Basement Two Room Studio

"Man, this forum sure keeps you hoppin'" - ever watch a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs??!? OK, I think we're on the same page now - you will be "interleaving" your new joists; got it... Now, if I can just figger out what to DO with it... Steve

Checked out the pic and threads, and Rod was also concerned with one of my reservations - the lack of bridging for the upper floor framing. How much of a gap were you intending between the tops of the NEW ceiling joists and the bottom of your (upper) sub floor? Because you're gonna want to figure out a bridging scheme before you get much further, unless you're into "death metal", or in this case, "death joists"... Steve

Steve, I've learned a ton from Rod's posts here and on other forums. I agree that not having bridging is a very bad idea. I've been known to bust out a Slayer riff on occasion, but I really suck when a 2 story house falls on me. Anyway, I took out the bridging shown in the previous pics and replaced it with model #MB16 from USP connectors. They are adjustable length which I figured I'd need since I added the new drywall and cleats. They seem at least as strong and probably more rigid than the old bridging. My plan is to run the new joists just under the new bridging. This will give me roughly the same finished ceiling height as using RSIC clips + hat channel. Here's a picture:

If it's ok I'd like to get back to the discussion about the half walls. I am mainly concerned about isolation from the live room and the upstairs in the area that includes the half walls. I'm not that concerned about neighbors. I plan to leave the existing window as is, perhaps hanging an absorber over it. Considering I'll be leaving the window, is it pointless to frame new walls parallel to the half walls? If I build the parallel walls there will be a window box in the new south wall in order to maintain access to the existing window. I'm willing to do it, but maybe there's no point because there will be so much leakage out the window. The other option is to just resiliently mount drywall on the half walls and not framing new walls. I hope this makes sense. Thanks a million again.

PhiloBeddoe, Sorry, I just caught your post about the HVAC question. Still working on my place but I'm real close, I did do a listen to check out my HVAC duck work, they worked out really great. I have good air flow with no wooosh and very minimal sound leakage. I have to really crank it to hear anything through my main house return, and I really think it's something that I missed until it was too late. My main return enclosure is right above my control room and I think the insulation rap-around is touching my ceiling :roll: don't know how I missed it but I'm pretty sure I did. Course if I stress over what little bit of leakage I have at the level of volume I was listening I'd be deaf long before it ever mattered. It looks like you don't have a lot of room between your joist, but the nice thing about the load boxes is the shape is not that critical. All you want is something to slow the air down and catch the sound coming back. With the loss in air movement you may want to put an extra supply line in, the air doesn't move as fast so the room doesn't fill up as fast either. If you get a HVAC tech to do your work good luck, most of them don't know jack about what you're doing and they charge by the second. Though it's not a bad idea to get someone to figure how much air suppy you need for your rooms. I hope this helps and good luck on your build, remember check everthing three times so you don't miss anything, it's easy to do. Arthur

Got a pic (or two) of the window WITHOUT the curtain in the way? And, if possible, the thickness and type of the glass? You might be able to double up like the walls, and keep the light/view source... Steve

Here's some pictures of the window. The glass is double pane, but I think that's about all I can tell you. Sorry, I don't know much about windows. My goal is to have some isolation from the upstairs, not so much worried about the neighbors for this room. I am also trying to maintain some appearance of residential normalcy (hence the rectangular rooms) and a double window would be a little wierd, although not out of the question because I could simply remove it later. I guess my question is whether I should even bother with framing a second wall if I have a big hole in it for the window box. Also, if I do build a second wall should I remove the existing drywall on the half wall? Thanks again, Marc

OK, do you mean that the glass on the MOVABLE part of the window (the crank-in part that's shown open in the upper pic) is double pane, or are you referring to the inner, removable storm insert? Also, are you asking about the UPPER half of the wall? I'm assuming that's what you mean, since I thought the lower half was all concrete block (NOT filled, right?) Steve

Sorry, I should have explained more about the window. The movable part of the window contains double pane glass. The inner insert is merely a removable screen (zero STC). Yes, I am asking about the upper part of the wall. Marc

OK, in that case your question,"Also, if I do build a second wall should I remove the existing drywall on the half wall?" - yes; if you cut it carefully, you could beef up the outer leaf by doing a couple of layers of wallboard up against the outer leaf, between the studs. If you remove the inner pane, and use heavy glass for the new window, you can minimise the 3-leaf effect somewhat; the more air gap between the two, the better... Steve

Steve, I just realized I didn't answer your previous question about the concrete on the lower half of the wall. It is poured solid concrete, NOT block. I assume this is better, right? OK, I will remove the drywall from the top half of the wall. I think for now I'm not going to insall a new window and just hang an absorber over the opening. If the existing window becomes a big problem I'll add a window to the inner wall. I am just struggling with whether to build the inner walls because they eat up floor space. I've already given the carpenter instructions to build them, but he's not actually starting for a few weeks. Marc

Whether you build inner walls or not would depend on just how much isolation you need from that wall; the upper half will be the weak link, concrete isn't bad as a single leaf wall unless you want heavy isolation, in which case you need a gap and a second leaf for sure. If you have any doubts about the upper, non-concrete parts doing the job, you should plan on removing the inner cladding and making that upper half-wall your OUTER leaf with built up mass between studs, and doing the inner leaf all along the wall... Steve

Construction is now underway so I thought I'd post some pictures. Everything is going fine except $$$, which I'm trying my best to ignore. This first set of pics is the last of the prep work. Pic#1)Here's the first layer of Roxul between the existing ceiling joists in the live room. This needed to go up before the new ceiling was framed. Pic#2)Per Steve's suggestion, I removed the drywall facing on the half wall and inserted drywall between the studs. I used one layer of 5/8" and one layer of 1/2", which I reused from what I removed. Pic#3)Here's the last shot pre-framing

More pics. Pic#1) Control room framing showing closet, new joists, and new wall 1" from existing concrete foundation wall. Pic#2) Double studded wall (one 2x4 wall and one 2x6 wall) between live and control room. I was careful to instruct the electrician not to use back to back outlets. Note the independent conduit runs in each wall. Pic #3) New ceiling joists in live room.

More Pics. Pic#1) Looking into the Live Room from the West. Double wall between open area (hopefully a bathroom in the future) and live room. Pic#2) Double wall between live room and control room again. Pic#3) Control room framing w/soffit around hvac duct.

Looking good so far; how many layers of wallboard will go on the HVAC soffit? Not sure about those flat 2x's supporting more than two layers, even at that short span. Also, soffit looks to be hard coupled to both the wall and ceiling frame; will RC be used to mount wallboard? If not, there's a possible flanking path - duct noise into frame into wallboard. Also, will the ducts get insulation before wallboard goes on? That will help keep noise under control too... Steve

I plan to put RC and two layers of 5/8" in the entire room, including the soffit. I have some duct insulation given to me by a friend, but I was planning to use just Roxul AFB around the duct. I'll probably use the free duct insulation in the rest of the non-studio basement.

Good plan... Steve

Unfortunately I've been traveling a bit so things haven't been progressing continuously but are progressing. The HVAC is finished and I have a bunch of PVC run between the rooms for snakes and other cables. An electrical question: My electrical boxes are mounted so the front is flush with the front of the stud. Usually one would add a mud ring of appropriate depth to extend the box to be flush with the finished drywall. However, what about when you have RC (1/2") + two layers of 5/8" drywall = 1 3/4" depth from finished drywall to stud? I haven't been able to find a mud ring larger than 1 1/4". It seems like the only option is to use a 1 1/2" box extender + a 1/4" mud ring. However, with this solution you'd have to make a 4" square hole in the drywall for a double fixture. I could put two duplex receptacles in each box but I don't really need them and would prefer something more elegant for a single fixture. Considering the ubiquity of RC + 2 layers of 5/8" drywall in this business, I must be missing something simple. Ideas? I hope this makes sense. Many thanks

First, with double framed walls you do NOT want to use RC; it's a waste of time/effort/money, for which you get a probable WORSENING of low frequency performance. Second, on any walls that are SINGLE framed that will actually benefit from using RC, it's best to use "old work" or "cut-in" boxes, that mount directly to the drywall with "ears" - this keeps the box floated along with the drywall (suspended on the RC) - your metal conduit will get damped by insulation so shouldn't "ring", but it's still a good idea to stuff insulation into the ends after all wires are in place. Where you're using double framed walls, any method you can find locally to get them even is the way to go; no further isolation is necessary because of the separate frames. However, where possible you should use "putty packs" behind all boxes - good acoustic seal, and they're intumescent for fire control... Steve

Steve, Thanks for the reply. My plan was to not use RC in the live room because it has floating walls and ceiling. However, the control room has all the top plates nailed directly to the existing ceiling joists that support the first floor of the house. One of the control room top plates connects to a steel beam, which rings if you pound on the framing under it because they are directly connected. The new drywall will be mounted to the existing ceiling joists in the control room. I would LOVE to not use RC in the control room if possible. However, I thought it was necessary since the framing is not floating in this room. Please let me know if you think otherwise. I have a drywall contractor coming on Monday to bid on it, so it would be nice to know about the RC by then. I'm still contemplating doing the drywall myself because I'm not sure I can be confident it will be done correctly. Not having RC would simplify things. Maybe RC on ceiling only? I see your point about the work boxes, that's a good idea. I found out yesterday that SPI (the often cited distributer of OC 703) also sells putty packs for $3.00 each so I'll be sure to pick some up. Thanks again, Marc

With any walls where the frame is hard connected to structure, you'll need resilient mounts. For the wall with the steel beam, maybe even RSIC clips and hat channel; you get a slightly deeper cavity, harder to mess it up (but not impossible) - for these walls a complete, snug fill with unfaced standard density fiberglass batts would probably work as good as anything - although using the higher density safe n sound (2.5 PCF) may give better damping of studs and drywall, and won't HURT anything - I'd probably go that way for the chance of killing more of the ringing. Speaking of which, if you have some fairly heavy rubber (like 1/4" strips) you might try contact cementing some strips to that steel beam's vertical web, and re-testing for the ring - at the least, it should be insulated for better damping. Ceiling - again, if these are common joists you'll need resilient mounts... Steve

Steve, Thanks for the reply. OK, I'm going ahead with the resilient mounting of the drywall. Unfortunately, yet another drywall guy came to bid and said "you mean hat channel?" when I told him about resilient channel. I have the sinking feeling that I'm going to have to do this myself and I have no drywall experience. Thanks to the great info on this site, I think I at least have a basic idea of what to do. I'm thinking about hanging it and hiring someone to apply the final finish coat. I don't think the beam ringing warrants too much special treatment as it's pretty faint, I was just trying to make a point about the existing structure being tied into. I'm using the Roxul AFB (3pcf) everywhere though. FYE, I just finished pulling stage type snakes (box on one end fan out on other, 12 XLR, 4 send) through runs of ~30 feet of 3" PVC with 270 degree+ worth of bends. Even with bunches of wire pulling lubricant and preparation, this was a nightmare. I had to cut one of the pipes to unstick one of the snakes. I think if I had to do it again I'd go through the trouble of soldering or ditch the idea of running them in pipes. My concept was to run them in pipes so they could one day be pulled out, but they're stuck in there now. 3" was the largest I could work with because anything larger and it wouldn't fit in a stud cavity. Thankfully a friend warned me that I should pull the cables before the drywall went up. I was reluctant to do it, but man I'm glad I did. Marc

Print out this page http://www.dietrichindustries.com/bigdp ... sories.htm and show it to ANY drywall guy you use; make sure he understands that this stuff is supposed to be a SPRING - you want either RC Deluxe, or RC-2 Double leg RESILIENT channel. Your guy very likely was asking about what Dietrich calls FURRING channel, shown lower on that page. Do NOT, repeat NOT, let ANYONE tell you this is OK. Point out on the pic of RC-2, that those funny looking marks on the SIDES of the channel are SLOTS, put there to PURPOSELY WEAKEN the sidewall; this is where the RESILIENCE comes from, and is VITAL. (BTW, the "yelling" was for the benefit of whoever you show this to, not you - ) Personally, I think Dietrich is too conservative in their recommendations to use the RC-2 - I've seen no problems using the RC Deluxe, even on ceilings, with 2 layers of 5/8. The RC-2 is a bit stiffer, and is 'WAY TOO EASILY CONFUSED with HAT channel by tradesmen. More things to print for your drywall guy - http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#22169 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20003 If you decide to have this done, don't walk away and let your crafts people make ANY decisions without you; if you stay there, you will know how they did it and learn some of their methods; and more importantly, THEY won't be as likely to "slip something by you" that will hurt your isolation, just because "that's the way it's done" - education is your friend here, both for YOU and for your BUILDER. HTH... Steve

Funny, that's exactly what I gave him - the Dietrich catalog page. I circled the RC deluxe and explained to him about the slots in the RC-2. I got this guy's name from a large drywall supply place that carries the Dietrich RC. I asked the person if he knew anyone who knew how to use the RC and he sent me to this guy, who of course had no clue. I've read the horror story about the guy using the hat channel instead of RC, so I think I'll know the right thing when I see it. Thanks again and I'll keep everyone updated.