recording studio in germany - need some advice

Hello, we are a small music-label in berlin, and for quite a while we´ve been looking for new studio-rooms (let´s not talk about the ones we had so far ...) already this forum helped us a lot in our decision how and where to start building. We love this forum ... thanks already, we appreciate you´re help. Now some info and questions about our project. OVERVIEW We´re planning to build a recording studio in berlin, germany, and we could rent the following object. We have to decide very soon wether to take it or leave it. Before building, we would like to get some questions answered, and we hope, you could help us out here. After reading a lot in this forum for the last couple of months, we still like to ask a few questions. HOW LOUD/NEIGHBOURS the plan is to record all kinds of music, drum recordings incl. etc. the following object is a “remise” (coachhouse; well that´s what the dictionary says). Its in residential aerea, while one part of it (the future recording room) has no direct neighbours, neither above nor left or right...there is a yard around it, the next apartment is app. 5m away. the other half (future controll room) is integrated in the residential building and there is an apartement right above it. BUILDING as far as we know, its all concrete walls and floor. Even the ceiling is concrete and quite thick (other than most american builings, as we learned in this forum....:-) we´re still concerned, how loud it will be (even after building a room-in-room construcion) for the neighbours. BUDGET We plan to build a room-in-room for the recording room, room-in-room for the CR is out of reach financially. We try to keep the budget under 5000€. QUESTIONS 1) we think, as far as we learned from this site, we want to build a room-in-room-construction for the recording room with a two-leaf-wall using the concrete outer wall as one of the leafes. We think we need about 10-20cm space between outer and inner leaf. The inner leaf should be a wood-framed wall with 2 or three layers of gypsum plaster board and filled with rockwool. Our question is, what we should do with the glass-door (that won`t be used) and the two windows in the recording room, because there is the yard and the next neighbours nearby. We thought about beefing up the window with wood (mfd). We think that our potential future landlord will not allow to wall up the windows and the glass-door. 2) we are not sure, how we should solve the problem with the walls between the CR and the recording room. Between the two rooms there is a wall penetration. The question is how to use the already exisiting concrete wall as the outer leaf for the room-in-room-construction, also there should be the window to the CR. (see graphic 2). do you have any remarks? 3) we would be happy with every remark or suggestion concering the studio-layout. regards and greetings from germany jens and elis

ooopsss we are sorry ... on the 3rd picture it should read "inside the potential Recording room" but not "inside the potential CR" greetings jens

Hello. One thing I'd do first is find out for sure what your landlord's policy on those window's is. If you are not allowed to alter them, the windows will be a weak link in your wall system and it can be expensive to compensate for that by a different means. You should also see if you can measure sound levels of incoming sound (from outside) and outgoing sound from instruments etc. with a sound level meter. This will help you in determining what kind of construction will be needed to meet your isolation goals.

thanx for your quick reply.... we are going to talk with the landlord about the windows. but i think we cannot wall them up (including the glass door). i saw other threads at this forum, in which people where talking about sealing some windows. i think we could do some tricks from the inside with additional layers of whatever that are mounted into the window frames. do you all think that the only way would be to wall the windows up? some advice for the question we ask about the second picture, where we try to figure out how we could use the existing (penetrated) wall as a outer leaf for the separation of CR and recording room?

You should also see if you can measure sound levels of incoming sound (from outside) and outgoing sound from instruments etc. with a sound level meter. This will help you in determining what kind of construction will be needed to meet your isolation goals.

i know we should do that, but its hard because we didn`t rent the object by now. i think the most problematic thing is drums that are leaking to the outside. outside noise wouldn`t be a problem as it is a residential building and there is no street nearby, just the yard. greetings jens and elis

When you say sealing some window frames, do you mean caulking around the perimeter of the glass and frame or do you mean placing layers over top of the glass? If adding layers is what you mean then that would be your best bet. I don't know how your landlord would feel about that option though either. In terms of the wall between the tracking and control rooms, you could use the penetrations for a window and door but you'd have to make sure that they (window and door) match the integrity of whatever wall system you build. You want to avoid putting time and money into a high performance wall system only to find that the door(s) and window(s) don't match up in terms of performance. An isolation system (wall, ceiling, floor etc..) is only as good as it's weakest link.

It's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to achieve drum-level isolation in a non-permanent fashion. :? I don't know where to begin. :roll:

sharward wrote:

It's going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to achieve drum-level isolation in a non-permanent fashion. :? I don't know where to begin. :roll:

ummm....maybe tehre is a little confusion because we are not english native speakers. we are not exactly sure , what you mean by "non-permanent fashion". we are not looking for a construction for the windows that is moveable and could easyily be build back to use the windows if we need them. the windows could be completely "covered" with whatever in a permanent fashion but we try to figure out how to do that effectively. or maybe we don`t understand and you mean that we CANNOT ever use that room, because the windows will ALWAYS be our problem in achieving drum isolation even if we build a room-in-room construction with a floating floor using the already exsiting conrete wall (with the treated windows) as outer leaf. if you all agree on that point we have to think about NOT renting that object. appreciating the help jens&elis

cyeazel wrote:

When you say sealing some window frames, do you mean caulking around the perimeter of the glass and frame or do you mean placing layers over top of the glass? If adding layers is what you mean then that would be your best bet. I don't know how your landlord would feel about that option though either.

exactly this is what we meant: adding layers to the window. we think of the leaking window like a weak link that must be upgraded to the strength of the wall :-) but there is something we didin`t get even if we were reading throuigh that forum: if we would add layers to the windows. don`t we build up a third-leaf-scenario with the window, some added material and the our inner wall (room in room)? and isn`t that a nono?

cyeazel wrote:

You want to avoid putting time and money into a high performance wall system only to find that the door(s) and window(s) don't match up in terms of performance. An isolation system (wall, ceiling, floor etc..) is only as good as it's weakest link.

yes for sure, there will be a double door leading to the tracking room. he question that we can not answer is, what is the best way do make a double leaf situation at the wall between CR and tracking room. we have the wall that is the wooden-framed wall of the tracking room and then we have the penetrated (already existing) wall. and we do not exactly know how to deal with that pentrated wall: should we build a wooden framed wall to "fill" the penetrated wall which will hold one the windows and one of the doors between the CR and the tracking room? we appreciate your help greetings elis&jens

If you follow this idea http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=32265 for your window plugs, a 6mm glass with 200mm air gap filled with fiberglass insulation, and 3 layers of 12mm gypsum for the inner leaf with GOOD seals, should get you about STC 48, with the TL at 50 hZ being around 29-30 dB - this means that low frequency drums would start being heard outside when they are about 85 dB IN the room. I'm late for bed already so will try to add more tomorrow... Steve

knightfly wrote:

If you follow this idea http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=32265 for your window plugs [......]should get you about STC 48.

thanx for your answer, the thread you were referring too (including the picture) is exactly what we meant to do. 1) but we are still somehow confused, because if we do it like that with the windows we have a "perfect" outer leaf (the existing concrete wall of the house with processed windows) but what about the room-in-a-room constructiuon that we will build approximately 10-20cm apart from that wall? isn`t that a three leaf situation then for the windows area? situation for the windows from outside to inside windowglass (1.leaf)--- fiberglass insulation ---- 3 layers of gypsum (second leaf) ---- wall of room-in-room-construction (third leaf????) or is that situation okay, as long as it is only for the windows area? because wherever there is no window, we have: outer concrete wall (1. leaf) ------air-------wall of room-in-room-.construction ? 2) i have to say that we plan to do the newly build inner walls like this http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... /Walls.htm but maybe this is our biggest fault in our thinking? for maximum isolation do we have to forget the existing concrete wall as one leaf and build a two-leafed room-in-room or is it true that we should use the existing concrete wall as one of the leafs and build just another frame (like johns "inside-out-wall")...confused...and we thought we got it (i try to send a jpg to make that clear, but my server is down right now, i`ll try later again) any other ideas or comments concerning the wall construction between tracking room and CR? thanx for your help

Yes, that would be a three leaf with your windows if built the way you stated. But why do you need to have insulation between the glass and additional layers? You would avoid the 3 leaf problem if you just added layers without the airspace.

cyeazel wrote:

Yes, that would be a three leaf with your windows if built the way you stated. [...] You would avoid the 3 leaf problem if you just added layers without the airspace.

i just followed knightflys suggestion on sealing our windows. but things are clearing up right now......... ok, so what you recommend is the following: from outside to inside 1) window glass (beefed up with additional layers WITHOUT airspace; so we would get the "same" mass/thickness as the sourrounding concrete wall) 2) ~10cm between outer wall (conrete incl. "layered" windows) and .... 3) inner wall (ONE wooden frame with multiple layers of plasterboard on ONE side and filled with insulation); maybe like johns "inside-out-wall") or is it 3) inner wall (TWO wooden frames with multiple layers on the outside of the outer AND on the inside of the inner wallframe) [then i tink we would we the existing conrete wall/windows as a third leaf] btw: do i have to post my pictures on my own server? is there a possibility to load them up directly?

this picture should describe what i mean (this is the version i described above with the existing conrete wall(with "layered" windows) as outer leaf and a "inside-out-wall" as inner leaf with a gap between them..... so you mena something like that?

Sorry, I see that you were taking knightfly's advice. He is certainly the expert here. I could be way off here (Steve, forgive me if I am) but maybe the 3 leaf affect is negated if you build that window plug in addition to new separate framing. Steve, help.......

confused

Guys, Let me simplify something for you - Although the 3 leaf system is an ugly dog looking to raise it's head and bite you in the butt when you least expect it - and will cause you some loss in values for an assembly as a whole. There are times where there is just no other way out. However - in this case - the detail does not provide a 3 leaf system. I'm happy to see that Steve modified the gypsum directly against the glass - in cool or cold climate conditions this could cause some problems with condensation and mold............. HOWEVER - in his detail (when reading the verbiage - which is just as important as looking at the picture) you would only have a 2 leaf system.......... You have the glass leaf - and then the inner wall leaf. If you were to build a room within a room - then the inner leaf would simply be further inside the wall assembly. BUT - (big but - notice that?) - in reality - although you would never gain the full value of the added mass - you could still place insulation in the window cavity (after covering the inside face of the glass with either paint or a nice film to give it a finished look) add 3 layers of mass to the inside wall surface - (but only at the window location itself) then an air-space with your new wall assembly - and gain isolation value that would would not have had without the added mass at the window. Partly this is due to the fact that the TL values of the differing materials are vastly different - and partly due to the fact that the glass doesn't affect the wall as a whole - but only on the percentage of area that deals with the window itself. As I have stated many MANY times in the past - sometimes we have 3 (even 4) leaf systems because we just don't have a choice - and when that happens - we live with it - don't worry about it - and don't bother looking back.............. Sincerely, Rod

Rod brings up a very valid point - sometimes you can't do the ideal thing. Where you plan a third leaf, you WILL weaken isolation near the window; there isn't much you can do about the physics of this, other than to compensate in other leaves. For your situation, there is no reasonable way around having a 3-leaf situation where the window is - but what you COULD do is to build your insert so that the added mass is CLOSER to the window - perhaps 25mm away. This would RAISE the resonance caused by the glass and the insert's mass, making it easier for your INNER leaf (which should then have 1 more layer of gyp than the REST of the walls) to better isolate - this because higher frequencies are easier to stop with mass. You might consider a cover AGAINST the glass, 1" of insulation (for condensation control), then the mass of your window plug (inset on frame - ask if you need a sketch of this) - then as much air gap as you can afford before building your "inside out wall", and (as mentioned earlier) one extra layer of gyp on that portion of the wall. Doing it this way would lessen the negative effect of multi-leaf resonances, but I have no way of calculating how MUCH... Steve

knightfly wrote:

You might consider a cover AGAINST the glass, 1" of insulation (for condensation control), then the mass of your window plug (inset on frame - ask if you need a sketch of this) - then as much air gap as you can afford before building your "inside out wall", and (as mentioned earlier) one extra layer of gyp on that portion of the wall.

thanx to rod and steve for clearing things up for us. we actually know we won`t get a "perfect" situation, but it helps to know we are on a way und truely understand what we are doing, cause sometimes all the aspects concerning studio-building are a little bit confusing, even after you read that much on that forum. our biggest concern is, as we said sound-leakage (especially from the drums) and we try to plan the best solution. we spoke with our potential landlord (we didn´t rent the object yet) and we have a meeting next week with him and an engineer. it could even be possible to wall the windows and the doors up with a brickwall. may be thta would even be better. so, we think we got it. the plan i drew (some posts before) would be our thing. covering the windows and the glassdoor like you described above, then MUCH air/space (would 50cm be enough?) and the the inner leaf as a "inside out wall" on a floated floor. the inner wall would then have from outside to inside : insulation - 3layers of plasterboard(gypsum) attached to a wood frame and filled with insulation or is it a better idea to build the inner wall in a different way (not inside out)? and one more question. steve, you wrote

and (as mentioned earlier) one extra layer of gyp on that portion of the wall.

do you mean we should just put an extra layer on the inner wall in that area where the window in the outer wall is directly opposed? so we would have two layers everywhere on the inner wall and then three layers in that special "window-areas"? and yes: we would like to have a sketch on that windowframing you mentioned. thank you all for your help, we really appreciate it jens&elis

I'd stay with 3 layers for the entire inner, "inside out" wall - if you were to use 3 layers of 15mm gypsum both for your insert (sized as in the pic, this is fairly critical) and 3 layers on your inner, floated wall frame, you should just start to hear drums outside when the inside SPL is around 90 dB - this is assuming you do tight construction, good caulking, no seams matching layer to layer, etc - the 25mm insulation between window glass and the insert would be MAXIMUM and (sorta) MINIMUM - less thickness and you may run into condensation problems, more thickness and you'll lower the m-a-m resonance of the cavity between the glass and the gypsum, which will worsen your isolation at lower frequencies. This was calculated with the 500mm air space you mentioned. Overall m-a-m would be around 24 hZ. If you've not built "inside out" walls, you'll probably need to know the order of construction and how to fasten insulation to the inner surface as well?? Steve

knightfly wrote:

. . . less thickness and you may run into condensation problems . . .

I would think that a moisture-tolerant gypsum, if available in your area, would be a wise choice... Something similar to SHEETROCK® Brand HUMITEK® Gypsum Panels.

Not just for the wallboard, Keith - the window pane frames are probably wood, and condensation isn't a good idea for those either... Steve

thanks for the exellent sketch. thats perfect yes we should think about the moisture , it gets cold here in berlin :-)

"If you've not built "inside out" walls, you'll probably need to know the order of construction and how to fasten insulation to the inner surface as well??"

well the question is, if we should do the inside-out-wall-thing or if we should stay with another structure. we try to achieve best insulation on a reasonable budget. do you think the inside-out-structure is enough in our special situation or are there some better ways how we can do it? greetings j&e [/quote]

If framing lumber isn't ungodly expensive in your area, there really isn't much reason to (and some reasons NOT to) build "inside out" walls - John's original intention for this was mainly for spaces where things are really tight; the "inside out" thing has two main purposes. One is to reduce the need for framing lumber while still providing a frame AND cavities for absorption material (you can staple cloth directly on the ONLY frame after absorption is laced) and to get the most mass in place with limited floor space. The problems with this approach are (1) placing the panels on the outside of the inner frame lessens the air gap, therefore lessening isolation especially at lower frequencies, and (2) several difficulties with build sequence. Where you have adequate space for walls, normal double framed construction is more practical. It just takes a bit more lumber if you're treating the inner walls... Steve

knightfly wrote:

If framing lumber isn't ungodly expensive in your area, there really isn't much reason to (and some reasons NOT to) build "inside out" walls - [...] Where you have adequate space for walls, normal double framed construction is more practical. It just takes a bit more lumber if you're treating the inner walls... Steve

well thanks again, i think lumber isn`t that expensive here in germany "building double framed wall" refers to the question i asked some posts ago. there is alittle confusion here about that double framed wall, as we have always seen the double framed wall alöready as two leafs but as longer as i look on the page where john is explaining his inside-out-wall and the "normal" wall. i begin to understand that a double framed wall isn`t a two leaf wall. am i right here. and as i stated before, if its not too much to ask, we would like to have a sketch for this double-framed-wall that you mentioned a few posts ago. because otherwise i see our condusion rise again :-) greetings jens

See the definitions. Here is an example of a two-leaf, double-framed wall: