FINISHED IN 2020! Sharward's Partial Garage Conversion

Boring..Wherea re your buddies to chide you as you work...

Somehow, whenever the manual labor begins, they're nowhere to be found! :lol: Nawww, but seriously... I'm not afraid to ask for help when I need it -- but I'm trying to savor those "favor cards" for when I really need it! :mrgreen:

I wanted to reiterate my thoughts from a few posts back about a possible change of outer leaf ceiling plan. Thoughts, anyone? :roll:

Interesting that you brought this up, I have been agonizing over this same dilemma. I think this pic will show the strength of a 2x4. As this KD Him-fer 2x4 lifted this 900 pound beam to the rafters. It did bow this 2x4. The only reason I would use 2x6s in a studio ceiling is they are much more rigid than a 2x4. With your humidity lvls and bug problems, I’m guessing, you might want that bit more life span. If I was doing this in Tuscon, or LA I would use steel. Probably, disreguard as you were speaking of the resiliant channel, removing that is kind of your choice, but disimiliar materials is just that.

Looks good, making progress thats for sure but it looks like there is quite a bit left :shock: Do you think completely isolating the base will add a significant amount of isolation that its worth all that effort? Seems overkill, but it will def be isolated :wink: BTW, i was looking at your avatar and is that a Gretsch Drums Catalina Birch 5-Piece Fusion Drum Set... with a Pearl kick head? Right now i have a "crappy" if you will, Ludwig Accent 5 piece, its oversized everything and has too much power for my studio environment. I got the Ludwig for free from a buddy so it works for now but will eventually get a more suited kit when I start making money :D I was looking at the Gretsch Catalina 5 piece and if that is what you use let me know how ya like it :) Fill

Keith, I apologize if I'm not completely accurate here but I want to make sure of something. In your proposed "green glue alternative ceiling plan", were you proposing to use only your existing ceiling in conjunction with your new inner wall frames? If so, would the green glue also make up for flanking because of hard contact with existing ceiling and newly built separate wall frames, or am I not understanding correctly what you are proposing?

Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my question about my ceiling plan revision proposal! 8) I can see that I've confused y'all, so I've sketched what I'm talking about. Below you'll see what I have currently, what I originally planned to do, and what I am proposing to do with Green Glue in the recipe. I'm also reattaching an attic view of the existing ceiling -- you can see the trusses, the hat channel, and the top of the single layer of gypsum wallboard that's currently in place. Fred'e, Sacramento is an extremely dry climate... No humidity issues here. Also, although the bottom chord of the trusses are 2x4s, they are in fact much stronger than ordinary 2x4s becaue they are part of an overall truss assembly that not only support the ceiling but also a heavy tile roof. Unfortunately, I can't use ordinary span tables or a span calculator to determine how much weight they will hold -- they are specially engineered. My "gut" tells me I can add one extra layer without any trouble... Especially since the span is only going to be 10 feet, whereas the span is 20 feet throughout most of my garage. Also, don't confuse the hat channel my builder used with true resilient channel -- they're very different. Pennywizz6, yes, it may be overkill, but seeing as the isolated slab is a compromise from the "ultimate" floating slab originally considered, I don't want to cut any corners on this phase and take a chance of having structure-borne flanking. Happy Wife = Happy Life! 8) Also, the drum kit isn't mine -- it's the property of Skip's Music, the sponsor of the program in which I participated. Here's a picture of my drum kit. Feel free to PM me for specifics if you wish. 8) cyeazel, you weren't understanding correctly because you couldn't see into my brain. ;-) Hopefully the illustration clears things up. 8) Feedback appreciated -- especially now that I have an illustration that will help in my conveying the idea! --Keith :mrgreen:

Keith, As you know I'm no expert but don't all three of your proposed ceilings represent 3 leaves? You've got the new ceiling in your inner room, the ceiling attached to the hat channel (current ceiling), and the roof of your house? Or does the large empty space between your existing ceiling and the roof diminish the 3rd leaf effect? Just as an idea to kick around, what if you built a VERTICAL wall up in the "attic" area that separated "your attic" from the rest of the house. Then you beefed up the wall that divides the two spaces (garage from the rest of the house) and the space between the rafters under the current roof. You would then remove the current ceiling and build your new one that sits on your inner leaf walls. This would get you back to two leaves, you would have a HUGE air gap between the two walls (new ceiling to old underside of roof)/ new vertical wall) which when you're done, if I understand the physics, would give you MORE isolation than what you've proposed. Just me 2 cents worth. len

Hey Len, Ding-ding-ding! You are correct that it is a three leaf system... Kind of. As you said, the large amount of space inside the attic, in addition to the fact that it's well ventilated, diminishes thie third leaf effect. This is something Steve and I discussed at some length during our first marathon telephone consultation. My situation is quite different from Mike Klooster's... He's planning to make his roof the outer leaf. Since noise levels within the attic will be (hopefully) very good even when the studio is cranked up to 11, there's no need to build any kind of "container" within the attic to keep the noise from leaking into other rooms via the attic (thank goodness -- building such a thing would be horrifyingly difficult!). Here's a great thread on the (not always so) dreaded third leaf:

Avoid triple leaf... why??

At this point I'm essentially just comparing my "original" plan to my "proposed" plan to see how close they may be in terms of isolation. If they're very close, then I'd just as soon save the time, money, and materials and/or invest a fraction of the amount of time/money/materials on the inner leaf to make up for whatever deficit I might be introducing. 8)

sharward wrote:

If they're very close, then I'd just as soon save the time, money, and materials and/or invest a fraction of the amount of time/money/materials on the inner leaf to make up for whatever deficit I might be introducing.

As you know, the cheapest, fastest and least painful way to accomplish isolation is just buy your family and close neighbors really nice headphones for Christmas. :-) len

I'll need a lot of them to go around, including the code enforcement officers just in case a neighbor forgets to put them on at the appropriate times! :lol:

Nah. Just buy enough for the code enforcement officers so they can't hear the phone ring. :twisted:

My tried and true method is fire a warning shot to the head, then ask what they want... :twisted: Seriously; you may want to ask Brian about this (after all, he IS Mr. GG :mrgreen: But I would think that placing the GG layer between your last two layers on the INSIDE leaf might do more good, considering it's a CLD system and there would arguably be more "flex" at the inner layer - Keep in mind that I'm an idiot on GG as of yet, but I'd ask Brian about this, see what his take is... Steve

Actually, I forgot to mention that I was considering Green Glue on the inside leaf as well... Maybe not at 100% dosage though... So it's not necessarily an either/or thing. I PM'd Brian... We'll see! Fortunately, time is on my side -- I don't need to make this decision right away. But it is something I'd like to settle soon. :)

Poof! -- another week just went by... And so did a weekend of studio construction! :twisted: First of all, for those who haven't followed my Green Glue thread on StudioTips, I'm pleased to report that it looks as though I'll be changing my outer leaf ceiling plan for the easier/cheaper! 8) I may have to submit an amendment of my plans to the building department, but that's a small price to pay for the massive amount of time, money, and effort I'll be saving -- effort, I should add, that I was quite intimidated about taking on! :shock: 8) OK, so now an update on what I've been up to in the garage. Digging, digging, and more digging! I swear, I feel like I am building a Woodlock bomb shelter! :lol: (For the record, I'm not -- his project is way more "over the top" than mine will ever be! Although I wouldn't mind having "honorable mention" in the contest! ;-) ) Basically, I think I'm done excavating now. What a drag! I have spent this weekend digging the footings, which was literally "on all fours" along the south and east walls using a hand trowel. Why not a full-sized shovel? Well, mostly because I had to get in and around the "nooks and crannies" of the sloppy foundation. :evil: Overall I have dug down:

• About 24-26 inches deep along the 8 foot long west wall adjacent to the laundry room
• About 16-18" deep along the 10 foot south wall adjacent to my "office" (small bedroom) and along the east wall adjacent to the outside world
• About 12-14" deep along the area of the cut slab, plus I "gouged" a couple of inches out from under the cut slab so that the "footprint" of the bottom of the new concrete will be wider along the cuts.

Why all the varying depths? It wasn't my ideal plan... :roll: ...But I felt I had to go the entire depth along the laundry room wall so that I could hammer off the excess concrete all the way down, since I can't afford to lose any square footage along that wall. For the south and east walls, I figured I will need to chisel off at least some of the excess -- not as much as the west wall though, as I want to maintain wider air gaps between leaves there. And the shallowest footings along the cuts account for what I believe will be walls that won't be as heavy as I once thought. There will still be over 12" of concrete with two sets of rebar under those walls, so I would think that should be more than fine. Also, I was :shock: shocked :shock: to see how much water is seeping into the trenches I have dug! :!: My deepest ones were getting up to 6 inches of water! :!: I'm not sure if it's coming up from the ground or coming through the foundation from a pool underneath the house! It has rained quite a bit over the past week... :roll: Scary!! Next up -- forms! :shock: I'll be studying some more in this area. I have some ideas (too complicated and boring to post) and I hope to accomplish a lot in this area next weekend. Edit: I just noticed that this thread has reached >25,000 views! :twisted:

Great work, Keith. It's gitten there. Look at it this way: After moving all that dirt and chipping away at all that concrete, framing and drywalling is going to be a (relative) snap! :-) I too have been busy building instead of documenting but I'll have pictures soon (1st layer almost done). len

Boy that is a lot of water. I think you should really try to find where it is coming from. I took a look at your floor design and to me it looks like you will have a problem. The rigid insulation will more than likely wick up the water and place alot of moisture between you layers. I think it would be a good idea to stop this now than be surprised later.

I hear you... :roll: ...I have talked to several people (neighbors, coworkers) who are in agreement with me that the water is coming from the ground. I'm considering backfilling the areas that have been "overexcavated" so that the water level is below the soil, as it was before I started. Bear in mind that there will be a moisture barrier placed over the entire area, above the subbase once it goes in, including the trenches... So even if I don't backfill, the water won't be able to wick up... Not even into the insulation around the perimeter. I appreciate your watching my back on this issue! 8)

Great news! I rented a heavier duty model (I think it was 25 or 30 pound, vs. the 15 pound model I used last time), and the shaft was larger so I could use a 3" chisel bit. It worked great -- I did about 30 linear feet, including a corner, in about six hours! 8) Granted, it's not as precise as the west wall that I did (which needed to be more precise), but it's good enough. :) So, I'm done chiseling away the crappy excess concrete from the foundation! :mrgreen: I'm really glad to have this part done. This was a royal pain in the neck. I mean that both figuratively and literally -- my neck is really bothering me right now! :roll: Must have been all that vibration -- it was definitely more brutal on my body. :evil: Next comes forms, sub base, and rebar! :D Time to study some more... :roll: Holy crap! I sure hope I know what I'm doing! :shock: Ahhhh, who am I kidding? Of course I don't know what I'm doing! :lol: :lol: :lol:' Here's a candid shot of me chipping away, plus a couple of lousy pictures of the chippage all gone. Sorry about the poor quality pics -- when it's dark outside, there's a really strange reflection effect... :roll:

Now you're cookin' with gas!!! Great work. It looks like your water is gone too. Did you do that or did it just go away by itself? len

Those pictures are of the east wall. The water is in the ditch along the west wall, which is about a foot deeper than the east and south. I'm considering backfilling the west wall so that it's close to even with the east and south. 8) Thanks for the cheers! :)

I just ordered a DVD titled "How-To Build a Monolithic Concrete Slab Foundation"... http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/dirtcheapbuilderbooks_1874_1073741.jpg ...from The Dirt Cheap Builder... http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/dirtcheapbuilderbooks_1873_3210643.jpg It ships out of Northern California, so I should get it soon. 8) Note that I'm not planning on doing all of the slab work myself... But I think it's good for me to educate myself thoroughly on the process so that I can properly interview contractors and effectively supervise the pour and finishing. Also, in the event that I do have to "bite the bullet" and consider doing the pour myself... :shock: ...then at least I'll have a clue! :?

I've been busy contemplating how to set the concrete forms. I'm essentially torn between two schools of thought, specifically along the existing foundations (where I chipped away the excess concrete):

1. Set the forms in a rather conventional way, using stakes and forms that are intended to be removed after the concrete has cured, then fill the gap with some kind of closed cell foam (perhaps in liquid form?) after the forms have been pulled; ...or...
2. Install perimeter isolation boards first that will also act as forms for the pour, with the intent of leaving them in place after the concrete has cured.

#2 seems like it would be easier, less expensive, and "tighter" along those existing foundations. However, I'm concerned about damage occurring to the perimeter boards during the pour or screeding process that could jeopardize the isolation properties of the slab, since those boards will obviously not be nearly as strong as conventional wooden forms. Bear in mind that this "debate" only applies to the 40-or-so linear feet where the new slab will be bumped against the existing concrete foundation (east, south, and southwest walls). It does not apply to the L-shaped area that will ultimately join with the existing garage slab... So you needn't worry about the isolation boards breaking loose and having concrete blowing out and spewing out of control. Since there is more room along the L-shaped area, I do intend to do conventional wooden forms there, then adding the perimeter board to the slab after the forms are removed. I'm also considering using Roxul DrainBoard, assuming I can get my hands on it. Here's the spec sheet. It's a water-repellant mineral wool insulation board, designed for use below grade on the exterior of a foundation wall. It comes standard in 1" thickness (or maybe 2.5", but that's special order). I might consider using two sheets glued together to make 2" thickness. Here's an illustration to hopefully make option #2 more clear. Please share your thoughts -- especially if you have concrete experience! 8) Thanks... :mrgreen:

Good Morning, Keith! While the only concrete experience I have involves a jackhammer and a trip to the ER, I do have some thoughts. First off, on the Roxul product, I read the data sheet and appears that you don't want to have the product touching the foundation (see the picture on page 2) so I would think that you'd need at least a plastic sheet next to your current foundation, then the Roxul, then ANOTHER plastic sheet should be on the new pour side. Even before reading the data sheet, I wondered what would be the effect (especially considering the amount of water that is in your soil), of having a wet blanket of rock wool laying against your current foundation. Next, what is the stiffness of the product? Is there any chance of flanking between foundations through the Roxul (or anything else you put there for that matter. Have you thought about (I'm sure you have) putting a standard board form and then just removing it and leaving an air gap between the two foundations? I would be concerned about the vertical rebar in your picture. You'll have to make very sure that it doesn't rest on the concrete "rash" that may be lower than you chipped off. If this is the method you go with, you might consider putting the rebar between the two layers (i.e., it holds the small piece tight against the foundation you could use spray adhesive or something to hold the bigger piece up against the small one during the pour. This would allow you to pound the rebar an inch or so below the top of the Roxul which would prevent the top of the rebar from puncturing the vapor barrier. I don't see any drainage at the bottom of the Roxul board. If the water (perhaps from an overflowing washing machine?) hasn't got anywhere to go, I think it's just going to sit there soaking the material. That may be ok but again, with no plastic barrier on the current foundation/slab side, that can't be good. If you are only using the rebar to hold in the board, I'm not sure it's even worth it. Wouldn't the weight of the new concrete pour hold it just fine? I wish I could speak from experience on this but just looking at it logically (which I know doesn't always apply to things accoustic), you've got my thoughts. Cheers! len

Thanks Len. Good food for thought. I've clearly got some more thinking to do. I guess I hadn't really seriously considered just leaving the gap empty. That may not pass code, though (think: termites).