Hi guys! My name is Patrik and I have recently decided to build my third (!) home studio. This time it has to be right 'cos we are not moving from this place in a hurry (getting a baby girl made us go back to our roots and build a house quite close to her grand parents).
I would VERY MUCH appreciate support in this project and I believe the best way to get your attention is to describe the project plan as good as I can so here it goes (this could take a while...please be patient):
Project background
Due to the fact that I did not want to compromise the creativity level this time, I decided to put the studio in a separate building a couple of metres away from the actual house we live in. Incidentally, our neighbour (only on one side, that's a nice thing with living in the countryside :D) decided he wanted to build a garage with combined hobby/entertainment room and one thing lead to another and now we are building it all together in one single construction.
Building information
As we are practically splitting a house in two here (I will come back to that later), some tech specs about it are surely needed to state here. The total area is 13 metres * 8.10 metres, and it may seem strange but he has got 4.15 metre width for his part and I have got 3.95.
My part is divided into a carport (5.4 metres), a small shed (2.4 metres) and finally the studio (about 4.7 metres). His part is divided into a garage (6 metres) and a beautiful hobby/entertainment room (about 6.5 metres).
We share a firesafe concrete wall (25 centimeters wide) and we also share the ground construction (house standard, folie insulation of about 20 centimeters then 10 cm cement on top...I didn't do it and I can not remember the exact word in English right now but it's standard ground construction for new houses). In addition to this, we both have a complement concrete wall to support the large center wall. Mine is placed as a divider between carport and the small shed and his is diving the garage and the hobby room (not parallelled with mine, about 60 centimeters away).
The house is almost 5 metres at the highest part and then slopes down to about 2.6 metres for the low part (please see pics for details). I will keep it this way so this will probably be troublesome acoustically, I gather. This building is splitting our 2 properties border-wise and it is about 15 metres from my neighbour's house and about 4 metres from my house (although it is also at least 1 room of 3.8 metres away from any bedroom inside the house).
Ambition and goals
I want to create a creative environment to which I can go at any hour (night or day) and work with my dance music (well, ok sometimes other stuff that I have to do work-wise as well... :lol: ) at a reasonable tracking level (say I should at least be able to go up to 90 db even late nights) without disturbing my neighbour or wake my baby girl and my wife.
This environment must be perfectly ok for post production (acoustically tuned...a bit at least) as well as tracking/sequencing. I also have the ambition to construct a loft above the small shed that would be tied to the studio (either open space or possibly some sort of sliding glass) for vocal recording (see pics with floor level approx 2.5 metres up).
Studio items
Well, to give you some heads up regarding my upcoming questions about studio design (monitor placements, racks in corners, etc)I thought I just say a few words about my workflow. The main working area is a DAW-station with monitors from OpenLabs (Neko64) that would take up about 1.3 * 0.8 metres built into a console. Along with that, I have about 34 HE rack synths and 2 fullscale keyboards (Kurzweil K2000S and Elektron MonoMachine SFX6) that I use a lot.
Monitoring will be done with small Yamaha MSP3's just above the DAW and hopefully Fostex PM-2's soffit mounted in the corners (if you recommend that). There are about 12 HE of outboard gear and interfaces that would need their places as well, but that's all.
Initial questions (there will be a few updates, I guess...)
Construction
1) Having looked at my sketches, what (and how much) would you recommend for insulation wall/roof mass?
2) Bass frequencies, have I already ruined everything with the current build? Will my neighbour forever hate me if I go at it at about 90 db when they (not very likely to happen often but anyway) are having a dinner party in their entertainment room?
3) Sealing the concrete blocks, how accurate do I have to be here since I will most probably mount gypsum layers on it as well?
4) Soffit mounting - do you recommend and if so, which corners (please take the sloped roof into consideration)?
Acoustics and design
1) Bass traps, ok just to have in the corners or do I need something along the walls to? If I have it in the corners, how would that affect potential soffit mounting?
2) Ok, live end dead end I have heard, but I do not even know if I should place console on the wall where the loft lies or if I should place it so that I face the concrete wall (should be treated of course)? What do you recommend? And how should I then treat the walls and, in particular, the roof?
Just to clarify...the sketches below show the current status of the project (except for not showing anything of my neighbour's structure which is nearly completed) so I am stuck with the "sharing with neighbour"-plan, I'm afraid. Well, that's all for starters. All suggestions on how to go ahead with this are hugely appreciated.
EDIT: added real photos of the construction as it is today...work in progress :)
Ok, building my home studio from scratch - help appreciated!
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 4559.
If I were you, I wouldn't build a shared building. If you have the space, build your own standalone building.
Ooh, my mistake :shock: ...I should have stated that the sketches show the current status of the project (except for the absence of my neighbour's part which also has all the structure up). So, I appreciate your advice but I'm kinda stuck with this plan :cry: EDIT: Added this particular info to original posting.If I were you, I wouldn't build a shared building. If you have the space, build your own standalone building.
Ok, no one interested in helping me out with some advice :( ? You probably have better things to do, but if you believe you could contribute in any way I would be very thankful (I must finish construction of walls quite soon...that's the reason for me bumping you guys).
/patrik
Aside from Keith's warning about shared space, which I totally agree with, it looks like you also have shared rafters as well as the common wall - this means that any inner mass you use for ceiling (hopefully you've followed the top "before you post" thread and read at least the first 3 threads in the REFERENCE section??) MUST be isolated physically from your outer frame.
Looking at the common block wall, I have questions about its makeup -
are those solid blocks or hollow?
Is there really NO MORTAR in any of the vertical joints, or is this an optical illusion?
What are your insulation (for heat) requirements between you and the neighbor's side - will both of you heat the adjoining spaces?
What is the neighbor planning to do to HIS side of the party wall, and has he already done it? (Be specific and detailed please)
Are you planning to record live drums or not? Mic'd bass guitar, or other?
What kind of outer wall construction is planned? Specific materials, layer by layer, with dimensions of each material.
Door - will you use a single door or two? (looks like the door needs to be pretty good since it's toward the neighbor's little shed)
Wall - single frame or double?
The only way you'll get a decent stereo image in your space is to sit with your back to the common (party) wall so that the ceiling slopes up to your rear; this will eliminate any early reflections from the ceiling, although you'll need to put a fairly large absorbent, broadband trap across the peak of the ceiling and the common wall. Any other orientation will keep you from having a balanced symmetrical sound field.
When thinking about these things, keep in mind that decent isolation requires TWO masses separated by ONE air/insulation gap - this is true of walls, ceilings, floors, windows, doors, etc - so when visualizing what you'll do, first consider your outer mass and make it continuous all around your space. Then do the same with your inner mass. Inner and outer should NOT touch with any hard contact, or isolation will be LOTS worse.
This isn't as bad for floor, since vibrations will be partially absorbed by the earth; but you have a COMMON SLAB for both people; this is concrete, which passes sound very efficiently so your neighbor will be getting a LOT of your sound thru the floor.
Back to Keith's (unfortunately belated) warning about sharing space...
At this point, you have a concrete slab that's too thin to support a SECOND, floated concrete slab, so the best you'll be able to do for isolating your floor from your neighbor's floor is a medium-weight wooden floated floor.
To keep the weight down (too-thin concrete for a heavy one) and still get decent isolation thru the common floor, you will need to use taller wood frames than usual, support them on better isolator material and damp the floor layers with expensive materials (green glue) and not-quite-so-expensive mineral wool (complete fill between floor joists, plus light compression of the fill)
After you consider all this and answer all questions I've raised, we can get on with salvaging your project so you can come as close as reasonably possible to your goals - but please be aware that some of your previous choices/requirements may make this much more difficult... Steve
I was also kind of curious about the soleplates on that wall framing. They don't appear to be pressure-treated lumber. Perhaps that's not available or usable in your part of the world... But what's going to keep the sole plates from rotting? :?
Ok, guys...many thanks for helping out! I will try to answer the stuff you need to know:
Ok...the shared space is nothing to do about. Shared rafters...yes, but they are split in 2 and may have a tiny gap (1mm) between them. They rest on the common block wall and are tied together with iron plates. So, when you say isolated physically from my outer frame, is setting up frames within the outer frames and then mounting my double gysum 13mm (26 mm then) and plywood 12mm on those ok? I am looking to keep about 5 centimeters of the outer frame's finish visable in the ceiling...looks nice and should allow me to mount mass between them and not on them. But if that is ok, what do I have to think about when mounting the frames on the outer frame?Aside from Keith's warning about shared space, which I totally agree with, it looks like you also have shared rafters as well as the common wall - this means that any inner mass you use for ceiling (hopefully you've followed the top "before you post" thread and read at least the first 3 threads in the REFERENCE section??) MUST be isolated physically from your outer frame.
Well, they look like this inside (see photo) and should be fairly solid then, though the lack of mortar might affect your opinion on this.are those solid blocks or hollow?
Not mortar everywhere yet but will be. However, I do not think that the mortar will be solid through the wall...there will be a gap of about 5-8 centimeters inside of it (please see photo of wall in profile).Is there really NO MORTAR in any of the vertical joints, or is this an optical illusion?
He is responsible for heating up his space and I am for my place. So, I guess he will either have like floor-based heating or air/ventilation AC for both warm and cold. I have not decided for my space yet...do you have any direction to point me to?What are your insulation (for heat) requirements between you and the neighbor's side - will both of you heat the adjoining spaces?
He will render the wall and probably not mount any gypsum or anything on it. Nothing is done yet and his side of the wall looks just like mine.What is the neighbor planning to do to HIS side of the party wall, and has he already done it? (Be specific and detailed please)
Not planning to record any of those, just vocals that I want to record in the lofted space (above the small shed). This loft will be accessible from the control room through a small stairway. So, the control room is just for monitoring and composing sequenced stuff.Are you planning to record live drums or not? Mic'd bass guitar, or other?
I am thinking of doing from inside out: double gypsum 13mm (26mm) glued together and screwed to a 12mm plywood board - air gap of 20 mm - 100mm rigid fiberglass insulation - 12mm plywood board...do I need this and how should I mount it in that case? Could I just "hang" it up with some nails or so? - 45mm fiberglass insulation - 12mm asphalt board...do not know if this is what you call drywall or something, it is black and a bit like plywood in the structure - 19mm wooden panels mounted standing up. I have just made a rough sketch of it so please look at that for visuals.What kind of outer wall construction is planned? Specific materials, layer by layer, with dimensions of each material.
Yes, I am aiming for a solid, regular door, then air gap and a solid inner door. The neighbour's little shed is mainly for storing stuff so there are hardly any people there at anytime.Door - will you use a single door or two? (looks like the door needs to be pretty good since it's toward the neighbor's little shed)
Well, it is kind of double framed but mounted together so I guess that counts a as single frame.Wall - single frame or double?
Ok, I will do that. If I then create bass traps in the corners will I be able to suffit mount active monitors into those? And also, do I have to have exactly the same wall structure behind me to get a good stereo image? I would like to create a double-width rack space at my left rear in order to mount my machines there and also use its roof as a platform for the stariway that is going to lead to the loft. This rack will not have the same corner curve as the others, but is this critical?The only way you'll get a decent stereo image in your space is to sit with your back to the common (party) wall so that the ceiling slopes up to your rear; this will eliminate any early reflections from the ceiling, although you'll need to put a fairly large absorbent, broadband trap across the peak of the ceiling and the common wall. Any other orientation will keep you from having a balanced symmetrical sound field.
Ok, yes I am aiming for a separated framed wall (about 20 mm of air gap then a frame of about 70mm with ins) mounted with double gypsum in front of the common block wall. How do I set up the frame so it does not have contact with the block wall and still is stable?When thinking about these things, keep in mind that decent isolation requires TWO masses separated by ONE air/insulation gap - this is true of walls, ceilings, floors, windows, doors, etc - so when visualizing what you'll do, first consider your outer mass and make it continuous all around your space. Then do the same with your inner mass. Inner and outer should NOT touch with any hard contact, or isolation will be LOTS worse.
At this point, you have a concrete slab that's too thin to support a SECOND, floated concrete slab, so the best you'll be able to do for isolating your floor from your neighbor's floor is a medium-weight wooden floated floor.
Ok, I hear you. Will probably ask for details regarding this later. BTW, will floor-based heating affect something here?To keep the weight down (too-thin concrete for a heavy one) and still get decent isolation thru the common floor, you will need to use taller wood frames than usual, support them on better isolator material and damp the floor layers with expensive materials (green glue) and not-quite-so-expensive mineral wool (complete fill between floor joists, plus light compression of the fill)
There is a thin, standard layer between the concrete and the framing that should handle this (this construction is supervised by a building leader that has to follow general rules and report this). So, it should be ok from that point but maybe not from a soundproofing point. Please see photos and sketches as I try to visualize the wall construction and common block profile there. Again, thank you so much for helping! Looking forward to your feedback again! /patrikI was also kind of curious about the soleplates on that wall framing. They don't appear to be pressure-treated lumber. Perhaps that's not available or usable in your part of the world... But what's going to keep the sole plates from rotting? :?
Somewhat in order -
Your rafters are tied to your neighbor's rafters with iron plates; this is a HARD CONNECTION and essentially makes the rafters one piece; ANY sound that reaches ANY PART of your rafters (like the part you want to leave exposed) will travel lengthwise thru the rafter, thru the iron plates, into the common wall and the neighbor's rafter, and will get re-radiated into your neighbor's space. This is true of all frequencies more or less.
So your plan of "nesting" your "second leaf of mass" up INSIDE the rafters will NOT work. The rafters themselves are part of your OUTER LEAF of mass, and must have an air space (insulation is considered an air space, BTW, as is anything you can blow air through) and then an INNER MASS, which needs to be on a separate frame.
By "separate", I mean physically NOT touching, or at least separated by flexible connections. This would include rubber, springs, light gauge metal framing, or no connection whatever.
The lack of mortar in block joints will need to be fixed; if your side will be rendered, maybe the cracks can be filled at that time. You want a SOLID mass there, not a perforated or pock-marked one.
Speaking of which, I still need to know if your blocks (common wall) are made of SOLID concrete, or if they each have air spaces INSIDE the blocks - if you're not sure what I mean, I'll look for some pictures of each. This is VITAL information.
Well, it is kind of double framed but mounted together so I guess that counts a as single frame
Yes it does; this will cost you about 10 dB of isolation if you can't change it.
If I then create bass traps in the corners will I be able to suffit mount active monitors into those?
Yes, but you'll need to follow specific methods in order not to lose the benefits of soffiting; I'll have to cover this in more detail when I have more time.
do I have to have exactly the same wall structure behind me to get a good stereo image?
This will partially depend on your side and rear wall treatments; mainly first reflection points being absorbed adequately with mineral wool or equivalent.
How do I set up the frame so it does not have contact with the block wall and still is stable?
Your plywood and gypsum paneling will solidify the inner frame, assuming you're continuing the separate inner frame around the perimeter of the room; then the inner ceiling's framing will rest ONLY on that inner wall. If local zoning requires more stringent seismic bracing, there are a few companies who supply rubber isolated sway brackets.
BTW, will floor-based heating affect something here?
Definitely; if you intend to use internal floor heating, you can't float a floor at all. The two are not compatible.
I'm glad Patrik's thread has some momentum now. 8)
Here's the part where you'd expect me to pop-in and talk about California codes related to earthquakes. ;-) Actually, my local acoustic engineer told me that as long as my gaps are big enough and my walls are rigid enough, I won't need to use any anti-sway braces. I will be sheathing my inner leaf walls with OSB. He said that my inner room will act like a rigid building of its own and won't sway. 8) Of course, now that I think of it, in the course of an earthquake, I might be in big trouble if the outer leaf walls don't sway in synch with my outer leaf walls -- if they bump into each other, yikes! :shock:How do I set up the frame so it does not have contact with the block wall and still is stable? Your plywood and gypsum paneling will solidify the inner frame, assuming you're continuing the separate inner frame around the perimeter of the room; then the inner ceiling's framing will rest ONLY on that inner wall. If local zoning requires more stringent seismic bracing, there are a few companies who supply rubber isolated sway brackets.
Ok, super thanks, guys! I now understand that I absolutely need to set up a room within the room. I will get back to you very soon with a couple of drawings of suggestions but in the meantime:
1) Will 2" by 3" framing be sufficent for inner wall structure (ie handle 3 layers mounted)?
2) Mounting the inner wall frames on the concrete or not? And how, in order to not let it lead sound (I have read about pucks...is that what I should have beneath them?)
3) The blocks themselves are solid but as we agreed upon earlier, the mortar between them does not fill all the 25 centimeters through. Would an 7 centimeter frame structure filled with rockwool and separated from the common block wall be ok if 2 layers of gypsum are mounted on top of that framing or do I need bigger air gap than these 7-8 centimeters?
Again, thanks for helping out. THIS is why I love internet :D
1) Will 2" by 3" framing be sufficent for inner wall structure (ie handle 3 layers mounted)?
I'm not sure if Sweden uses "nominal" values for framing lumber as the US does; if those studs are actually 2" x 3", they'll be fine. IF they are "nominal" sizes as used in the US, they'd be actual size of 1.5" x 2.5", and would NOT be strong enough. For better wall performance, you'd want to use 24" centers for framing so it needs to be a bit sturdier than if it were built on 16" centers.
2) Mounting the inner wall frames on the concrete or not? And how, in order to not let it lead sound (I have read about pucks...is that what I should have beneath them?)
This would depend on whether you plan on building some kind of floating floor; if so, the inner wall would rest on that floating floor, so would be isolated from the main slab. If no floated floor, then how you mount the inner wall is a moot point since the slab will likely be your limiting factor for isolation between you and your neighbor.
3) The blocks themselves are solid but as we agreed upon earlier, the mortar between them does not fill all the 25 centimeters through. Would an 7 centimeter frame structure filled with rockwool and separated from the common block wall be ok if 2 layers of gypsum are mounted on top of that framing or do I need bigger air gap than these 7-8 centimeters?
You're confusing things here maybe - a 70mm deep frame isn't likely to support a double gypsum layer very well. Are you meaning that the frame itself is only 70mm deep, or what?
As far as sound control is concerned, a 70mm gap between 2 15mm layers of gypsum and 250mm of concrete will get you about STC 85, with around 40 dB TL at 50 hZ.
For purposes of sound control, air gap is measured from solid panel to solid panel; framing that protrudes into the air space doesn't change things enough to measure, as long as the frames do not touch each other... Steve
Thanks for letting me jump in on your thread Patrick but I've been struggling with this one for a while myself and am still a bit uncertain. So, if I were to build my framing completely isolated from the outer structure around the perimeter of my room. And if I had this inner structure, physically coupled to itself at each corner. Would ramsetting this framing to the concrete slab be enough for stability (of course, if local zoning doesn't specify otherwise)? Thanks.I'm glad Patrik's thread has some momentum now. 8)Here's the part where you'd expect me to pop-in and talk about California codes related to earthquakes. ;-) Actually, my local acoustic engineer told me that as long as my gaps are big enough and my walls are rigid enough, I won't need to use any anti-sway braces. I will be sheathing my inner leaf walls with OSB. He said that my inner room will act like a rigid building of its own and won't sway. 8) Of course, now that I think of it, in the course of an earthquake, I might be in big trouble if the outer leaf walls don't sway in synch with my outer leaf walls -- if they bump into each other, yikes! :shock:How do I set up the frame so it does not have contact with the block wall and still is stable? Your plywood and gypsum paneling will solidify the inner frame, assuming you're continuing the separate inner frame around the perimeter of the room; then the inner ceiling's framing will rest ONLY on that inner wall. If local zoning requires more stringent seismic bracing, there are a few companies who supply rubber isolated sway brackets.
I'm not sure. Perhaps a visit to your municipal building department would get you a definitive answer to that question.
Not sure if ramset is code acceptible for that either, or if you'd need to set lag shields and bolt. In either case, you'll want a thermal break between sill plates and concrete... Steve
Yikes! It's been a few days since I had Internet access and in the meantime the building's outer frame structure has been completed!
I will walk the "room within the room" path! Since that is clear, new questions arise:
1) Ok, I need to somehow support the frame structure of the inner room wall that is to be set in front of the common block wall...it's about 4.8 metres high so I guess some sort of fixation to it must be done for it to carry double gypsum and plywood, right? What to use?
2) I figured I could make the room within the room with floating floor. Now, to keep costs down, would you please advice me how to create that floor (from what to place directly on the concrete all the way up to parquet floor)? I heard someone state that very low density insulation (I guess almost like rigid fiberglass...in Sweden they say "ground insulation") would be almost as good placed directly on the concrete and wrapped with plastic as fancy rubber solutions? True or not? Paroc seems to have some solutions for this and maybe that would be good enough for my place?
3) Well, I have been thinking about the inner leaf setup and now I wonder if I need to use RC since I will no longer have any connection to my outer frame structure? I will float the floor, build the walls on top of it and then layer the ceiling on top of the walls.
EDIT: Trigger finger deleted my plead to you as well as Keith, Steve :shock: . So that is all that is edited :lol:
EDIT 2: Took away question about 3rd leaf and pic (thanks to surfing this forum better... :? ) and added question about using RC or not if room is totally isolated from outer frame.
Ok, guys...lots of time passing and some things actually happening as well. The roof is up and completed, as well as all framework and I have started with the first of 2 outdoor gypsum layers (9mm each) that will complete the outer leaf together with 30mm wood panel.
For the inner parts, I am being a bit careful about space and kinda have second thoughts about setting up a room-within-room solution. I have talked to my neighbour and he has clarified that his space will only be used for hobby time...most certainly weekends and sometimes weekdays but never past 9 pm (and about that time, past 9, is when I usually try to be creative). And he also stated that I do not need to worry about the sound levels...well, we will see how much that counts for later on :).
Just want to check with you guys, though:
1) IF I am going for a single frame structure (not 2 frames separated from each other), how much will that hurt me isolation-wise? I am thinking of maybe having 3 layers of gypsum for the inner leaf. The thickness of the walls would then be:
a. 48mm mass (9mm gypsum x 2 and wood panel) - 165mm air (45mm insulation and 120mm insulation) - 39mm mass (13mm gypsum x 3) for the wall with the wooden framework, counted from the outside and in
b. 39mm mass (13mm gypsum x 3), 70mm air (stuffed with 70 mm insulation), 250mm solid common block wall
2) Will monitor placements (thinking of flush mounting them in corners) affect the sound energy level so that there is less sound energy going backwards of the monitors?
3) IF I go for one frame with 3 gypsum layers, would green glue help me a bit, and if so, would you recommend using it at the wooden frame before adding gypsum on it as well (never worked with it so I do not know its details)?
4) Steve, you stated that "...a 70mm deep frame isn't likely to support a double gypsum layer very well. Are you meaning that the frame itself is only 70mm deep, or what?". Yes, I do. I thought you said it was ok ("...I'm not sure if Sweden uses "nominal" values for framing lumber as the US does; if those studs are actually 2" x 3", they'll be fine") earlier. What I need to know is if I can mount a 70mm wooden frame structure on top of the solid common block wall and then add 2-3 layers of fypsum on that framework. Is this ok or not?
And I just want to thank all of you guys that help people carrying out their dreams (yes, you brilliant moderators and experts at this forum). The information and advices published here is invaluable to many of us.
1) IF I am going for a single frame structure (not 2 frames separated from each other), how much will that hurt me isolation-wise? I am thinking of maybe having 3 layers of gypsum for the inner leaf. The thickness of the walls would then be:
a. 48mm mass (9mm gypsum x 2 and wood panel) - 165mm air (45mm insulation and 120mm insulation) - 39mm mass (13mm gypsum x 3) for the wall with the wooden framework, counted from the outside and in
b. 39mm mass (13mm gypsum x 3), 70mm air (stuffed with 70 mm insulation), 250mm solid common block wall
The outer wall, if that's two 70mm SEPARATE frames, would be around STC 73 with TL of around 39 dB @ 50 hZ - single frame with same dimensions, no RC would run STC 51, w/32 dB @50 hZ - adding RC, still single frame would run STC 60, w/32 dB TL @ 50 hZ.
The shared wall would depend on whether you space the wood frame away from the block wall or not; with frame NOT touching the blocks, it would be about STC 85 with the 50 hZ TL about 40 dB. Touching, but with RC - STC81, 36 dB @ 50 hZ. Solid connection, STC 75/36 dB @50 hZ.
2) Will monitor placements (thinking of flush mounting them in corners) affect the sound energy level so that there is less sound energy going backwards of the monitors?
NO. They will still excite the ROOM, which will transmit whatever sound depending on the TOTAL room construction. (weakest link theory)
3) IF I go for one frame with 3 gypsum layers, would green glue help me a bit, and if so, would you recommend using it at the wooden frame before adding gypsum on it as well (never worked with it so I do not know its details)?
GG is today's miracle goop, according to Brian; he's tested several types of construction with it. Best answer I can give (not having used it) is to ask at studiotips.com, or just read the several threads there on green glue
http://www.studiotips.com/
4) Steve, you stated that "...a 70mm deep frame isn't likely to support a double gypsum layer very well. Are you meaning that the frame itself is only 70mm deep, or what?". Yes, I do. I thought you said it was ok ("...I'm not sure if Sweden uses "nominal" values for framing lumber as the US does; if those studs are actually 2" x 3", they'll be fine") earlier. What I need to know is if I can mount a 70mm wooden frame structure on top of the solid common block wall and then add 2-3 layers of fypsum on that framework. Is this ok or not?
For isolation's sake, I'd NOT mount the frame directly to the block wall. Can you MEASURE your frame boards and post the EXACT dimensions of width and thickness? Steve
Ok, LONG time and no see, but I will really get on with this now. Some small steps have been made and I will update you very soon about it, but I just REALLY need to get some answers as soon as possible:
1) I am thinking of setting up a 2nd SEPARATED frame for the wall facing my side and I am wondering if it is ok to set the 3 gypsum layers on the FAR side of the frame and not on the side facing the studio room? If this is possible, I would save a couple of centimeters because I know I need to set up absorbers within the room and I figured I could maybe do that using the same framework? Would this be ok and, if so, would it be ok to but the absorbers up that way?
2) Any great idea of how to separate that inner frame from the ceiling's frame? I am stuck with one GIANT frame for the ceiling?
3) For the floor, since it is insulated house-quality concrete ground, would it be ok to just put 50mm of ground insulation (that hard type of thing), then 15mm of plywood, step mat and 12mm wooden floor as finish? Should I be worried about bass coming through that (I will be monitoring at about 85 db from ADAM A7 nearfield speakers 90% of the time)?
4) For the ceiling, since I am stuck with one frame, any great advices about making the best of it (of course I will have a 2-leaf setup)?
5) Just to make things clear, is there ANY kind of direction of the sound that I could benefit from regarding the weakest link (wall or ceiling)? I mean, if the far wall is weaker than the front wall, will the sound hit the front's outside just as bad as the far wall's outside?
6) Suffit mounting, would you say it is to be preferred in this room (about 3.5 metres long and 5.4 metres wide) if the listening position would be about 2 metres away from the wall but 3-3.5 metres away from each monitor?
Ok, I know the last one should be in the acoustics area, but I figured maybe you could give me a quick answer here too.
Thanks in advance!
Welcome back!
Yes -- although it can be a challenge to build, this is known as the "inside-out wall" that I think John pretty much invented. (My apologies to the true inventor if that is not the case!)1) I am thinking of setting up a 2nd SEPARATED frame for the wall facing my side and I am wondering if it is ok to set the 3 gypsum layers on the FAR side of the frame and not on the side facing the studio room? If this is possible, I would save a couple of centimeters because I know I need to set up absorbers within the room and I figured I could maybe do that using the same framework? Would this be ok and, if so, would it be ok to but the absorbers up that way?
You could stagger joists parallel to but slightly lower than the existing joists, with the lower joists being firmly fastened to your inner leaf wall framing. This has been described on the forum in several places and I think it's covered in Rod's book -- which, if you don't have it, you should buy right away!2) Any great idea of how to separate that inner frame from the ceiling's frame? I am stuck with one GIANT frame for the ceiling?
If you do what I described above, you won't have one frame. You'll have two frames taking up roughly the same vertical clearance as one. I skipped the questions that I don't feel qualified to answer. --Keith :mrgreen:4) For the ceiling, since I am stuck with one frame, any great advices about making the best of it (of course I will have a 2-leaf setup)?
If I'm not mistaken, an "inside-out-wall" has all of the insulation on the inside (i.e., studio side) and then it's covered with fabric (again, on the studio side). If this is the case and you build it this way, I don't think you're going to have to worry about absorbtion in the room - you're going to be building one big absorber. If this is what you end up doing, I can offer one little piece of advice (based on experience :-( ) put some 1x4s on edge between the studs on top of the sole (base) plate. This will give a solid backing that's taller than the 1 1/2" of the bottom plate for you to attach baseboard or cove molding to. I found out the hard way that cove moulding doesn't stick to fabric well. lenPostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: Welcome back!Yes -- although it can be a challenge to build, this is known as the "inside-out wall" that I think John pretty much invented. (My apologies to the true inventor if that is not the case!)1) I am thinking of setting up a 2nd SEPARATED frame for the wall facing my side and I am wondering if it is ok to set the 3 gypsum layers on the FAR side of the frame and not on the side facing the studio room? If this is possible, I would save a couple of centimeters because I know I need to set up absorbers within the room and I figured I could maybe do that using the same framework? Would this be ok and, if so, would it be ok to but the absorbers up that way?
Hey! Thanks for helping Sharward and Len...really appreciated! I have just sketched up a couple of pics to make sure we are on the same track:
1) Regarding the "inside-out" wall with gypsum and insulation as absorbers, is this what you saw for your eyes when I tried to explain it earlier?
2) Ok, not exactly the right place for acoustics-talk, but could you guys advice me about which material, and thickness you would use for the wall absorbers (that will be part of the actual wall)? Would you stick it to the wall or have 1 inch or so of space behind it? I am looking to tune the room as level as possible for all relevant frequencies so I guess I am going for some broadband w a little more lowness than usual here.
3) Tricky question...would you guys make use of the angled ceiling or would you create an inner ceiling to make it just 250 centimeters high all over (instead of sloping from 250 to 480 centimeters)? I understand that if I were to use the sloped ceiling, I would have to have it behind my back for best acoustics.
I have ordered Rod's book so I am hoping to take a deeper look at this early next week!
Freshly back from the dead (considering the time) I have now started making some good progress with the studio (kids and proper work took all the time last few years)! I am now determined to finish the studio project within a couple of months.
What I have done so far is to follow the advices from Steve and Sharward and made this room into the following conditions:
1) Floating floor with rigid ground isolation against concrete, and thereafter board (will add parquett floor ove this)
2) Walls attached to the floating floor, no contact with outer leaf (walls are double gypsum 13mm, ie 26mm with glue between). Walls are built "inside out" with open framing inside the room.
3) Ceiling hung on top of walls, no contact with outer leaf (will add double gypsum 13mm with glue between set from the inside
4) Electricity is drawn into the concrete and through the double gypsum at a single place, sealed with silicone/glue/tape
5) Outside door is hung, just an ordinary entrance door at the moment
What I need to do next is to:
A) Draw the entire electricity (will be done for me next week)
B) Turn inside walls into slot resonators (looking for broadband). I am looking to mount insulation, attach fabric and then hold it together with slats with different spacing. Will I need to have air gap between insulation and gypsum or can I mount that pressed against the gypsum and the slats?
C) Seal the 2 door frames (I do not have an inner door at the moment, bear that in mind). How do I do that without connecting the two frames?D) Set gypsum to the ceiling
E) Construct corner bass traps, possibly containing soffit mounted Behringer Truths 3031 (I have seen the ones with stuffed insulation cut into quarter parts from floor to ceiling, will that be ok here and if I am going to soffit mount, what do I need to consider since it should be corner bass traps as well?)
Ok, ANY help at all you could give me with B, C and E will be highly appreciated. I am attaching a few photos of the current status juts to give you better background. I am looking to get this up and running very soon so if you manage to free some of your time and help me right now that would be awesome!
Thanks in advance!
/Patrik
good to have you back on trail :)
Thanks Ro! Care to lend me some of your wisdom in the matters I listed? :)
You dont' need an airgap. If the resonator is untuned (as you said, it's broadband) then the wool can tough the slats.gap between insulation and gypsum or can I mount that pressed against the gypsum and the slats?
Dunno exactly what you mean but it wouldn't hurt THAT much if the doorframes are connected. But only if THAT's the only connection. Else find a better way to secure the frames.C) Seal the 2 door frames (I do not have an inner door at the moment, bear that in mind). How do I do that without connecting the two frames?
yes you can use the quarter part technique (known as superchunks). If the monitor in question is pasive then you can box it in with wool to get a descent basstrap. If it's active, you gotta have some ventilation at the back since these babies radiate a lot of heat.E) Construct corner bass traps, possibly containing soffit mounted Behringer Truths 3031 (I have seen the ones with stuffed insulation cut into quarter parts from floor to ceiling, will that be ok here and if I am going to soffit mount, what do I need to consider since it should be corner bass traps as well?)