FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

happy new year keith! just checking in to see if you had finished yet! i was thinking i would see a completed project and you jammin away and be jealous. so anyway hurry up and get going all right? ok i've had a few beers so don't mind my ramblin. bye now.

Alright Keith, back to the studio- I don't want to finish mine first! You're my inspiration!

I really don't want to go through 90-something pages, but what happened to this guy's build? I've never seen so many pages and crazy-detail as Keith's build. Why has production stopped?

I just got approved for a whole week off next week, during which I hope to accomplish a lot on the room. I'll be ordering my HRV tonight or tomorrow (yikes, it's expensive!). I'm cutting it dangerously close to my building permit expiration date (again) and need to get the ventilation piece done so that they can sign off on it, which will extend my expiration date again. Not that I want to keep dragging this thing out! In other news, believe it or not, I may be stacking even more upon my already busy plate. Tomorrow I'll be auditioning to play in a cover band. I'm pretty excited about it but I also know that it would be a time commitment. Fortunately their schedule isn't too hectic (usually one rehearsal every two weeks, plus no more than two gigs per month). A good friend of mine is in the band and the opportunity arose, so I'm going to go for it. While in theory there will be time away from the build, I'm hoping it will help motivate me because it's been a long time since I've played and it will remind me why the heck I'm building this damned thing! Look forward to seeing a lot of pictures and not a whole lot of turning back. Sorry I've been so absent and totally eyes-off around here. Not quite the moderator role model, huh? :oops: --Keith :mrgreen:

Today didn't start well. This morning I called the company from which I ordered my HRV system to check on the status of the delivery. It ends up that it hadn't shipped yet and was not expected to ship anytime soon due to a backorder at Fantech! :evil: I drove to a local HVAC wholesaler to check on availability there. I learned they don't stock them either and it would take two to four weeks, depending on manufacturer. DAMN. If I had known that buying HRVs required that much lead time, I would have bought one a long time ago and had it waiting for me when I was ready to work on it! :roll: I called Fantech directly and learned that there's one in their Reno (Nevada) warehouse, but it was already set aside for another order, and that three more were heading to Reno on a truck with an arrival date of Thursday. A little sweet-talking on my part resulted in their giving me the one in Reno and earmarking one of the three for the other order. I want my hands on this thing very badly, so tomorrow morning I'm heading to Reno to pick it up! I've been to Reno before -- depending on the time of year, it can be an easy and beautiful drive along Interstate 80 through the Sierras, or it can be a wintery, snowy, difficult and/or dangerous drive. Guess which way it is this week? :(

CHAINS ARE REQUIRED ON ALL VEHICLES EXCEPT 4-WHEEL-DRIVE VEHICLES WITH SNOW TIRES ON ALL 4 WHEELS FROM KINGVALE (PLACER CO) TO TRUCKEE (NEVADA CO) . . . SNOW IS EXPECTED TO POSE AN INCONVENIENCE TO TRAVELERS. ROADS WILL BE SLICK AND HAZARDOUS...WITH SNOW AND ICE DEVELOPING ON BRIDGES AND OVERPASSES. MOTORISTS SHOULD SLOW DOWN AND USE CAUTION.

I bought snow cables for my tires and new windshield wiper blades. Tomorrow morning I'm heading up the mountain on my HRV quest. ...Provided they don't close I-80! :roll:

Ouch! I have taken that drive many, many times. (I grew up in Sacramento, and most of my family still lives there). Good luck, it can be hell in bad weather, and take 8 hours or more when it is really bad.

Hey James! Long see no time. Thanks for tuning in! I'm in Reno (actually, sparks) right now, enjoying a buffet lunch after shoehorning the HRV into the car. That's one big sucker! :shocked: The drive over the summit was beautiful at times, somewhat concerning at others. There were no chain restrictions on passenger cars on the way over and hopefully none in place for the way back when I'm done stuffing myself. I took some pictures of the adventure and I'll post 'em later! --Keith :mrgreen:

Photos from today's HRV fetch experience... Like you've never seen a freeway with snow on the sides of it... ;) Thankfully, chains were not required -- but I had them just in case. Here's Donner Summit -- 7,227 feet above sea level. It was about 17 degrees Fahrenheit. The HRV is in a large box across the back seats. I had to cut part of the top of the box in order to squeeze it in. This is Donner Summit on the way back at a rest area. Like what the wind is doing to my -do? ;-) Tomorrow is going to be a busy ducting day (I hope)! --Keith :mrgreen:

so euh, where's that HRV you supposed to pick up, eh 0_O

Glad you made it OK! Those pictures sure bring back some great memories. Now GET TO WORK on that ducting young man! ;)

No pictures yet, but man, I've been busy. I decided to install the HRV in the attic above the laundry room, instead of the laundry room near the ceiling as I had initially planned. This was partially due to the fact that the unit with top ports was back ordered and all I could get was the one with side ports. The more I thought about it, the more I concluded that an attic installation made sense in my case. Fantech indicates in the installation manual that attic installations are normally not recommended due to the potential for freezing conditions in the attic (my attic rarely, if ever, gets that cold), inconvenient access for maintenance (my wonderful attic ladder makes access a breeze 8)), and complexity of the installation (in my case it is actually easier). I borrowed my neighbor to assist me in hoisting the HRV into the attic using a rope (picture Wile E. Coyote on a cliff, ready to drop anvil onto Roadrunner ;-)). It's hanging from two separate trusses now. I knocked two >8" holes in the attic wall at the back of the house, ran about a hundred feet of flex duct (I know: not ideal, but I did upsize the duct, and this is a really powerful unit, so I think I'll be OK), installed the hoods on the exterior, provisioned an electrical outlet for the HRV, and nearly completed the ducting attachments to the HRV itself. Some complications this evening prevented me from finishing that milestone -- I had hoped to take photos of it all being done but I ran out of steam and patience. Once the ducting is finished, I think I'll raise the unit a couple of inches (so the attic ladder doesn't obstruct the HRV access door at all), wire up the electronic controller, and finish work on the silencers. I'm kind of bummed that I didn't finish it all by the end of my week and weekend off, but I did get a lot accomplished and I should have the fresh air system finished by next weekend. I must say that doing the mini split and now this HRV makes me really appreciate the skills and knowledge of HVAC engineers, technicians, and installers. --Keith :mrgreen:

Yay, progress! Congrats, Keith. Glad to see you back at work. :-)

BEHOLD! My HRV installation is complete! (I think! :roll:) Here's the HRV mounted in attic, next to attic opening. There's easy access for maintenance from telescoping attic ladder. Here are the ducts, facing south. The foreground duct is exhaust from the studio. Behind it is the supply duct that feeds the studio. Then the long lines going towards the back of the house are the main exhaust and supply lines. Those duct lines are long -- over 40 feet (unfortunately). I really had only three options and the path I took was the one of least resistance. At least the runs were mostly straight, and all the lines are upsized to 8". Rear of house. Making 12" diamater holes in stucco is challenging -- doing it 12 feet off the ground is even more so. Left is fresh air intake; right is exhast, next to bathroom exhaust. I still need to clean up and perfect the seals, paint, and put mesh back on to prevent birds from nesting in the ducts, but it's been raining a lot lately. HRV condensate lines. Left pipe connects to drain tube of unit; right pipe connects to secondary drip pan. Here's where the HRV condensate lines connect to the existing condensate lines on the house A/C system. Yes, I made sure that there's significant downward slope on all of the lines. I hope there's no objection to my tieing into the existing A/C condensate lines. (I can change this if necessary but I'd rather not! :shock:) Right side of HRV. Attic light switch changed to switch/outlet combo to provide power to HRV. Here's a good look at how the condensate drain line connects to PVC pipe. (Oh, and pay no mind to that vertical duct -- that's the vent for the clothes dryer.) Digital control for HRV. Allows humidity level to be programmed at which point unit goes into override mode. Can also command 15, 30, or 60 minutes of override. Override fan speed is selectable. At the moment it is running for a 15 minute period on high, after which it will turn off automatically. I think I'll mount this controller to the right of the mini split below the disconnect switch (kind of where it's dangling in the photo). Next on the agenda (tomorrow) is finishing up the silencers. That should complete the picture and, barring unforeseens (and barring any objections from Rod! :roll:), I hope to schedule my inspection for the coming week. Assuming I pass it, next will be insulation, and then drywall! :twisted:

Hey Keith! Just looking over your pics on the ERV installation. GREAT JOB! Since the ERV and the HRV are "couZins", I thought some of the following info may be of interest to you. I've got a Fantech ERV (due to myclimate). Basically, I think the priciple difference between the HRV and the ERV is very little. Keep in mind that I am attatching my ERV to my air handler system. I'm just curious as to the distance your return/supply lines run from your HRV to the outside. I contacted Fantech about the duct run lengths. My runs are about 21ft from the outside to my ERV with one 45 degree bend. Here is what the tech wrote back to me concerning my duct distance...

I would also recommend that you shorten the flexible supply/return ductsfrom the outside to the ERV as your current installation is veryrestrictive. Shorten (10'max) the flexible insulated duct to the outsideand use hard duct or pipe from the ERV to the air handler this will givebetter airflow. If the supply and return duct runs to/from the ERV arethe same length and number of bends balancing should not be required.However if there is a great difference in the run lengths or number ofelbows (10' - 15') the ERV should be balanced.

Here is a quote from my next question I asked him on the effect of my longer duct runs and his response...

Greetings Ian, Thank you very much for your reply. I wanted to ask you what effect having the 21ft. flexduct would have on the ERV unit and it's performance. Unfortunately, the flexduct lines are already installed, vents are installed on the outside and walls are already up and painted in all areas of my basement except my studio. To be honest, the way it is set up now is the "lesser of 2 evils". The ERV unit is within 3-5 ft of the air handler making for a short connection there. Even if I were to move the unit so the "outside" lines were within 10ft, that would make the lines that connect to the Air Handler a lot further away. Just looking at those 2 options my instincts tell me it would be better to be closer to the Air Handler, but I could be wrong. Smooth hard duct is very much less restrictive than flexible insulated. Right now shortening the duct is not something I can do, so now I'm wondering what effect that will have on: 1.) My incoming "outside" air sent to my supply duct from my Air Handler. With your current set up the airflow from the unit is approximately 150cfm. 2.) The exhausted air from my air handler return. I have no way of calculating this. 3.) The defrost part of the Unit. No effect. 4.) The "wear and tear" on the unit No effect. 5.) The longevity of the motors. No change. Hopefully you can answer these questions. I appreciate all your help.

Here is some other info you may already know, but may find useful...

Also, In the area for Heating it has 3 listings at 32 degrees F. Are these for High-Med-Low settings? Correct. In the the area for Cooling it has "Total Recovery Efficiency" at 44% and 36%. Are these efficiency numbers for the "high" & "med" settings only? Do these percentages mean that the unit will recover 44 & 36% of the cool air exhausting through the unit and return those percentages of cool air to the hot (95 degree) incoming air? If this is the case, using 1 ROOM as an example (with the supply & return going to that 1 room only) if my temp in my room is 74 degrees (which should be my return temp) and the outside temp is 95 degrees, what will the supply temp from the ERV be? Okay – 95° in and 74° exhaust temp, 95 – 74 = 21 x 44% = 9.24° to be added to the exhaust = 83.24° air from the ERV. (From the ERV ONLY, not the "mixed"air from my ERV-Air Handler-Heat Pump) Using this same example, what would the final temp coming out of my register in my room be if my Thermostat is set to 74 degrees and the outside temp is 95 degrees? (In other words I'd like an approximate temp of what I could possibly expect between my HVAC unit and what the ERV will "mix" into it)The temperature at your register should be at or very close to the set temperature depending on the losses in the duct system which I have no way of calculating. Remote Control question I have an EDF5 remote control. Can this control be hooked into my air handler/heat pump to turn them on when the humidistat control runs above my setting, or is it the Air Handler ONLY that can be turned on/off with the EDF5, OR, can NEITHER (Air Handler-Heat Pump) be turned on/off with the EDF5? Using the external furnace connections on the ERV will turn on the HVAC system blower when the EDF5 calls for the ERV to run.

Hope some of this may be helpful...

Hey Keith - Nice progress man! You're coming along nicely. Your attention to detail is obvious. What is your ETA for finishing? Keep up the great work!!

Hey Cam, great to hear from you bro. :-) That's great info you've got there. I'm prepared for the possibility of having the system balanced by a pro if necessary - the balancing damper control knob is (still) accessible. I had considered using rigid ducting but in the end I opted to go with upsized insulated flex for simplicity and cost. I got a really big HRV relative to the size of the room so I figured I could afford the "waste" of fan efficiency as it fights against the static pressures associated with the flex duct.. I hope there aren't any major problems with this implementation as I have pushed the limits on my permit lifespan - if it expires I must reapply, pay more fees, and subject my project to the rigors of updated efficiency codes that may require substantial reconstruction and costs. :roll: I have messaged Rod for him to take a looksie. I'm crossing my fingers and toes in anticipation of his response: :shock: --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, a couple of coments / questions- how is the equipment physically attached to structure to keep it from "floating" and potentially damaging a pipe or something? Exactly where does the existing condensate drain system drain to? Secondary system? I am surprised that the manufacturer does not require you to use traps on the condensate runs - If I was the building official I would probably make you install an indirect waste connection to the existing (the existing is a potential source of contamination) Otherwise - you know my feelings on flex - so I won't bother with that - and (in general) it loks like it should work well for your needs......... Rod

Hi Rod, It's not shown in the picture, but the condensate tube drops down a couple of inches and then rises where it connects to the PVC. Is that a sufficient trap? The installation instructions called for a "P trap" (a 270° bend), but there wasn't enough clearance for that due to the drip pan beneath it. (The tube would have kinked.) I can see about getting some elbow fittings to fashion the 270° bend if you think that's necessary (and I'm guessing you do! ;-)). The condensate lines all ultimately terminate outside. The main (direct) one dumps out on my home's west wall on the side of the house, near the ground, while the secondary one comes out on the same wall but above a window so as to (supposedly) get the attention of inhabitants that something is wrong. The unit is hanging on chains connected to hooks on two separate trusses. It can swing about an inch or two in all directions but it would ot cause damage to any plumbing or anything else. I'm just about done with one of the silencers now. I'll try to post pictures tomorrow. Oh, and the weather was sunny and dry today so I caulked and painted those exterior hoods. Wow, they look like they were installed at the same time the house was built. :-D --Keith :mrgreen:

Sharward, that's quite the addition to your build. Great work. Rod's question of the drainage prompts my point from our history in our house: I had to change the trap on our AC unit which is in the attic space similar to yours. The reason was because the winter freezes the water in our trap and it seems that the pvc held for a number of years, but I noticed dripping on to the ceiling below one spring. I replaced it with a flexable trap. I couldn't see from the photos whether there is a 'trap' in your condensation drip line. AND I'm not sure that you'd get the freeze in Sacramento, but it happenned to me and figured I could offer the example for folks reading this in colder climates. I, like many here have been watching and learning from your build thread. Thanks for the effort you put into documenting this process.

I passed my inspection today. :-) Well, kinda. I can't believe it, but in spite of my being extremely careful not to get my condensate lines swapped, I did exactly that. :oops: I need to do a bit of rework on the PVC pipes. It's not a big deal, but it's pretty embarrassing, because I can't tell you how many times I looked at them and told myself not to make that mistake! :roll: I was also asked to make the HRV more sturdy. It currently hangs on chains. I think I'll change that so that it's sitting on blocks inside the drip pan, similar to how my A/C system is set up. My experience with the inspector was mixed. It started with a very awkward and frustrating phone call. He couldn't understand why I'm requesting these inspections one at a time, rather than the customary "all at one time" inspection of framing, electrical, mechanical, and plumbing (N/A). I had to explain that while I probably could have and technically should have been doing that, my inexperience and some aspects of the build made these disjointed inspections either necessary or desired. It worked out very well in the end but that initial phone call really tested my patience, and I'm sure it did the same on the other side of the line. I should be excited about the outcome, but that interaction kinda messed with my psyche. :roll: OK, here are some more pictures. Last weekend I sealed and painted the hoods. I'm really pleased with how well they turned out. Here's one of the silencers, redone with the duct liner. Here's what's kind of funny. I had such a difficult time finding Linacoustic RC™ - Fiberglass Duct Liner w/ reinforced coating system in a small quantity. Well, I ended up buying "whatever I could," "settling" for a product I found at Grainger Industrial Supply: a "noise absorbing duct liner" by a company called "Industrial Noise Control." I looked it up on Industrial Noise Control's Web site It wasn't exactly a "small quantity," but at 25 linear feet, it's less than the 100' foot rolls I was being offered elsewhere... So I ordered it and picked it up a few days later. Well, imagine my susprise at the irony that this Industrial Noise Control product is actually... :lol: :lol: :lol: So, apparently Industrial Noise Control doesn't actually make this stuff! :lol: :lol: :lol: They just put Johns Manville's product in a cardboard box with their name on it! :lol: :lol: :lol: Sheesh -- if they had just been honest about that on their Web site and thus in Grainger's online catalog, I'd have bought it months ago! :x I probably paid too much for it, but oh well! :? I have a lot left over, so when my build is complete, assuming I don't need the extra for outer leaf silencers (which I'm trying to get away with not building them if I don't have to), I'll probably sell it off here on the forum. This weekend I'll try to fix the PVC and see if I can get the HRV more sturdily mounted. I also think I've come up with a method of mounting my outlet and switch boxes in such a way that will accommodate my multiple layers of drywall. (I'm doing 3 layers of 5/8", plus 1/2" OSB in some areas.) Normal boxes and attachment methods don't work for such thick wall surfaces. In short I'll be attaching some 2x4 blocks between the studs, rotated so that they're 3.5" high and set back a little from the face of the studs, then I'll screw the boxes to the board through holes in the backs of the boxes. It will be kind of a pain to do, but after spending a long time at a wholesale electrical supply today, I think it's the path of least resistance. It will make more sense when I have some pictures to show you. --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, You lost me on your silencer design. I can't see any baffles in the box? Are they not shown in the picture, are you adding them after or your not planning on using baffles inside the box? I'm designing my silencer boxes based on Rod's Diagram: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=16137 Just wondering. Marc

There's one baffle in each box. It's a 2x6 with duct liner on each side. There's about 3" of clearance above it, which is difficult to see in the picture. The air enters the box at one and towards the bottom, then it has to go above the 2x6 and then back down again through the metal box that will hold the register. I would have liked to have done more but I would have had to have done 3 baffles and I don't think they'd be far enough apart to be effective.

hey keith, quick question; did you use an adhesive between the sheet metal and duct liner? i see some mechanical fasteners too. thanks

Actually, the duct liner doesn't attach to sheet metal. It attaches to OSB. I just used 1" self-tapping wood screws with fender washers.

Hmmmm, May seem like a silly question but were you able to find a register box with a greater then 3/4" flange? Doesn't look like it, couple layers of drywall will be thicker than 3/4". So when the register itself goes up your just securing it to the drywall and any wood you might catch? Marc