Planning my liveroom & controlroom.. no panic

first of all, what a great site!!! past: our bandexerciseroom was used for tracking and mixing in the last 3 years.. present: I'm not happy with the sound (as you can imagine from the pics) and we got the secondroom on the next-wall-side in december. mixing now is like driving a car without steeringwheel.. I use a lot of EQ because my room is so bad. future: I plan to do some roomtreatment for better acoustics.. Roomsize: 8 meters long x 6 (or 5 meters.. sorry my brain) wide x 2.5 meters high... WALL THICKNESS BETWEEN THE 2 Rooms: 20cm, brickwall second room SAME SIZE!! pics: a) currentroom with the whole bunch of bandequipment b) someone designed a plan for me(please NOTE: only the thick lines are walls.. the thin lines was my idea.. forget these comments on a): - the second room is the same size as the first. It's the next room if you go through the door. - budget is very small.. somewhere around 4000$ (I can get some more if needed.. say maximum 7000$) - I don't expect sounds larger than life.. comments on b) - controlroom: the secondspeaker is not possible to get there because I have no space left from the wall to the door.. - the second basstrap in the liveroom is also not possible because of this wonderful door/wall thing.. problems: 1) how does I get a good isolation from Room the controlroom to the liveroom? 2) wallconstruction: witch material to choose? I thought of wood (MDF__ plywood)¦rockwool¦rigips (plasterboard) 3) wall direct to the ground or mounting on neopren? 4. how do you fix the wall, so it's stable?? with a lot of silicon? 5) what about the ceiling? no idea here.. thanx.. and my questions are growing

You need to resize the 1200 pixel wide image... It needs to be no greater than 700 pixels wide as per the rule.

I feel sorry for my ++700px picture.. it was my first post and I didn't read the guidelines properly.. :oops: :oops: :oops: feel free to comment my plans..

george - your drawing isn't very accurate - if you say your rrom is 8m x 6m it would look like this. Cheers john

Maybe something like this would work. Drums are to scale as is everything else and it's a true 5:1 geometry. cheers john

Hey John, Ive noticed you often tend to make Control Rooms that are not symmetrical, and then you use bass traps to make the room symmetrical. Ive even seen you allow a certain part of the room have an odd angle(usually for space I presume). My question is, is that just out of simplicity or does it work just as good as a room thats framed symmetrical and has symmetrical bass traps? Does the thicker side of a bass trap do more work, make the room unbalanced, or is it just the more bass trap you can have the better even if lopsided. I also noticed you dont always room in a room control room or even whole studios. Is it OK to have a Control Room whos frame is coupled to the outer structure? Or is it ultimitly better to room in a room if you can? Heres my current plan. Notice the symmetrical framing at the front(bottom). Should I just square this off or keep it? If I should keep it, what should I do with the wasted corner? Just fill with insulation? Also, my iso is a single walled room. If I shared the adjacent wall of the ISO and the Control Room and kept the CR a single walled, coupled framed room as well, would it be a major loss in sound proofing. It could be a bigger room, but its also the closest to my neighbor, and I work late often. Sorry to borrow your string, but maybe youve been wondering the same thing

hi guys!!! I'm sorry.. I have some problems describing what I mean:) I have: 2 Rooms (Size: 8m long, 6 meter wide as I showed in my first picture) so the total roomlength of both rooms is 16meters!!! and there is a wall in the middle.. so far thank you for your replies!!

Me again:) I read all the answers.. so far so good. the post from mikekloosters was something I was watching out too.. - room in room necessary if I have a solid ground? - where to place the basstraps? Question: - my first picture had some kind of designproblem, because the door is just on the wallside wihtout space (10cm I think) - how to get a good isolation between live and controlroom because of the only wall and the door?

Ok first to George Ok - i get it now two rooms. the brick wall between the rooms - is it load bearing? can you afford to open it up in the middle and put a steel lintel across the openning so you can either have a door or at least a window between the two rooms - whether you build a room within a room is purely defined by what isolation you require. Mike I don't always draw the room within a room as it takes time :):) I assume the poster will decide what way to go. The angular rooms are to designed to give a RFZ (reflection free zone) at the listening position - and yes it makes the rear traps different but IMO thta's a good idea as it breaks up the low end symmetry Mike - you've been hanging around with your room for ages now - your problem is that beam holding up the rear wall where the ceiling angles down Why not try something like this? cheers john

Thanx for answering John, Ive been wantimg to get your input for a while now and resolve some issues Ive been stuck on. Thanx again to George for letting me horde in on his string. I have another string Ill mirror this post on so George cab continue his plans... http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight= Theres some fundamentals about control rooms Id like to clear up. First, I thought you were doing your drawimgs quickly and I totally understand why. As for your suggestion, I think you misunderstood me, as my control rooms front is at the bottom.(see the picture in this thread) I have 16 degree splay and its a little more than 15' wide and a little more than 14' long. Also I wish it were so easy to get rid of the beam, but its structural and as far as I know a pretty major undertaking to remove. Beyond it is the new extention, which is well built but not strong enough to be the end wall. I had once had my control room similar to this and asked if I hang clouds to meet the beam would this be OK and you said yes. Its like a played ceiling I guess. There are alot of obsticles in this design, most of which Ive created myself, but there here.Say La V. I guess Id like to define the principles and also prioritze them so I can get the best room possible. My goals in this studio is to have good isolation and a control room that sounds good as is as large as possible. Id also like to have the live room as alrge as possible. I dont have alot of Iso Room needs and the single walled room I have is totally acceptable. I dont need windows or any other stuff, Its all sound and size for me. I need to know the following.... 1)I know plays need to be at least 6 degrees(12 total) but whats the optimum splay degree? Whats too little?Whats to much? 2)Ive remember learning you want 10' behind you and 10' to either side to let the bass waves complete. I think we both know that aint happening.So, if it cant be that big, is it still good to have it as big as possible? Whats better long or wide, if you have to choose? If you had a shallow back, how do you deal with it? and is it as effective? If you have it more narrow than long, how do you deal, and is it OK? 3)You said its OK for the unsymetrical bass traps, but im still unclear on what is optimum. Im also a freak about stuff I dont totally get, and a unsymmetrical room just trips me out. Is it like a unsymmetrical room is treatable, but a symmetrical room is better, or is it better to have it unsymmentrical? 4)My design provides for a large CR and a large Live Room(as least as I can get them). Is there a certain size a live room has to get before that even matters? I dont need many Iso rooms, but am I making the live room as large as I can for no reason?If I had a foot to move a wall, in my situation which room is it more benificial to make larger the CR or the LR? 5)Ive been studying the construction of this pretty hard, and honestly, I havent really studied the whole bass trap thing yet. I know oyu want 30 degree angled corner traps up front and is it 60 degrees back ? Basically, Id like to know, presuming when Im done building Ill do an in depth study of this, what sizes am I looking at for optimum bass trapping? What are the sizes of thinner versions(like 4" of rigid insul along wall) and how much better or worse do they work? 6) assuming everything is best the way I have it, would it be better to straighten my front wall of my CR(bottom) or leave it symmetrical? 7)Are those sliding doors you always draw, as good as wall and a solid swing door for ISO. SLiding doors are expensive and if they provide lass Isolation and/or weird reflective properties, Id opt for swing doors. If they were good and I didnt have to buy super special ones Id consider slurging on them. What do you think? I feel if I had these kind of fundamentals I can make sure I get the best of both worlds. For instance, if I can have a wide but shallow control, or long and narrow, I can have a bigger live room. If the potential of my live room isnt gonna get big enough to matter, than Ill give it to the CR. Id really appreciate some help here, Im tired of tring to ensure certain things happen that may not even be important..

thank you very much john, for the fast answer! Room in room is answered;) You forgot my 2 other problems: - the door is a big problem for my planed roomdesign! have you got an idea? I can't break out the wall or move something. - basstraps? thanx! e.g.: mike you are a post-napper;) no problem dude! you're welcome!

George if you can't alter that wall I'd do something like this as it gives you a proper shape 5:1 control room which is large and wide PLUS you have a booth right next to it for vocals, guitar odubs etc otherwise you are going to have to use TV. cheers john

wow.. on this, I didn't spent attention;) nice layout.. :) - what about the liveroom.. no additional treating? - going into details.. what do you recomend for wall construction? cheers george

can you belief it? a half year ran down the timeline and I did only planing;) here are my progress so far: 1. I found someone who build me the wall for 800$ including materials (the redwall in the drawing) 2. I found another guy who will build me a floating floor for the control-room (costs: 600$) we will start end of February.. I am aware that this is a prosumer solution, but I want stay there my whole life, so I try keeping things cheap.. additional questions to come:) thanx for the help!!

upgrade.. new wall is there.. tomorrow new floor. http://www.lager9.ch/index.php?option=c ... 2&catid=14

hi there:) It's very simple. I checked options, calculated (more moneycalculation than acousticalcalc), phoned with some guys around the world who are into it.. in switzerland, building material are horendus expensive.. If I take a look at threads guys shittalking about materialprices, its not comparabable.. and ramadamadingding dong, that wall works;) U need to know, that concrit must be spliced (you cut it) to prevent the acousticwaves going through the concrete.. So I have now 38dB damping. Floating floor is in.. will show you some pics later.. all very simple but working great;) next friday 2 more walls will be in. they are only for acoustical treatment. Johns idea would be the absolute max:) but after talking with 2 wood and isolation delears cost will be 28'000 US$ (estimation). my version including woodsman (he has all the tools and the experience) will cost me 3800$ and is enough for starting. then I can work on the imperfection and make it perfect;) whatever perfect or imperfect is. again: I dont want to say, John was wrong, or his idea was not good!! my version is just cheaper and works FOR ME:) and maybe only for me;) will inform you about progress with pics soon:= cheers George