Starting from scratch,newbie help needed!

First off, let me just say that never has a google search paid off more than when I entered the following: "studio construction" site:au! Now, I have my own house. There's currently a study at the back corner of the house which I would like to extend into the backyard in the hope of turning it into a small practice studio (with the focus being keeping inside noises in, away from neighbors). I'll need room for a drum kit, and a few guitars and amps, and perhaps a couch! I have no handyman genes that I'm aware of and thus require some (lots of) assistance in getting this process going. I have reasonable expectations of the timeframe involved, and am hoping to have the project finished by June - August 2004. Basically the study as it currently stands is about 2.5m x 4m, the aim is somehow to extend the room beyond it's external wall so the 2.5m becomes around 7.5m - 8m. I don't know if it's easier/more sensible/whatever to knock out the external wall and extend the study, or to build a standalone construction close to the external wall and connect the two rooms with a double door. If that makes sense. Attached is a very rough, out of scale map of my house, with the study and proposed studio at bottom left. If anyone can give me any hints as to where to start, who to contact, what to do, even with the little info I've provided here, I'd be most grateful. Indeed if there's a company that specialises in this sort of thing, I'd like to know! I'm going to document the whole process on my website once things get started to keep all informed. Thanks a bunch!

Hi Ben - welcome to the site. There's a a lot of info needed here, like - what construction is your house?? I assume it's a brick veneer?? What ever it is you'll have to do a full house extension, extending the foundations, roofing etc. You really need an architect to do this for you so you can submit it to council etc. You should also go to my site http://johnlsayers.com and access the recording manual at the SAE site which covers acoustics etc. Also go to the Studios Under Construction site and check out what others have built. cheers john

Wow, fast relpy! Thanks John. Yep, as I said, I have very little knowledge going into this, so it's a bit scary! I suppose what I need to find is some sort of architect/consultant that may have done this sort of thing before. I'm not by no means treating this as a do it yourself project. I guess I'm just after some info on how to get the process started. I've arranged for a builder friend to come over on the weekend and help me put into words what I actually want to do. Hopefully he can give me some indication of whether it's possible too! FYI, it is a brick veneer house. Thanks for your help, it's going to be an interesting ride...

Cool - if it's a brick veneer then it'll have a truss roof that will need to be extended. Ask you builder about a scissor truss to give you an angled ceiling which will help acoustically. cheers john

Also, for your own sanity you should have this builder, ESPECIALLY if he's not done studio construction before, ALSO check out John's links and ask questions - we've had 'way too many people hire non-acoustic trained "handymen" to do things that really should get torn out so the RIGHT stuff can be built. Especially in your case where you're wanting to use acoustic drums, there are right and wrong ways to build for sound proofing - and, given a free rein, most builders that aren't experienced with sound will nearly ALWAYS choose the WRONG way... Steve

Okay, some major changes to my goals now... 1. No longer a studio, now a soundproof 'Rumpus Room' where I can practise my drumming and guitar(ing) without disturbing the neighbors. 2. Changed the location to the bottom end of the property next to the loungeroom. Have a look at the plans page: http://benhughes.info/studioproject So, in effect I don't really care about what the sound inside the room is like, only that the sound needs to stay IN THE ROOM! Given that the new building will be built next to the loungeroom, what do I need to consider to make sure people in the loungeroom watching a DVD don't hear noise from the rumpus room? Also, as the building is yet to be built, it's probably a good time to ask if there are any specific foundation types that will provide better soundproofing? I'm happy to fork out for decent insulation/soundproofing materials, as I'm scrapping the recording component of the project has freed up plenty of moolah! Any suggestion appreciated. EDIT: I'm also looking at using a material called SonicPly on the interior walls - http://www.misterplywood.com.au (click through to Exclusive Products). Has anyone used or heard of this stuff before?

Well Ben - firstly build a room within a room construction. i.e float a new room within your addition. I assume you will continue with the same brick as the rest of the house and continue the truss roofing. To stop the parallel floor ceiling consider using scissor trusses so you start with an angled ceiling. Then you must treat the inner room acoustically so your drums sound OK ;) BTW - aren't you going to have a door (preferably double door) between the lounge and rumpus room?? cheers john

Thanks, John. The building will not extend the existing roof (too expensive). The new room's floor level will be 1.5 - 2 feet lower than that of the lounge, so I won't be building the new room as high as the lounge (which has quite high ceilings). I'm not sure why there is no door between the lounge and the rumpus - perhaps I was thinking that it would reduce the soundproofing between the 2 rooms? Also, the diagrams don't show that there is decking between the sliding door of the lounge and the entry to the rumpus room. The new building will have an angled ceiling, so I guess that's a good thing to begin with. I'm not sure about the 'room within a room' idea though - is this absolutely necessary for just soundproofing, and will it be much more expensive? Remembering that I'm not overly concerned with the sound inside the room. I might actually get some photos of the site so you can see what I mean, as building speak is not my 1st language... Stay tuned, and thanks again. EDIT: added pic of rough proposal...

Another thing... I have a certain amount of flexibility as far as the height of the new room is concerned. Given that the room will be about 4m wide, how high should the low and high sides of the angled ceiling be? I guess the low side should be at least my height (6'3")...? It's getting difficult to explain myself here, but when you enter the new room, you'll actually step down a couple of feet from the floor level of the loungeroom. I'll get my boss's digital cam on Friday and get some pics for you. Thanks again John and Knightfly for your help. Let me know if you have an Amazon.com wishlist - as I feel like I'm stretching the bounds of 'free advice'!

Cool Ben - I'm getting a picture of where you are going. The low side of the ceiling will have to be at least 7 ft (2.1m) simply to meet council specs. BTW - Ben do you know a Tony Hughes who moved to OZ from NZ in the late 50s?? cheers john

Cheers John, Sorry, I don't know any Tony Hughes! So lets say the low side was 8', then given the width of the room is 13' what would the high side be (is there a formula I can use to get the best result)? Also I think I need some pointers as to the actual surface of the ceiling...?

Your other wall will need to be around 10' 6" if your other wall is 8 ft. If you make the other wall 7' the wall should be around 9' 6" cheers john

Ben, if you're willing to go outside thru the slider and enter the practice room like your earlier picture, you would get better isolation from the lounge. Also, if you use a common wall as you've shown you will reduce the effectiveness of sound proofing considerably. It's entirely too easy to build flanking paths thru the solid connections in attached buildings, and these will defeat a good portion of your sound proofing attempts. Especially at the low drum frequencies. If you really don't want anyone in the lounge to be distracted by your "thrashing of the skins", I'd go for a completely free-standing building that you enter thru the outside door. That, and storm door/window construction (double glass) will go a long way toward keeping "harmony" in your drumming... Steve

Okay, getting there I think...steep learning curve! I'm going to talk to a draftperson and a builder next week, so I need this clear in my head. What I'll be asking for is... - A standalone brick structure built close to, but not attached to the external loungeroom wall. - Entry will be via external double door. - Windows to be double-glass - Ceiling to be angled ( eg 10'6" sloping down to 8' ) Other things I probably should try to understand... - What materials/specs to consider for the flooring...? - What materials/specs to consider for the walls - What materials/specs to consider for roof/ceiling You guys must love answering these questions....!

Ben, you've got the right idea mostly. If your budget allows, and your room really will be dedicated to the particular purpose, you would get better isolation (lounge, neighbors) by doing as John suggested early on and building a full room-in-room construction. Get back to me if you want more info on this. Another improvement to standard Aussie walls (brick, furred out wallboard) is to just increase the air gap and double/triple the inner wallboard. I couldn't find much info on Mr. Plywood's Sonic Ply, but came across another ridiculous "deal" on acoustic ply - it's two layers of 5/8" ply separated by a 1/4" layer of acoustic snake oil stuff, and two layers of 1/16" other type snake oil stuff, STC rating of 30-something by itself - priced at $180 per 4'x8' sheet, in USD (what a deal) I guess if you had more money than time, something like that might be OK - it kind of follows the adage "Good, Fast, Cheap - pick any TWO - you can NEVER have all THREE" - - What materials/specs to consider for the flooring...? - What materials/specs to consider for the walls - What materials/specs to consider for roof/ceiling Flooring - concrete is good, heavy wood floated on rubber over concrete is better, concrete floated over concrete is best. Walls - see several paragraphs above - if floating walls on a floated floor, multi-layer gypsum board is good, adding rockwool or Knauf board helps, masonry + stood off gypsum is best. Ceilings - double layer, double leaf gyp board is good, adding Resilient Channel helps several dB, deeper air gap is better, isolated from walls with neoprene helps too. If you can, a rough idea of budget and real world isolation needs would help eliminate some of the methods... Steve

knightfly wrote:

If you can, a rough idea of budget and real world isolation needs would help eliminate some of the methods...

Thanks Steve. Total budget (start to finish) is around $40k AUD with an absolute ceiling of $50k (that's when a home loan 'top-up' becomes 'refinancing'). The one thing I'm trying to keep in mind is that the room should be considered a rumpus room, not purely a music room. The idea is that when I'm playing my drums, people outside the rumpus room would hear at most a vague background thumping. Rough (very rough) budget breakdown is as follows: Drafts, plans, approvals, red tape - < $3k Construction (labour & materials) - < $30k Soundproofing & fitout - < $10k (not including a nice Sonor drum kit!) The room-in-room idea is tempting, but I'm worried mostly about the impact on floor space, and I guess the cost is a slight concern too. Sounds like the SonicPly might be a bit of a gimic. Given that no-one here has heard of it, I have my suspicions. Thanks again. Ben.

Ben, on the Sonic Ply - I'm not saying it won't do what they claim, I just couldn't justify $180 a sheet (if that's what it runs) compared to maybe $16 for THREE sheets of gyprock. The thickness isn't that much different, and there are much better ways of spending money than wasting $160 for each 4 x 8 foot section of wall. To keep floor space loss to a minimum and still get good isolation, I'd go with my previous suggestion - "Another improvement to standard Aussie walls (brick, furred out wallboard) is to just increase the air gap and double/triple the inner wallboard. " If you do that, with no shared walls between the rest of the house and the "rumpus" room, you should be fine... Steve

Thanks Steve, I see what you're saying now. I think I'll go with your previous suggestion. Are there any diagrams around of such a method? Just so I can explain it to my draftsperson/builder. Getting back to ceiling height, what would be the optimal height (if there is one). Remembering that the room width will be about 13 feet. I have a bit of vertical space to play with (probably 14 feet on the high side would be the maximum). Also, for the 2 windows is double glazing best? Cheers yet again.

Ben, go here - http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm scroll down to "brick veneer" and look at the second example. Now, look at my modification (attached) this should exceed STC 63, and the brick will help improve the lower freq's not taken into account in the STC method (good for drums) Just remember about proper caulk, and that there should be close to total separation physically between the brick and the inner wall. If this isn't possible due to something I'm not aware of, you would need to get some Resilient Channel and mount the two layers of wallboard on the channel for isolation. On dimensions, your length is such that a wider room (16 feet) would allow nearly exact duplication of one of the Sepmeyer ratios, using an average ceiling height of 10 feet. (1:1.6:2.33) - If you don't want to, or cant, do that then you should keep the average ceiling height at 10 feet. That would give you almost 3,000 cubic feet in the room which should sound pretty good. There would be a slight "hole" in room response at around 32 hZ, but basically a pretty even sound. You would still need to do some wall treatment after the room is up to control flutter echo (parallel walls) The ceiling needs to have at least 2'9" rise in 13 feet in order to have a 12 degree slope, which John has found is about minimum to eliminate flutter echoes - this will leave only the walls to treat for that problem. If you made the high side 12 feet and the low side 8 feet, you would average 10 feet, control flutter echo, and probably simplify the building somewhat. On windows, you should use double WINDOWS, each of which is double glazed. The windows will be your weakest link in the sound isolation. You should frame inner and outer windows separately, as shown in the pic here but without tilting the glass. http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... indows.htm If you can, find two windows that are heavy and two that are slightly lighter in mass, and use one of each for each pair of facing windows. You want the glass in one half of a double window to be a different mass than that of the facing window, for less leakage. Oops, almost forgot to attach the modified wall pic... Steve

Here's a 'before' pic for anyone interested. When the new fence goes in I'll grab another shot...

Ben, good pic - it brings up another question though - if you're planning to put the door into the new room about where the porch ends, am I right in assuming that you're going to cut the existing porch back about even with the existing slider, and start your steps down to the new room from there? Always keep in mind, that whatever you do, you want no physical connections between the existing construction and the new room. Any concrete work should be separate especially. I saw a sound attenuation chart the other day that claimed concrete only attenuates structure-borne sound by about 0.1 dB per 100 feet. Other material weren't much better. I'm a little concerned about the entrance to the new room - if you were to stand inside the new room, looking out the door and to the left as your picture shows, how far/what is there in that direction? I'm talking about the path alongside your existing building, wondering about neighbors and whether you might need TWO sliders in order to quiet things enough... Steve

Another wall option is to do this Ben. Because the brick veneer construction starts with the internal tinber walls being built you could line them with double drywall and seal it off BEFORE you add the brick outer layer which is rendered fully on one side only. You can save some space here as well as having the internal walls treated acoustically. cheers john

John, unless I'm missing something here that woudn't be possible on the side toward the existing construction unless the two were far enough apart to be able to access the new wall from the outside (between the old and new) - In fact, neither of our proposed wall methods would work on that side as far as I can see - from the picture, it doesn't look like there's enough room to separate the new construction by enough to get between walls and add the brick. You'd almost have to do some kind of "tip-up" wall on the common side, or build concrete block wall there, in order to have physically separate outer walls - So what am I missing here??? Ben, what say you? Is there enough room there for outside access to the part of the new wall that will parallel the old? ... Steve

Yeah - I see what you mean Steve. If you put up the brick wall first, rendered it on the inside, then stood up the pre drywalled and sealed wall you could do it. The others are fine because you do the timber wall drywalled and sealed and then follow with the brick. Now connection to the trusses is another matter;);) cheers john

Trusses??!? He wants trusses??!? Man, I though you Aussies were tough, now I'm hearing roof talk... :=)