD. (Gotta make a living SOMEHOW) I know that isn't going to help you with your current project, and if you're not already experienced enough to draw your own plans (based on the principles of isolation set forth in this forum repeately, and linked from the REFERENCE section) then you will most likely be happier with the results you would get by BUYING one of the whisperrooms. At least with the pre-packaged booth, you will get full instructions and diagrams along with all pre-cut parts and hardware. And, if you locate that booth at least half a meter away from the nearest wall, the additional air space should improve on m-a-m enough to give you usable isolation for Tenor sax. I'm sorry I can't be of more help than that, but this is a FREE resource run out of the goodness of heart (and available time) of John and myself - in my case, that means whatever is left over after 12-hour work days, dozens of home projects, a new business making safety videos, and an occasional few hours sleep. I just don't have as much time to donate as I'd like, and things like full sets of plans take a LONG TIME to draw. If, after this, you still think you want to build your own booth, there are a few of our members who may be able to help; for example, DreaminDrumBeats is a carpenter by trade - if you were to PM him, he might be able to give you some pointers on basic construction techniques. As to interior size, actual inside dimensions of 4 feet x 5 feet x 7 feet make a good combination from a modal standpoint. That's about all I have time for right now; I hope this helped at least a little... Steve

Ok, i've read some very interesting stuff in the links you posted, thanks. Overall, i think it can be doable even by me. Bt i need to really understand all the different processes involved which isn't yet the case. I think from now on i won't rush. Some plans i saw in the links were kind of an eye opener - it's always easier to understand than long text descriptions. I think now i basically understand the wall construction process but i have one or two dumb questions. 1° I keep reading about the "frame" but what does it consist of ? What do typical double frame walls with wallboard only on the outside of each frame "look" like ? a link with a picture would be welcome. For the wall construction i'm referring to see : http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=28924), but i don't see the frames so although i understand most of how the layers etc should be lain out i still find it complicated to see how the walls would actually "stand" alone, where are the frames they are fixed to ? 2° In that same link i also see what is referred to as "studs", could you post a link with a picture of one ? That's all for now, hopefully when i understand these two things it'll open up more stuff i didn't quite grasp...

Here's a bit on framing - http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding ... h00023.asp The one thing they do NOT identify is a STUD - those are the full length, VERTICAL framing pieces that run between the bottom and top horizontal plates. All those pieces would be of the same dimensional lumber, typically either 2x4 or 2x6. In the US, these pieces of lumber are actually 1.5" x 3.5" for a "2x4", and 1.5" x 5.5" for a "2x6" - call it "evolution" if you will :roll: Also, if you've missed it there are several pix/drawings that may help in the "from shed to studio" thread, also started by a complete "newbie" some time back - it's linked from the REFERENCE section, here's the direct link http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1589 BTW, I really like your "can do" attitude - I also believe you can do this, and my previous post wasn't intended to dissuade you - only offer some options. Just remember that rushing things never results in happy endings, especially in this type of construction - take your time, ask any and all questions, and you'll get there when you get there... Steve

So a stud is the wooden planks you use to build the frame...i've finally come to terms with that now :). But what are steel studs ? Where do they come in ? What if i want to go for double frames for each wall ? I didn't see any pics of how to fix that up. I mean the frames that would be required for the type : leaf-frame-insulation - air - insulation-frame-leaf. Honestly, there's a lot of talk about this concept but i have yet to find the post that explains how to mount these kinds of double frames. Also, the more i read about all this stuff, the more i'm concerned about the actual "unmountability" of the whole thing ! Knightfly, didn't you mention you had a few ideas for that ? Cheers.

Steel studs are fins so long as they are not "bearing a load"