starting to design, completely overwhelmed

I completely didn't want to be 'that guy' who posts this post. I have been lurking on here for several months and taken a lot away from everyone's insight. I have read the FAQ's, purchased books on acoustics, etc. I think i 'get' the mechanics of how to deal with acoustics. I just purchased a house and in typical recording enthusiast fashion, i am going to build that "comfortable place for me to work on my projects and take on other people's projects that interest me.' My complete failure at this comes from being overwhelmed by trying to be creative and figure out how to lay this studio out. I look at the basement and i look at the drawing i've made and i get this unreasonable fear and just freeze and can't think. I'm a graphic designer by trade; i make my living from being creative and this should theoretically be right up my alley but i'm stumped... I have sat on this problem for a few weeks now. I have agonized over it ever since i took possession of the space and immediately measured the dimensions, etc. As a therapeutic process, i built a small webpage with the information that i have gathered about the space (dimensions, photos, what i want out of the space). I have been sending it to friends who are in similar positions hoping they could get me moving on this. It has certainly got a dialog running, but nothing substantial has happened. I'm on my knee's here for advice... The website i put the info up is at: http://www.kobotindustries.com/studio I will also post some of the text and images here... Below are some of the images: smartdraw file: http://kobotindustries.com/studio/basementtry1.sdr What i want in a project studio 1. control room - I would like a decent sized control room that would accomidate me and 2-3 people sitting comfortably with 1-2 more people standing. I never plan to own a ton of gear, but it would be nice to have some space in case this does happen. At this point I don't have the need for a big console either, but in the event that i change my mind, I would like enough room for a modest console. 2. live room - It would be nice to have as large a live room as possible. At the very least, i would like it to be easy to fit drums, bass, and two guitars into the room. I would also like space to sit the guitar player's amps in the room so with a few gobbo's can achieve a decent amount of isolation. I would like the room to be somewhat flexible, offering the option of being modified to be either dead or lively. My main staple is loud rock so i'd like to design the room accordingly. 3. isolation booths - two of them... one that would be suited for a nice dead vocal booth and another that would be good to put a big bass amp in while tracking. The vocal booth would preferably have some windows while the bass booth could be a dark closet. 4. sitting room/extra space for amps - I would like to leave some space by the fireplace in the southeast corner that i could have a couch and a tv to entertain drummers after they're done their tracks. 5. close off basement from upstairs - right now there is no door separating up from down. I would like to try to limit the amount of sound heading upstair. My feeling is a small landing entry at the bottom of the stairs with doorways to the laundry, sitting room, live room and control room. 6. windows - I would like to have a window from the control room to live room, even if its small. 7. Isolation - Some degree of isolation between the live and control room And the studio and the outside world would be nice. Notes on floorplan There are a couple comments on the floorplan. First, I am not afraid to take out the wall between the large area and what would have been a bedroom in the northwest corner. I know there's at least one support pillar in the wall and where the wall is is some sort of joist that is lower than the rest of the joists. There are also two pilars along the heating duct in the main room. The ceiling is currently stucco or plaster. I would appreciate any help i could get to make it over this first hurdle. Was i wrong to think this was gonna be the easiest step? bryan

Welcome to the forum, bryanarchy, and more specifically to the "Just Bought a House with Plans to Fulfill a Dream by Building a Studio in the Garage/Basement/Whatever and Didn't Think it Would Be That Hard" club! First of all, take a deep breath and relax. This will take time. Consider your hesitation (a.k.a. "temporary paralasis") to be a blessing. Contrast that with others who rushed to get things done, only to realize later that they made critical mistakes that essentially require that much or all of what was done must be "undone" to make things right. :shock: For me, this forum has given (and continues to give) me not only the opportunity to learn so much, but also to relate and connect with those in similar circumstances -- kind of a de facto support group! :lol: I checked out your Web page. Nice pictures and good information. You may want to consider copying or moving all of that info to this thread, as it will make things much easier for the experts here to give advice when everything is continguous. You can (and probably should) leave the images hosted where they are, and then reference them from your thread inline, like this: Northeast Corner (See the post that immediate follows this one for the syntax.) I realize you're focused on layout right now, but you'll need to make some decisions about the amount of isolation you'll need between studio and outdoors, as well as studio and rest-of-house. I'm sure others will have other suggestions, but that's my intro piece. You will get through this. :mrgreen:

Here's the syntax to "include" an image without attaching it: Northeast Corner

I know i'm not alone in this process and it is clear that this is a great community of people working towards something awesome. I will edit my first post to add the images, etc. I have thought about isolation a fair amount. The lack of a door at the top or the bottom of the stairs has to be addressed. There is really no isolation at this point for anyone wanting to relax upstairs as drums are banged. As for the studio/outside issue, the amount of leakage right now is actually not that bad. When there is music going on in the basement, the leakage is limited to the bass guitar and some drums, namely the kick. I think this is mostly transmission through vibration in the house, so i believe it can be reduced significantly by decoupling the drums and bass from the floor. Obviously i'd like some isolation for the control room from the live room, but i'm also wanting to do this with a reasonable budget and am happy if i get moderate isolation. thanks, bryan

When there is music going on in the basement, the leakage is limited to the bass guitar and some drums, namely the kick. I think this is mostly transmission through vibration in the house, so i believe it can be reduced significantly by decoupling the drums and bass from the floor.

Read the recording manual at the opening page of the website. I can guarantee you that the sound is NOT going through the flooe to the upsatirs.! Get familiar with the basics, which you should have done if you have been reading here for several months... Andre

AVare wrote:

Read the recording manual at the opening page of the website. I can guarantee you that the sound is NOT going through the flooe to the upsatirs.! Get familiar with the basics, which you should have done if you have been reading here for several months... Andre

I'm sorry, i guess i am misinformed or misunderstand the concept then. This is from the manual:

Floating the rooms. A typical construction consists of creating new rooms within your existing rooms. This means building a floor on top of the existing floor with neoprene isolation pads and Rockwool on the underside and then building walls and a ceiling using the new floor as a base. This is the ideal system for total isolation because the new room is not mechanically connected to the main room but it is also the most expensive system. The main advantage of floating rooms is the low frequency isolation it gives. If you are building in a block of flats it would be essential as it is the only real way of achieving total sound isolation but if you are building a garage studio it really would depend on how much isolation you require. If you are an acoustic folk band - forget it - if you are a heavy metal power band it is essential because it is the only way you will stop the bass and kick drum from annoying your neighbours.

Am I using the term decoupling incorrectly or something? Did i read this wrong?

AVare wrote:

Read the recording manual at the opening page of the website. I can guarantee you that the sound is NOT going through the flooe to the upsatirs.! Get familiar with the basics, which you should have done if you have been reading here for several months...

Oh, SNAP! :o Don't mind Andre, Bryan ... he is not quite as friendly as a WAL*MART greeter (aka Keith Sharward :lol: ), but he does really want to help :wink: Sorry Andre, I couldn't resist ... you really are a stern schoolmaster sometimes :twisted: but i still luv ya! :P ... and you too Keith!! Dan

Bryanarchy: Nothing to apologize. When you wrote that you had been lurking, you would have read and that LF is the most difficult to isolate and that in basementsthe ceiling and flanking paths are the weakest points usually. You have already identfied the stairwell :) Teh more you know, the better we can help you with your design. Good luck and keep the posts coming! Andre

Absolutely Andre! I'm trying to learn as much as i can. If i thought i knew everything i wouldn't be posting on here. I am planning on being very realistic of my goals of sound reduction. I care the most about disturbing the neighbours and at this point with no treatment, the leakage to the outside is below what city regulations for noise. That being said, i would still like to reduce it a bit more out of respect for the neighbours. Right now, i'm just blocked as to how to partition the space the best. Once i have a coarse idea, then i can address details like sound transmission, etc. bryan

Hi Bryan - this is what my first impression is. cheers john

Bryan: Makes sense. John gave a nice idea in the previous post. You mentioned regulationsfor noise. What are the regulations? Andre

AVare wrote:

Bryan: Makes sense. John gave a nice idea in the previous post. You mentioned regulationsfor noise. What are the regulations? Andre

The regulation is that anything over 70db of noise must be limited to 2 hours per day, 75db @ 1 hour/day, etc. After 10 pm, 50db cannot be exceeded. I have no plans to record after 8 pm anyways. It's always been a rule of mine to not disturb neighbours at previous homes. The readings i have taken outside my house with music in the basement (with all windows closed, etc) have been a maximum of 68db hovering closer to an average of 65. My neighborhood, which is somewhat close to a freeway has a background level of about 55-60 on its own during the day and into the evening. It's quieter in the morning and after 7pm, up to 55db. I have talked to the neighbours and they said it's only barely audible in their homes and are alright with the level that it is now. I would like to show some courtesy and try to reduce a bit more if possible. My neighbours on both sides are very nice people (musicians on one side, an older couple on the other) and I owe it to them to limit the amount of noise leakage.

John Sayers wrote:

Hi Bryan - this is what my first impression is. cheers john

John, Yeah, this is getting the juices flowing! My biggest problem was to decide if the live room should be on the east or west side... what do you think of this: or maybe this: Is having an "L" shape a bad idea for a live room?

bryanarchy wrote:

The regulation is that anything over 70db of noise must be limited to 2 hours per day, 75db @ 1 hour/day, etc. After 10 pm, 50db cannot be exceeded. . .

:shock: Wow! :shock: Your municipality is very liberal with its noise laws! Mine's much more strict... In a nutshell, the objective standard calls for no greater than 55db(A) between 7 AM and 10 PM (5db less after hours), and the subjective standard prohibits "loud, unnecessary or unusual noise which disturbs the peace and quiet of any neighborhood or which causes discomfort or annoyance to any reasonable person of normal sensitiveness residing in the area." I must be in compliance with both standards. :oops: Kudos to you for knowing what your noise regulations are. :mrgreen:

sharward wrote:

:shock: Wow! :shock: Your municipality is very liberal with its noise laws! Mine's much more strict... In a nutshell, the objective standard calls for no greater than 55db(A) between 7 AM and 10 PM (5db less after hours), and the subjective standard prohibits "loud, unnecessary or unusual noise which disturbs the peace and quiet of any neighborhood or which causes discomfort or annoyance to any reasonable person of normal sensitiveness residing in the area." I must be in compliance with both standards. :oops: Kudos to you for knowing what your noise regulations are. :mrgreen:

I think it comes from being in bands jamming in basements for the last 10 years and also putting on allages shows at community halls. i have an intimate understanding of the noise bylaws.... The key to not worry so much about this is good dialog with neighbours... neighbours that know you're good people (or neighbours you regularly bribe with movie passes) are more apt to let it slide if you get carried away with volume now and again. I really feel sorry for you, if the 55db law wasn't bad enough, the subjective noise standard is absolute trash... It's like the sonic patriot act! I guess that is when the good neighbour policy comes in handy... b

Is having an "L" shape a bad idea for a live room?

Not at all - If I'd known you could knock out that wall I would have drawn it like your version 2.:) cheers john

John, I have a couple questions about the control room... Is this just a standard size or shape that you prefer? The reason i'm wondering is to do with the overhead duct. Will the duct cause any trouble or is it alright sitting at that back of the room like that? Thanks for the input, it was just what i needed... Bryan

Bryan - the low part of the ceiling will be over the couch at the rear of the control room - your max height will be just behind the listening position and sloping back from there, which is cool. ;) cheer john