AT's Studio in the Garage

Thanks Steve for all the important points.

…they will actually AMPLIFY instead of isolate

Is this only due to the weight on top of the EPDM pucks or combination of all the other elements in the design?

If you want more than 1" MDF on top, 2x6's on 16" centers would be necessary

You mean for the whole construction (floors, walls and ceiling)?:shock: That would really eat-up a whole chunk of space, as it is already tiny :?

Greetings Alex I'd like to comment on your inner room design if I may, in particular the proposed floating floors.... Currently you have designed walls and ceilings with only 2 layers of drywall. This will only stop the Mids and highs. You current floor ( I presume is concrete ) is already much better at stopping the mids and highs than your wall designs. If you build a floating floor out of 2 layers of board, as you propose it will be too lightweight to to stop anything but the mids and highs. Which you original floor is much better at already. So for your current wall and ceiling design a floating floor is pointless. It is pointless even if you build a proper concrete floating floor with a low enough resonant fequency to stop the bass, because the walls and ceilings will simply let the bass thourgh anyway. A floating floor should only really be considered if you design the room that sits upon it where the walls and ceiling have a low enough resonant frequency to stop bass. Which means they need to have a LOT MORE MASS than your current design. I would advise putting the resources ( Time, effort and $$ ) that you've reserved for your floating floors into creating much heavier walls and ceilings instead. A room within a room ( without a floating floor ) which is really heavy will give you much better TL than a lightweight room on a lightweight floating floor. A Lightweight Floating floor is pointless with a lightweight room ( such as yours ), because your original floor already exceeds the TL specs of your walls and ceiling. A lightweight floating floor is also pointless with a heavyweight room. Even a heavyweight floating floor is pointless with a lightweight room in top of it. IOW a lightweight floating floor is pointless period for room within a room designs. See this discussion for more details http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1653 hope that helps Paul :)

Thanks Paul, That clears up some of the details about floating floors. Sadly, so far it seems like floating my floors will be pointless since I can't put that much mass on it due to overhead limitations... bummer :cry: However, I can’t use the existing concrete floor as it is for the basis of my floor. Still need to use 2x4s floated or non-floated so I can deal with vapor and leveling. Seems like there is a sacrifice to be made in between good insulation and good acoustics. Given the choice I’d rather have better interior acoustics. What is the best way to approach this problem considering the limitations and the tight space I’m working in?

knightfly wrote:

Still haven't gotten enough time to finish what I started...

Any good news for me Steve? :)

Such being the case, probably building a frame (level) and filling it with dry sand then covering with two layers of 3/4 OSB would be a good way to go - Rod Gervais has done several of these, maybe we can get him to share some tips... Steve

...building a frame (level) and filling it with dry sand... Steve

Hey Steve, Couple of questions: Would this “frame filled with sand” be floating on rubber pucks or just on top of the existing concrete floor? Is sand better alternative to rockwool for my design?

:oops: Edited - I misunderstood the question and answered incorrectly! :oops:

My main concern is that there will NOT be as much mass on walls and the ceiling. :? Would adding another layer of sheetrock to walls and ceiling help? I just don't want to put extra money and effort unless there is an effective enough improvement. What do you guys think? How about this for the floor?:

Considering your space available, I'm inclined to agree with Paul; your walls/ceiling will be the deciding factor here, up to the point you could spare about 18" total thickness for two heavy leaves and at least 12" air gap. Rather than take up nearly a foot of ceiling height with a floor that won't be matched by walls/ceiling, it would make more sense (the more I look at it) to look into just leveling the concrete (more concrete) and adding at least one more layer to each wall/ceiling leaf. (It's still going to be "fun" figuring out your outer ceiling leaf; putting both on the same framing limits air gap and mandates using RC or similar, and there is still the roof acting as a third leaf. To see if you have moisture problems, lay a piece of thin metal (like flashing) flat against the floor for a couple of days; pick it up fairly early in the morning, and if it (and/or the floor) is damp, there's a moisture problem... Steve

Wish had more space to spare :(

AlexT wrote:

...building a frame (level) and filling it with dry sand... Steve

Hey Steve, Couple of questions: Would this “frame filled with sand” be floating on rubber pucks or just on top of the existing concrete floor? Is sand better alternative to rockwool for my design?

Nope - it doesn't float on pucks. It's just a great way to both level a floor without creating a drum head (which is what will happen with a deck and rockwool) and also creates a real nice chaseway to run plastic conduit for low voltage wiring from the live room to the control room. It's what is done in a lot of pro studios when building within an existing building. I would not do it with new construction. Rod

Thanks Steve and Rod, I had the concrete floors checked for moisture and leveling and luckily the floor is leveled and no moisture problem. Seems like floating the floor will do NADA for my design. From what I understand reading the link Paul had suggested it is better to use the existing concrete floor. According to Scenario C: Do I just layer OSB and hardwood flooring directly on top of the “existing” concrete floor?

Paul wrote:

Scenario A: This is the best. BUT... only worth it if BOTH the Floating Floor AND the walls and ceiling are HEAVY. Can't have concrete? Put steel plates in the floor. Scenario B: Is pointless. Use the money, time and effort to make the walls and ceiling much heavier, turning it into a quality Scenario C Scenario C: 2nd best. The heavier the walls and ceiling are the closer it will get to Scenario A. Cutting the original slab in the air gap will get you even closer to Scenario A Make sense? Paul

hi alex, fellow bay area dude, i'm at the exact same point as you, trying to figure out whether to leave the slab bare or somehow floor over it with some additional layer, perhaps a thin sand layer (i've pretty much decided not to float). i know one thing, you do not want ANY airgaps of even 1 or 2 mm. i think it might be the easiest thing to go with bare slab. as far as isolation goes, there is nothing that needs to be added to the slab, it already isolates very well. that's what my research tells me. the tough part will be building a ceiling (or even wall) that isolates as well as the slab floor does ... as knightfly has said, it will take a good 3+ inches of gypsum (in other words FIVE 5/8 inch layers :shock: ) in BOTH leaves with around a foot of airgap to approach the TL (or, actually, flanking TL) of the existing slab floor. p.s. you are lucky to be able to keep your garage door functional, i'm going to have to block mine :cry: dan

Thanks Dan, You’re right; it is senseless to float. I don’t seem to have much of a moisture problem, however would still like to raise the floor… just to be on the safe side. I’m still not too clear about the sand technique. Is it basically a 2x4 frame filled with sand with regular floor layers on top of it? Is there a picture or link to how it is actually constructed? :idea:

Is it basically a 2x4 frame filled with sand with regular floor layers on top of it? i'm assuming so ... very important not to have any air betwen the sand and the floor surface that's for sure. if you are just leveling maybe you don't need a full 2x4 thickness either ... but others may be able to give more tips ... dan

... very important not to have any air betwen the sand and the floor surface that's for sure... dan

This is exactly what I’m wondering about! How can sand be packed so that there is no air space between the top floor surface and the sand?

AlexT wrote:

Thanks Dan, You’re right; it is senseless to float. I don’t seem to have much of a moisture problem, however would still like to raise the floor… just to be on the safe side. I’m still not too clear about the sand technique. Is it basically a 2x4 frame filled with sand with regular floor layers on top of it? Is there a picture or link to how it is actually constructed? :idea:

Raising the floor won't cure a moisture problem. water travels upwards quite easily due to capillary action. Especially in sand ;) If you're worried about moisture you should simply put down a Damp Proof Membrane ( thick plastic sheet ) OR seal the concrete with a water proof sealent. Much cheaper and easier than messing around with pointless raised floors ;) Paul

Thanks Paul, It seems like my FLOOR issue is getting simpler and simpler. :) My next question is: How do I layer hardwood flooring over Vapor Barrier?

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:

hi alex, fellow bay area dude,

Yeah, fellow Northern California dude -- you (AlexT) need to join us! :cool:

i'm at the exact same point as you, trying to figure out whether to leave the slab bare or somehow floor over it with some additional layer, perhaps a thin sand layer (i've pretty much decided not to float).

Dan! So you're abandoning the idea of floating, eh? But, but, you're my hero! :roll: ;)

haha hi keith ... getting me back for when i said that to you ... that was back when i thought floating was always a good thing ... now i've learned that it's a lot more complicated :P no i'm not floating, for reasons i'm sure you've been following. if you have any disagreement to that decision, i'd love to hear it :D i have a comment to add about your situation, but i'll stick that in your thread a bit later. dan

sharward wrote:

Alex you need to join us

Just did Kieth :)

Dan! So you're abandoning the idea of floating, eh?

I agree with Dan, seems like floating a small studio is more of a risk than an advantage. Anyhow, my next question to Steve, Paul and all you other wizards is: How do I layer hardwood flooring over Vapor Barrier/Damp Proof Membrane... since gluing is not an option on a plastic sheet? Would using one of those Home Depot foam/plastic hardwood-floor underlayments work for acoustical purposes? I'm just worried since nothing is glued straight to the floor? Alex

AlexT wrote:

How do I layer hardwood flooring over Vapor Barrier/Damp Proof Membrane... since gluing is not an option on a plastic sheet? Would using one of those Home Depot foam/plastic hardwood-floor underlayments work for acoustical purposes? I'm just worried since nothing is glued straight to the floor? Alex

Alex, You do not put poly vapor barrier down over concrete prior to ANY floring - this would NOT be a good idea. Typically we seal concrete floors prior to application of hardwood flooring - - BUT - and this is an important BUT - I can't reccomend a sealer to you. !st you have to decide who's flooring you are going to use - then you have to contact the manufacturer's engineering dept to have THEM specify a sealer that is compatible with their mastic. Once you have that info it's simple - seal the floor - let the sealer cure - install the wood flooring. Rod

rod gervais wrote:

1st you have to decide who's flooring you are going to use - then you have to contact the manufacturer's engineering dept to have THEM specify a sealer that is compatible with their mastic. Once you have that info it's simple - seal the floor - let the sealer cure - install the wood flooring. Rod

Thanks Rod, That clears it all :) Is there any kind of hardwood flooring that would be recommended for this kind of directly over the concrete application? …And is there any kind that I should NOT use or be cautioned about? :idea:

AlexT wrote:

Is there any kind of hardwood flooring that would be recommended for this kind of directly over the concrete application? …And is there any kind that I should NOT use or be cautioned about? :idea:

Nope - they are all pretty much the same - obviously the thicker the more expensive the better............. The key with all of them is never get them wet - not even damp. As in - clean them with exactly what the manufacturer says to and nothing else. We lost the warranty on a floor ($25,000 floating dance floor) once because the client had a gent from Russia who was their building maintenance person - and he would damp mop - and I mean damp mop - not wet mop - the floor - and it failed due to expansion problems. Once the manufacturer found out how it happened it was all over. And no matter how hard we tried - no one could convince Borris (yup - really his name) that a damp mop hurt Hartco Floor products. Oh - one other thing - don't avoid HArtco because of this story - they do make an excellent product. Rod

I have finally started my construction after months of discussions, reading and learning from the helpful pros on this forum :D For my situation floating the floor was not worth the effort… I know most of you guys won’t like this but I decided to go with a heavy single wall construction… :shock: :lol: Mainly due to space limitations plus I don’t work too loud During the last 2 years I’ve been tracking and mixing in one of the bedrooms (not sound proofed) and so far had no complaints. On couple of occasions I even tracked African and Chinese percussion players in my living room... :twisted: ...without any complaints. Yeah sure… anything to justify my single wall construction! 8) I was away during the initial construction but my wife archived each step with loads of pix. A carpenter friend is doing most of the heavy construction under my guidance.

Tracking booth framing just about done. My comments under picture attachments don't show up :? What do I do for it to work?