Soundproofing / wall thickness

Hello, I need to soundproof retail space for music production. There will likely be at least one neighbor on an Adjoining wall. Trying to decide how large a space to rent, So I need to know about how much floor space I will lose to soundproofing, i.e. how thick the inner walls and any air space need to be For effective soundproofing. Any information in this regard would be appreciated. Thanks, audion

Welcome to the forum audion!

So I need to know about how much floor space I will lose to soundproofing, i.e. how thick the inner walls and any air space need to be For effective soundproofing.

That is a very hard question to answer definitively. Pretty much the first thing asked and determined when building a studio space is "How much isolation do you need?" This is hands down the most important factor. A few days ago my buddy had me over to help him figure out what he needed to do for a little drum room to make it sound good and look cool. After taking some SPL measurements outside while he was playing, we quickly determined that he was louder than the city bylaw would allow and that took his project from a small cheap project to a large expensive one since he needed much higher levels of isolation than he initially thought. I'm assuming that since your studio is in a commercial building with other businesses sharing the building, you need high levels of isolation. To achieve these levels of transmission loss, you will need to build any rooms that have either loud sound produced in them, require critical listening (such as your control room or editing suite), OR are tracking rooms where more quiet sources will be recorded (such as vocals, acoustic guitar, etc), you need to construct these rooms as MSM systems. This means a room in a room design. MSM systems require two walls with a gap between them (the gap is filled with appropriate insulation). In a lot of commercial spaces, the one wall is often concrete! Well, one of the 4 outer leaf walls anyway! To determine how much floor space this will take up, you can figure out the gap between the walls you need as well as how many layers of OSB/drywall you need to achieve your required transmission loss. I threw together this excel spreadsheet to speed up that process: TL Calculator

Trying to decide how large a space to rent

Floor plan layout. This is probably more important than how much space your inner leaf walls are going to eat up. Sound locks, hallways, lounge, bathrooms, machine rooms, storage rooms, ISO booths, live room, control room, and utility room. Also, there probably need to be some square footage eaten up for HVAC duct work and/or silencers. How these all work together to make a cohesive space is going to be your major concern. And realistically, I think budget is going to be EVERYTHING. How much can you afford per month for lease? How much do you have to spend on design (unless you're going to do it all yourself by reading the forum and some books and asking questions)? How much do you have to spend on materials and labour and machinery? What is your time frame? I'd say to try and get a space with a super high ceiling. Not only is it desirable for live room acoustics, it's pretty much necessary for HVAC duct work and silencers. Also, it allows for more bass trapping in your control room ceiling and will allow you to design your control room could with ease unlike us home studio folk who have pretty limited ceiling heights to work with! You didn't really go into much detail about your needs. Is this going to be a single room control room type production suite where you mix purely electronic sounds? Or is this a full scale multi-room recording studio? Or something in between? I hope I answered your questions. Again, it is pretty hard without more detail from you. I look forward to your response :wink: Greg

Hello, Thank you for your nice response. Probably just a multipurpose room, in a retail space. I would love a high ceiling. Its for mixing and tracking, so probably need pretty substantial soundproofing to avoid complaints. Just looking to find out about how far from the existing perimeter walls the inner wall would need to be, so that I can see how much floor space would be taken up. Thanks again for your reply. audion

Probably just a multipurpose room. Its for mixing and tracking,

That's going to be a problem! The acoustic response that a room absolutely MUST have to be good for mixing, is also terrible for tracking. For a control room (mixing room), the acoustic response must be totally neutral, flat, and "transparent" (here's an example: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 ), because that is what your ears and brain need in order to be able to mix correctly. But that's lousy for tracking! Acoustic instruments need a "brighter" room, with more "life" and "air" and "character", or the recording just sounds dull and uninteresting. So, you might think: "Well, then, I'll just do something in between! I'll treat it so it is part way between what a mixing room needs, and what a live room needs." That sounds logical, but in reality what you would get is a room that is lousy for BOTH! It would be terrible for mixing, and it wont be any good for tracking either. If you want to have a room that is good for both, then you will need to design special "variable acoustic" devices that can be hinged, slid, rotated, swung, flipped, opened, closed, or otherwise modified in some manner that changes the acoustic response of the room as needed. That's the real solution, but not so easy to do... Even better is to have separate tracking and mixing rooms, each with it's own specific purpose, and correct, specific acoustics response tailored exactly for each room. (here's another example: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368 )

so probably need pretty substantial soundproofing to avoid complaints.

How much is "substantial"? That's a subjective word, not an objective measurement. There are equations and tables an charts and graphs that you can use to decide on isolation materials and techniques, but you need to know how much isolation you need, in measurable real-world objective numbers, in order to use those. If not, then you are just guessing. So, the very first thing you need to do, is to define a number: "How many decibels of isolation you need". You do that by measuring two things, using a proper hand-held sound level meter. First you measure how loud you are in a typical recording session, then you measure how quiet you have to be outside to avoid annoying the neighbors. Subtract one from the other, and that difference is how much isolation you need. Simple.

Just looking to find out about how far from the existing perimeter walls the inner wall would need to be, so that I can see how much floor space would be taken up.

It is impossible to know that until you know how much isolation you need! Until you have that number ("how many decibels of isolation you need"), it is not possible to say how much space your isolation system will take up. Asking how thick that wall will be is sort of like somebody saying: "I want to buy a truck to transport rocks: how big does the truck have to be?". That, too, is impossible to answer until they say how heavy the load will be. There's a huge difference between a truck that can transport 100 kg of rocks, and one that can transport 100 tons of rocks. And in exactly the same way (same scale too) there's a huge difference between a wall that isolates 40 dB and one that isolates 70 dB. I say this is the "same scale", because just as 100 tons is a thousand times greater than 100 kg, so to 70 dB isolation is a thousand times greater than 40 dB of isolation. Basically, do you need this:? Or do you need this:? Both are dump trucks, both can carry rocks, and both do the job they were designed for, except that one is designed to carry a load one thousand times heavier than the other. Until you define your load, you won't know which one to buy! Likewise with your studio: until you define the isolation "load" that you need, you won't know how to build it. This is what Greg was pointing out to you, with the story of the studio for his friend. Until they actually measured the levels, his friend had no idea what type of construction or what materials he would need. Hopefully that helps you understand that there's a very large difference in designing walls for different levels of isolation, and why it is so important to define your isolation requirement correctly. You are asking questions that cannot be answered until you provide the data that is needed to answer them. that's why Greg didn't give you an answer to your question: nobody can answer it, until you first define the question in terms that can be answered. - Stuart -

Hello, If people could please stop posting saying that what I am trying to do is "a problem", I would very much appreciate it. I am not situated to do all the stuff that is being described at the moment. But I need to get my gear into a space and out of storage so that I can make some use of it. Its very frustrating and depressing to hear people go on and on about how what I am trying to do "won't work". I am an experienced musician / producer / composer / engineer. I have been doing it for decades and have done work in many large, prestigious facilities, so it is not that I do not like beautiful, elaborately designed rooms. I just can't do that right now. I have also done a lot of really great sounding stuff in what you all would probably consider "unacceptable" spaces. I just need to soundproof a place to begin with. Best I can do right now. I will probably build a barn on my property later and fix it up nice, but for now ............. When I say substantial soundproofing, I mean I need soundproof the perimeter of the room, to not be a nuisance to the neighbors, while mixing, and tracking. Drums, bass, guitars, keyboards, vocals and the like. And I need to not be bothered by road noise, or that type of thing from outside. Surely some of you must know about how loud a typical tracking session is. That would probably be the loudest thing happening. Can't somebody just give me at least a rough idea of about how thick the soundproofing walls / space need to be? If not, I guess I will have to ask somewhere else. Is there another forum where my question would be better posted? Maybe someone knows of a consultant in my area? Thank you very much for understanding. I would be grateful for any help with this. audion

We are not trying to bum you out or say that what you're trying to do is "a problem". We are saying that we don't want you to waste time or money building your space in a manner that isn't suitable for your situation. "Soundproofing" doesn't exist. Isolating to different degrees is what happens. Soundproofing implies silence. That is impossible unless you're in space or you're able to suck all the air out of the building your studio is in. We all know how loud a drum kit is (between 100 and 120dB depending on the genre and player/gear). What we are asking you is how well the building currently isolates from space to space. Maybe the wall between you and the business next door is 4 foot thick cement. Maybe it's a 2x4 wooden frame with no insulation and lightweight drywall on either side. These walls will provide drastically different levels of isolation. If the current dividing wall has drywall on it, you'll have to rip that off to prevent having a three leaf system. Let's put it this way so that you feel like you're getting answers: A typical home studio will be build using a room in a room type construction. Each leaf (wall) will have 2 layers of heavy fire rated 5/8" drywall on them with green glue compound between the layers of drywall. Every seam is sealed with something like green glue sealant. The TL Calculator I linked you to before will show you the levels of isolation you will achieve having different gaps between the wall studs. Typically the minimum gap you would ever have between the wall frames would be 1" to take things like warped studs into consideration -- this would prevent flanking. Even with that 1" gap, you will get usable levels of transmission loss, even at the pesky low frequencies. Now, when we ask you to provide some SPL readings, what we are looking for is what the background noise level is in your neighbours business. Let's say it floats around 65 dB for example. Now, say you set up a drum kit and/or bass amp in your space and crank it as loud as you can, then go next door and take your reading (by the way, you measure with your meter set to C weighted and slow). Say the level in their business is now at like 90 dB, that means you need to achieve an extra 25 dB of transmission loss with your wall system. With the TL calculator I provided, you can see if you will achieve those figures. Without those measurements, you might under build your walls (which would render your space useless), OR you will spend weeks/months extra plus all the extra unnecessary materials OVER building your wall/ceiling system. Sure it will be super nice and quiet, but you just wasted time and money that could go to your retirement fund. I think I proved my point. I can give you a figure here, but it might be way too much or way too little: Assuming you have a concrete dividing wall, you could leave yourself a 6" gap between that wall and your inner leaf wall frame. Assuming you'll have a commercial space with a nice tall ceiling, you'll have to use 2x6 dimensional lumber. Then, you'll have 2 layers of 5/8" drywall. Simple math says that from the edge of the concrete dividing wall to the inside of your studio space: 6 inch gap + 5 1/2" dimensional lumber + 5/8" drywall + 5/8" drywall = 12 3/4" Now, for the ceiling height, that 100% all depends on how far your span across your rooms will be. If you have one massive live room, that means you'll have a long span for your inner leaf ceiling joists. The further they span, the deeper the LVL stud will have to be. Maybe even 14+ inches deep. If your floor plan layout puts your rooms at shorter widths, you will have LVL stud that doesn't have as much depth. However, HVAC is something you cannot avoid dealing with/planning. Each room in your facility needs at least 6 air changes per hour. This is as much as ANY room in a typical house has. Without that many changes, you risk airborne germs from making you sick, mould growth, humidity issues and straight up lack of fresh oxygen. Now, if you've gone to all of the work and invested all the money to achieve your needed transmission loss with your wall and ceiling systems, you will have to cut large holes in your walls and/or ceilings for the HVAC. Now all of your sound gets out and comes in. The solution for that is to achieve the same level of insertion loss as the transmission loss your walls/ceiling/floor provide. That is done with HVAC silencer boxes. These are all home made and are custom to your needs. They aren't complicated and are not hard to build. The problem with them is that they are large, just like the muffler on your car or motorcycle. The size of them is critical to their function. Doubling in cross sectional area created an impedance mismatch which is one of several things that make them work. Each room in your facility needs 4 silencer boxes. One for each leaf penetration on both the supply and return ducts. Now, since you've gone this far in your design and build, you might as well do the final little step in HVAC design and make sure that your air velocity is slower than 300 feet per minute. This will allow you to record and mix without the hiss of fast air coming out of your register grilles. Typically, when you have double the cross sectional area in your ducts from your silencer boxes, this is large enough to slow your air velocity down to the required <300 ft/min. The two other aspects that can affect your "sound proofing" would be doors and windows. Just like your silencer box, you'll need to maintain your transmission loss level. That means the material in you silencer boxes, windows and doors will have to be the same or greater surface density as your walls. That means heavy heavy doors and pretty extreme laminated glass. Each leaf (inner and outer) will need it's own door and window. Now, I'm not describing just a "pro level studio" here. I'm describing what you're asking to build.

I just need to soundproof a place to begin with. Best I can do right now.

That is what it takes. If you don't do even one of the things I described, you won't have a "sound proofed" room. It's like a fish tank. If there's weak spot (a leak), all the water gets out. Another analogy is if you want to block the sun in your bedroom, you hang up some heavy sheets. If there's a spot where it isn't as thick, the sun will get through (maybe not fully, but it'll still light up your room). We are here to help. Often that help means bluntly telling you how it is. It's only to make you think and realize what you may have over looked. The last thing we want anyone on the forum to do it build a space thinking it's going to be awesome and then it doesn't work because the business next to you called the cops and you get shut down. Speaking of the law, you need to get permits for everything you do. For the ceiling joists, unless it's a broom closet, you'll have to use engineered LVL stud type wood which requires an engineers stamp. It doesn't cost much (in the big picture), but often you can't even buy the wood without it. Furthermore, you won't pass the framing inspection without presenting the inspector the paper work showing that your engineer signed off on it. Please don't think we are jerks here. We are not. We just hit you with the questions and facts it takes to give you the answers you need. The results are always safe builds that work as expected.... or better. Greg

If people could please stop posting saying that what I am trying to do is "a problem", I would very much appreciate it.

So you don't actually want the truth, that will enable you to build a studio that does what you want? Strange attitude....

Its very frustrating and depressing to hear people go on and on about how what I am trying to do "won't work".

IT seems you didn't read the rest of what I wrote, because I clearly explained HOW you can MAKE it work... but you ignored that part... Even though I gave you several options...

I am an experienced musician / producer / composer / engineer. I have been doing it for decades and have done work in many large, prestigious facilities, so it is not that I do not like beautiful, elaborately designed rooms. I just can't do that right now. I have also done a lot of really great sounding stuff in what you all would probably consider "unacceptable" spaces.

You are talking about the acoustic response inside the rooms, but that is totally unrelated to your question about isolation. There is no link at all between how to isolate a room, and how to treat it. Those are two entirely different, and exact opposite, facets of acoustics.

I just need to soundproof a place to begin with.

Fine, but as Greg mentioned, their is no such thing as "soundproof". Acousticians don't use that term much, because it is meaningless. Instead, we use "isolation" to talk about stopping sound from getting in or out, and "acoustic response" to talk about what the room sounds like inside. Those are entirely and completely different things. You can have a room with lousy isolation but that has great acoustic response, and it would be just as unusable as a room that is very well isolated but has poor acoustic response. You need both of those to have a usable room, and they are independent. And neither of them is "soundproofing".

When I say substantial soundproofing, I mean I need soundproof the perimeter of the room, to not be a nuisance to the neighbors, while mixing, and tracking. Drums, bass, guitars, keyboards, vocals and the like. And I need to not be bothered by road noise, or that type of thing from outside.

That still isn't a number! Unless you are willing go give us a number, we can't tell you what you will need to do! Guessing is not a good way to build a studio. What you consider to be an acceptable level that is "to not be a nuisance to the neighbors" might not be what THEY consider to be not a nuisance, and what I consider might be different again, with Greg likely having yet another opinion. And your local noise regulations having yet ANOTHER opinion, but that's the one that matters most, since it is the one the defines whether you'll just get a warning when the cops knock on your door, or a fine, or a court order to shut your place down.

Surely some of you must know about how loud a typical tracking session is.

Yes we do, but you didn't way what type of session! What instruments? How many of each? What genre? Even if we assume a typical 6-man band of drums, bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, keyboard and vocalist, that's STILL no good! That might be a soft jazz ensemble singing the blues quietly, or it might be a Grateful Dead cover band, belting it out so loud the ground is shaking! Unelss you tell us, we can't know what you are trying to do! Why won't you tell us? Long story short: we can only help you as much as you help us with valid information. If you won't do that, then we can't help! It's that simple. Not because we don't WANT to help, but because we can't. If you go to the doctor and tell him "I'm sick. Make me better", but then you refuse to tell him what your symptoms are, and refuse to even get a blood test done, will he be able to treat you? That's what you are doing here. If you won't give us the info we need, then we can't help you.

Can't somebody just give me at least a rough idea of about how thick the soundproofing walls / space need to be? If not, I guess I will have to ask somewhere else. Is there another forum where my question would be better posted?

Really? I mean seriously? Is that your attitude to people who are trying to help you, but you won't give them the info that they need? Frankly, if that's the attitude you have towards getting free professional advice from the best place on the internet, then you probably SHOULD go look elsewhere. YouTube might be what you are looking for: there are thousands of really poorly done studios there, with wonderful videos about how they did it, that don't mention all the mistakes they made, or show how terrible it turned out. If you just want useless advice based on pure guesswork with no science at all behind it, and don't mind your studio being a total failure like all of those are, then that's where you should be. On the other hand, if you DO want your studio to isolate well, and you DO want it to sound amazing in there, then you are in the right place here. Just give us the info that we need to help you. And read my signature.

Maybe someone knows of a consultant in my area?

A few of us here on the forum do consulting, but if you hire a consultant, the very first thing he will ask you is this: "How many decibels of isolation do you need"? :) If you refuse to tell him that, then he won't be able to help you either, no matter how much you pay him... - Stuart -

Greg, could you please delete the part of your post where you admittedly went over the line? Its not funny, and, honestly, I don't see what point you say you proved with it. I am dealing with a scare. I will write more later.

Stuart, could you please delete the medical problems reference. sorry to bother you.

Hello Greg, Thanks very much for all that information. My undergraduate and post grad has been in Studio Music, Jazz, composition, arranging, film scoring, voice and the like, along with recording engineering [and oh, yeah, some law studies]. My family had a construction business and I did some work there, but not too much. So I understand the construction tips you gave, but not really all of it. That's all going to be for a consultant to deal with anyway. I obviously can't answer your questions about levels and the neighbors, or even the floor space because I haven't chosen or found the space yet. I thought I made that clear at the outset, but maybe it wasn't clear to you. The reason I am asking about how thick the inner wall and space need to be is so that I can know how big a space I need, taking into consideration what floor space would be lost to the inner wall and space. Then I can find a suitable space, hopefully. The high ceiling is probably going to be the hardest part because there does not seem to be much available around here with real high ceilings. Most of these places have 10' drop ceilings and the ac is already in. Don't know if I will be allowed to re-work the ac or not, but again, the consultant will work on it, I guess. I just want to try to find a large enough space. In my experience, lots of space overcomes a lot of other issues. One place I looked at has concrete [or cinder block] walls between the units. But most don't. The example you gave assumed a concrete wall. How much "thicker" would it need to be for drywall? Did you see my previous post? I would appreciate it, man. audion

Did you see my previous post? I would appreciate it, man.

Done bud. But for real, saving money is the name of the game.

That's all going to be for a consultant to deal with anyway.

What sort of consultant? Aren't you getting free consultation right here on the forum? Honestly, the construction techniques required to build a studio is pretty much nothing like standard construction practice. The only thing the two types of builds share is meeting code. For example, HVAC -- sure you have to follow ASHRAE code, but you pretty much throw out all of standard design criteria that would normally be used in a commercial building such as higher velocities at registers to obtain longer throws. Also, throw non-turbulent design concepts as 90 degree turns are all over studio systems. Smooth transition duct work is not allowed in studio silencer boxes as the immediate change allows the necessary impedance mismatch. For actual framing, ask any carpenter in your area if they know how to build an inside out ceiling or wall. Ask them how many king studs you should have at a door. Ask them where noggins should be near a door and how many. Ask an electrician how they would penetrate your wall, how they'd achieve isolated grounds in your space and what legs they'd run your lights, electrical and HVAC on. Ask a drywaller what drywall they'd use and how they'd seal it. Ask a plumber how they'd de-couple conduit runs throughout your space. Ask a window glazier what windows you should use and how they'd install them. I'd put money on it, that pretty much every one of them would not have the right answers for you.

How much "thicker" would it need to be for drywall?

That is where the TL calculator comes into play. Just try playing around with it and type in some values. Try using 3 layers of drywall with a 12" gap. It will yield greater isolation. I know it must be so annoying to not get an answer, but for real, until you know how many decibels you need to stop from leaving your room (or entering it --- maybe there's a manufacturing business moving in 16 months from now next door to you with really loud saws), you won't know how much isolation you NEED. If you have the money to spend, build a wall system that has a big gap (you will see though, by entering different gap sizes in the TL calc, that the bigger gap stops yielding such great results and you start even 4 inches more gap only yields small returns. Anyway, I hope that answers your question.

Then I can find a suitable space, hopefully.

So this leads us to a question for YOU! If you're so worried about losing a foot or two around the perimeters of your rooms, how big are the rooms you need? What is the criteria that determines if a space is big enough or not? As an example, let me say that your wall system needs to be 1 foot in order to achieve your required level of isolation (build with only wood studs and drywall)?

In my experience, lots of space overcomes a lot of other issues.

For sure! But with it comes higher lease/purchase prices as well as longer and more expensive build out prices! Greg

What sort of consultant? Aren't you getting free consultation right here on the forum?

A studio design / construction consultant who can develop and oversee the buildout [or mini-buildout, as it were]. I am getting a lot of information here, but I am not going to try to convey all that to some construction crew that has never done anything like this before. I mean, I know what Green Glue is, and I follow what you are saying to some degree, but I'll need someone to oversee it. When I was in Manhattan, I had a friend put together a blueprint / plan, and he found a construction guy that knew what he was doing, and I ended up with a pretty nice little one-room studio in my loft. Do you know anyone in Florida who is good? I would need for that person to coordinate / oversee the process.

That is where the TL calculator comes into play. Just try playing around with it and type in some values. Try using 3 layers of drywall with a 12" gap. It will yield greater isolation. I know it must be so annoying to not get an answer, but for real, until you know how many decibels you need to stop from leaving your room (or entering it --- maybe there's a manufacturing business moving in 16 months from now next door to you with really loud saws), you won't know how much isolation you NEED. If you have the money to spend, build a wall system that has a big gap (you will see though, by entering different gap sizes in the TL calc, that the bigger gap stops yielding such great results and you start even 4 inches more gap only yields small returns. Anyway, I hope that answers your question.

Honestly not sure if I know how to use the calculator. There is not going to be any super loud neighbors. These places are just retail stores in strip malls. And if there were super loud neighbors that literally overcame my "soundproofed" space, they would be the ones having to move.

So this leads us to a question for YOU! If you're so worried about losing a foot or two around the perimeters of your rooms, how big are the rooms you need? What is the criteria that determines if a space is big enough or not? As an example, let me say that your wall system needs to be 1 foot in order to achieve your required level of isolation (build with only wood studs and drywall)?

Most of the spaces tend to be about 20' wide, which is not a lot to work with, but there are some that are wider, here and there. At 20', if I have to knock off 2' on either side for the wall system, it would be down to 16' wide, which I think that would be a bit narrow for my liking. So I guess I'll probably need to find one that's wider. Most of them are plenty long. I guess I'd like about 1500 square feet, but I may have to do with less. I have kind of a lot of gear. As far as how much isolation in need, all I can tell you is that I need for it to be pretty darn "soundproof", unless by some miracle I can find a free standing building with no neighbors. And most of these places have drywall dividing walls between tenants. I may get lucky and find a big ass space, but I'm trying to at least guesstimate how much I will lose to the wall system so I know what will work at a "minimum" ????? Thanks, audion

Do you know anyone in Florida who is good? I would need for that person to coordinate / oversee the process.

I personally do not. You could contact some high end studios and ask them who built their places.

A studio design / construction consultant

There are several studio designers on the forum. Mainly, John Sayers. Contact him. If he can't do it, he could recommend others.

Honestly not sure if I know how to use the calculator.

I included notes telling what line is what. There is a spot you can enter your surface density of your wall material. There is a spot where you tell how thick your wood studs are (2x4 or 2x8 or 2x10, or you enter "0" for walls such as concrete). There is a spot where you enter how far apart these walls will be. That's it.

There is not going to be any super loud neighbors. These places are just retail stores in strip malls. And if there were super loud neighbors that literally overcame my "soundproofed" space, they would be the ones having to move.

Okay, so you really need to keep sound from leaving your space. If the walls are just drywall, chances are they used cheap "ultralight" 1/2" drywall. That means you will have a lot of work to do beefing up the super light drywall on their side of the wall by adding 2 or more layers of 5/8" drywall from YOUR side. That means cutting strips of drywall and putting them against the back side of the existing drywall. You hold that drywall in place using cleats.

Most of the spaces tend to be about 20' wide, which is not a lot to work with, but there are some that are wider, here and there. At 20', if I have to knock off 2' on either side for the wall system, it would be down to 16' wide, which I think that would be a bit narrow for my liking. So I guess I'll probably need to find one that's wider. Most of them are plenty long. I guess I'd like about 1500 square feet, but I may have to do with less.

How many rooms will your place have? A control room needs to be at least 20 square meters. A live room typically needs to be quite a bit larger than that. 16' wide isn't too bad. I also doubt your need 24" of wall to achieve the level of isolation you require.

I'm trying to at least guesstimate how much I will lose to the wall system so I know what will work at a "minimum" ?????

The minimum gap between your two leaves drywall is 4". You won't get enough isolation for your needs with that size though! Let's put it this way: The existing diving wall is at least a 2x4 which is 3.5" thick. The inner leaf wall you will build will be the same. So, your MSM cavity is already going to be 7". However, they need to be apart from one another to prevent flanking. So, even if you put an extra inch between them, you're at 8". Let's assume you're on a budget and don't want to go overboard with materials and labour. You will use two layers of 5/8" drywall. Your MSM cavity will have insulation in it. Greg

Also, I thought you might find these images useful: (they're from the Wyle WR 73-5R document if you're curious and want to read that beast of a document) This basically shows that mass on your leaves is more beneficial than the gap. However, mass is harder and more expensive to add than a few extra cm or inches between your walls! Greg

Gregwor wrote:

Do you know anyone in Florida who is good? I would need for that person to coordinate / oversee the process.

I personally do not. You could contact some high end studios and ask them who built their places.

A studio design / construction consultant

There are several studio designers on the forum. Mainly, John Sayers. Contact him. If he can't do it, he could recommend others.

Honestly not sure if I know how to use the calculator.

I included notes telling what line is what. There is a spot you can enter your surface density of your wall material. There is a spot where you tell how thick your wood studs are (2x4 or 2x8 or 2x10, or you enter "0" for walls such as concrete). There is a spot where you enter how far apart these walls will be. That's it.

There is not going to be any super loud neighbors. These places are just retail stores in strip malls. And if there were super loud neighbors that literally overcame my "soundproofed" space, they would be the ones having to move.

Okay, so you really need to keep sound from leaving your space. If the walls are just drywall, chances are they used cheap "ultralight" 1/2" drywall. That means you will have a lot of work to do beefing up the super light drywall on their side of the wall by adding 2 or more layers of 5/8" drywall from YOUR side. That means cutting strips of drywall and putting them against the back side of the existing drywall. You hold that drywall in place using cleats.

Most of the spaces tend to be about 20' wide, which is not a lot to work with, but there are some that are wider, here and there. At 20', if I have to knock off 2' on either side for the wall system, it would be down to 16' wide, which I think that would be a bit narrow for my liking. So I guess I'll probably need to find one that's wider. Most of them are plenty long. I guess I'd like about 1500 square feet, but I may have to do with less.

How many rooms will your place have? A control room needs to be at least 20 square meters. A live room typically needs to be quite a bit larger than that. 16' wide isn't too bad. I also doubt your need 24" of wall to achieve the level of isolation you require.

I'm trying to at least guesstimate how much I will lose to the wall system so I know what will work at a "minimum" ?????

The minimum gap between your two leaves drywall is 4". You won't get enough isolation for your needs with that size though! Let's put it this way: The existing diving wall is at least a 2x4 which is 3.5" thick. The inner leaf wall you will build will be the same. So, your MSM cavity is already going to be 7". However, they need to be apart from one another to prevent flanking. So, even if you put an extra inch between them, you're at 8". Let's assume you're on a budget and don't want to go overboard with materials and labour. You will use two layers of 5/8" drywall. Your MSM cavity will have insulation in it.

Not preserved: 1%22 MSM.png

Greg

I can' figure out how the quotes scheme works on this site. So I respond here to all of the above. I was thinking of the designer also coordinating the construction. I just don't understand what everything means, and when I try to input values it doesn't work. I click on the field and it goes blank and highlights, but it will not take any input. maybe just one big room. but I may cut it into a control room and live room. I just don't understand the terminology of some of what you are saying and I don't understand where and when space goes between walls and how much. Is there just a picture or diagram of the way its built, showing what goes where. Also, its looking like doing anything to the ceiling may be problematic so I don't know if one could get away with not using a "ceiling within the ceiling" strategy or not. audion

Gregwor wrote:

Also, I thought you might find these images useful: (they're from the Wyle WR 73-5R document if you're curious and want to read that beast of a document)

Not preserved: Increasing Panel Spacing.png

Not preserved: Increasing Panel Mass.png

This basically shows that mass on your leaves is more beneficial than the gap. However, mass is harder and more expensive to add than a few extra cm or inches between your walls! Greg

Thanks. The explanation is more helpful than the image, because I don't really understand the image, to be honest. I'm kind of just looking for plain English layman's explanation. I do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now. :) audion

I can' figure out how the quotes scheme works on this site.

Select any text you wish to quote, copy it (control C or command C on a mac), then go to your message body, click the quote button and paste in the text.

I was thinking of the designer also coordinating the construction.

Any designer can give plans to any contractors. It is just advisable to hire contractors that grasp the attention to detail required to successfully build a studio. With the internet and FaceTime, it's possible for the designer to relay techniques and even inspect work remotely from anywhere.... even space if for some reason the designer was an astronaut :lol:

I just don't understand what everything means, and when I try to input values it doesn't work. I click on the field and it goes blank and highlights, but it will not take any input.

I think that's because you're viewing it in preview mode. You would have to click the link and "open with google sheets" or download it and open it with Microsoft Excel -- if you own that program. Here is a picture to show you where the "open with google sheets" button is at the top of the screen:

The explanation is more helpful than the image, because I don't really understand the image, to be honest.

I'm working on a version 2 what will be easier to use and comprehend. I'm just not super good with Excel so I'm having troubles finding solutions for what I want to achieve with it.

I'm kind of just looking for plain English layman's explanation. I do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now.

Well hopefully we've answered your questions enough to help you find a suitable location. This forum exists to answer questions like yours, but also has all of the information needed to guide you to build your dream studio. With that said, if you "do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now", once you find a location, I'd suggest you hire a designer rather than taking up our valuable time on the forum. You never mentioned your budget, but a designer will not be cheap. I'm talking tens of thousands of dollars here.

maybe just one big room. but I may cut it into a control room and live room.

You cannot have one big room that functions as both a live room AND a control room. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. I won't go in to detail why because you've stated that you don't have the time or inclination to learn about it. So just take my word for it and know that you'll need two separate rooms.

I just don't understand the terminology of some of what you are saying and I don't understand where and when space goes between walls and how much. Is there just a picture or diagram of the way its built, showing what goes where.

Here, I quickly drew this up for you to show you. It's 2 layers of 5/8" drywall attached to a 2x4 wooden stud wall. The distance between the walls is what you've been asking about. The distance in my example is arbitrary.

Also, its looking like doing anything to the ceiling may be problematic so I don't know if one could get away with not using a "ceiling within the ceiling" strategy or not.

You CANNOT achieve the levels of isolation you require without having a fully decoupled ceiling (meaning your inner leaf, inner room, ceiling sitting only on the inner room walls and not touching anywhere else). Where were you told that you cannot have such a ceiling construction? As far as I know, there is no law against it anywhere in the world. Greg

Well hopefully we've answered your questions enough to help you find a suitable location. This forum exists to answer questions like yours, but also has all of the information needed to guide you to build your dream studio. With that said, if you "do not have the time or inclination to learn a new profession right now", once you find a location, I'd suggest you hire a designer rather than taking up our valuable time on the forum. You never mentioned your budget, but a designer will not be cheap. I'm talking tens of thousands of dollars here.

Oh, I appreciate all the info. When I said I don't have the time or inclination I did not mean the info isn't useful at all, and I was not being snarky. Its just that I am not dumb enough to try to learn something on the fly, gambling with my own place, when that thing probably takes years of experience to really get good at. Definitely don't want to waste any time, yours or mine. To be fair, I did ask a really simple, narrowly drawn question and did not intend to get anyone to have to go to a lot of effort for a response. To also be fair, I did get the $64.00 response to my two bit question. It was just a longer process getting to the answers than I was envisioning. Good of you to provide so much info. I think I said early on that I was looking for a consultant. I would prefer one in this area, for obvious reasons. As to price, I've been told much less than what you mentioned. I know we had a prestigious architect draw up plans for a 5000 sq. ft. luxury home we had built, and that cost about $1,500.00 a few years back, so I doubt I'll get hit with a quote for tens of thousands of dollars to draw up a plan for 4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]. This is not exactly an elaborate setup, although I understand your point that it should be done properly to work.

You cannot have one big room that functions as both a live room AND a control room. I'm sorry, but it just doesn't work that way. I won't go in to detail wh

y because you've stated that you don't have the time or inclination to learn about it. So just take my word for it and know that you'll need two separate rooms.

Well, I disagree with all of that, and I disagree based on decades of experience. I have done a bunch of good work in one-room setups. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth. In my opinion what you appear to be saying flies in the face of experience, and even common knowledge. I like having two separate rooms [or many separate rooms, for that matter], but it is not a requirement for quality work. For a "real world", and high-end, example, take a look at Peter Gabriels studio.http://realworldstudios.com/studios/big-room/ When I was in L.A. there was a really cool one-room studio in Venice with an amazing 80 series Neve, and just an enormous amount of outboard, all in one giant space with vaulted ceiling. Got great sounds there. Anyhow, I am not here to argue with you, I understand your viewpoint, and you are certainly entitled to hold it. You're not alone, and who doesn't love a beautiful, elaborate studio?

Here, I quickly drew this up for you to show you. It's 2 layers of 5/8" drywall attached to a 2x4 wooden stud wall. The distance between the walls is what you've been asking about. The distance in my example is arbitrary.

This looks like two walls that would be built in addition to the existing wall? I am asking what is the total distance, from the existing walls, of the new wall[s] and the space between the existing wall and the new wall.

Where were you told that you cannot have such a ceiling construction? As far as I know, there is no law against it anywhere in the world.

I don't know that there is any law against it. I just don't know if the owner of the building will allow it, especially if it disrupts or "breaks" existing stuff [electrical, a.c., whatever]. I have no idea. I guess the issue of whether or not it is absolutely necessary would depend on what the consultant finds. It doesn't really bear on the original question though, which just had to do with how much floor space is going to be lost to the new walls. Greg, thanks for your time and effort with all this. Its a pleasure. audion

I know we had a prestigious architect draw up plans for a 5000 sq. ft. luxury home we had built, and that cost about $1,500.00 a few years back, so I doubt I'll get hit with a quote for tens of thousands of dollars to draw up a plan for 4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe].

The difference here is that a studio isn't just "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]". There is a TON of math involved. There are HVAC designs that are far from common place that require a ton of math. I won't bother going into more detail, but I doubt your architect was considering incident angles of different gas flow resistivity materials. Feel free to contact some REAL studio designers, present your desires to them and see what they say. Heck, I can design you a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]" room for free in about 10 minutes if you really want me to, but it will be just that. I just designed you 2 walls in about 2 minutes without a mouse (which in SketchUp makes it 10 times harder). Also, I'm impressed with the price your architect charged for that size of home. For a home half that size, they usually charge $5000 where I live.

Well, I disagree with all of that, and I disagree based on decades of experience. I have done a bunch of good work in one-room setups. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth. In my opinion what you appear to be saying flies in the face of experience, and even common knowledge. I like having two separate rooms [or many separate rooms, for that matter], but it is not a requirement for quality work.

Science disagrees with you. But if you're clearly not trusting us here at the forum when we present images, scientific equations and real figures to you. I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but I am. When it's been proven that gravity exists, you don't just disagree with it. Okay, in your defense, I'm not say you CANNOT record and mix in one room. I'm saying that a live room has very different requirements and characteristics to a mixing room. If you record in a purpose built listening room, your tracks will not sound amazing. If you mix or master in a live room, your mix will not sound amazing. The time domain of either does not jive well with the other's purpose.

This looks like two walls that would be built in addition to the existing wall?

No. This is the entire wall assembly. MSM = Mass Spring Mass. The mass is the drywall. The spring is the space between the pieces of drywall. The only thing I didn't include in the picture (for visual representation reasons) was the insulation. The entire cavity will be filled with insulation. Proper insulation that will work with the frequency at which your MSM cavity is tuned (do you think your achitect who designed your house thought about every wall cavity like this?)

I don't know that there is any law against it. I just don't know if the owner of the building will allow it, especially if it disrupts or "breaks" existing stuff [electrical, a.c., whatever].

In any commercial location, you can do whatever you want with the space while you lease it. As long as you put it back to "ground zero" so to speak after your lease runs out, you're fine. Think about a tanning bed business. Do you think they are able to run all of those beds with existing power in the space when they arrived? Kitchens would have to run new ventilation and fire suppression systems. Almost every business has to jack hammer up concrete to run new plumbing for sinks or bathrooms. I'm sure you will be allowed to run your own ventilation system and have an independent ceiling.

I have no idea. I guess the issue of whether or not it is absolutely necessary would depend on what the consultant finds.

If your consultant tells you that you do NOT require a fully decoupled ceiling, then fire him. That, or get him to provide you with the science and math that proves his conclusion. After that, post his response on the forum so we can see that he has proven physics wrong.

It doesn't really bear on the original question though, which just had to do with how much floor space is going to be lost to the new walls

From a 2D perspective, I've answered your question. From a 3D perspective, the ceiling is very important. If you find a space that only has 8 foot tall ceilings, heck 10 foot ceilings even!, you will be pretty discouraged when you see your ceiling height take a nose dive towards the floor after you build a decoupled ceiling. Remember I said earlier in your thread that the wider or longer, depending on which way your joists run, the deeper your LVL studs will have to be in order to carry the load.

Greg, thanks for your time and effort with all this. Its a pleasure.

Everyone answering questions on the forum here just want your project to be safe and turn out as expected. I hope we've helped. Good luck finding a local studio designer and crew to build your space. I honestly hope it turns out great. Please share design and progress pictures as that is what we all enjoy seeing. Until then, cheers! Greg

When I said I don't have the time or inclination I did not mean the info isn't useful at all, and I was not being snarky. Its just that I am not dumb enough to try to learn something on the fly, gambling with my own place, when that thing probably takes years of experience to really get good at.

Realistically, it takes about 3 to 6 months to learn the basics of acoustics to the point where it is possible to design a studio, then another 3 to 6 months to learn how to actually design a studio (in terms of structures, materials, HVAC theory, etc), then about 3 to 6 months to actually do the design in something like SketchUp. If you don't have the time and inclination to do all of that yourself, then indeed the only other way to get a workable design is hire a designer with a proven track record to do it for you. The actual cost for the designer could vary over a broad range, depending on what part of the design you need him to do.

prestigious architect draw up plans for a 5000 sq. ft. luxury home we had built, and that cost about $1,500.00 a few years back,

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Prestigious architects who design luxury homes do not charge 30 cents per square foot. More like ten times that. At the very low end, you might find a "not very prestigious architect" for maybe US$ 1.50 per square foot, but a big name guy doing a luxury home would be more like US$ 5.00 per square foot. And that's just an architect, not a specialized guy, such as a acoustic designer. That said, a studio design probably won't cost you as much as Greg suggested, except in the most extreme cases for very high end, very large, commercial studios. Home studio designs are usually a lot less than that.

so I doubt I'll get hit with a quote for tens of thousands of dollars to draw up a plan for 4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe].

You are right: that would not be a studio design, just a very basic isolation design, so it would not cost tens of thousands of dollars. Greg probably assumed you were talking about actual studio design, which is very, very different from just designing a simple isolation system. Of course, the isolation design has an effect on the internal studio acoustics, so it is better to hire the same guy to do BOTH the isolation design AND ALSO the studio design. It just makes sense to do that. They do go together, since decisions made in the isolation system can also affect the final acoustic response of the finished studio. You really should consider hiring the same guy to do both.

This is not exactly an elaborate setup, although I understand your point that it should be done properly to work.

Actually, it is! You might not see it that way, but from the point of view of those of us who have some experience in actually designing studios, what you are talking about is far more complex than you think. Designing a control room that meets ITU BS.1116-3 (the spec for all critical listening rooms), or EBU Tech-3276 (another similar spec), or the Genelc spec, or the Dolby spec, or any other spec that is commonly used as the basis for designing a control room, is not an easy task. Here's one such room: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 . And here's another, that is currently in the final stages of tuning: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21368 . But then to also make that room have variable acoustics, such that it can be used as a live room for tracking as well, is an even taller order. So yes, it is an elaborate setup, if you want it done right, to accepted standards. Of course, if you just want mediocre results, and don't care too much about quality, then this is a moot point. In that case, you don't need a design at all! Just throw up some mattresses and carpets on the walls, stick some egg crates on the ceiling, and you'll be fine! :) But if you do want your place to be the best it can be, see my signature, below...

Well, I disagree with all of that, and I disagree based on decades of experience. I have done a bunch of good work in one-room setups. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth. In my opinion what you appear to be saying flies in the face of experience, and even common knowledge.

Well, I in turn will have to disagree with that: If what you say were true, then high-end studios would not bother to spend large sums of money to design, build and treat their studios to perfection, and big-name producers, artists and bands would not pay top-dollar to use those facilities. If what you say were true, then Abbey Road, Blackbird, Metropolis, Galaxy, Power Station, Capitol, Electric Lady, Conway, and all the others would be out of business, since nobody would go there. Yet they exist, and are fully booked (try booking a session in Abbey Road any time soon...) If what you say were true, people like John Sayers and myself would be out of a job, since nobody would need to get their studios designed. Yet I'm pretty much booked solid the year round, and I'm pretty sure John is too.

For a "real world", and high-end, example, take a look at Peter Gabriels studio.

You might want to check your facts better! From an article on that studio: "The Big Room is designed to be one large collaborative recording space, without dividing walls and also houses two isolation booths. Adjoining the Big Room and within the old mill building is the Wood Room. This room features a more lively acoustic and a booth, mezzanine floor and movable acoustic screens." So it's a five-room studio, not a single room studio, with a control room that contains two booths, plus a live room that contains yet another boot, and the Big Room was specifically "DESIGNED" to work as both a control room and a tracking room, and even then the live room has variable acoustics...

there was a really cool one-room studio in Venice with an amazing 80 series Neve, and just an enormous amount of outboard,

From the same argument as you seem to be making, I could very well say that there is never any need for such a console, or the outboard gear, since ""people have done a bunch of good work on small compact consoles. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth". So nobody needs a Neve or outboard boxes to produce great work... :) And yet, the same big-name studios that spend big money on getting their acoustics right, also tend to spend more big money on high-end consoles, speakers, mics, speakers and such. Why use a U47, when you can get the "same" result with an SM-58? Why spends thousands on speakers, when you can master on headphones "real good"? I guess it's a matter of perspective: some people want the best quality they can afford. For other people, quality just isn't that important, and "that'll do" is just fine.

It doesn't really bear on the original question though, which just had to do with how much floor space is going to be lost to the new walls.

Let me illustrate this a different way: you are an experienced producer, so what would you do if somebody came along and asked: "I wrote a song: how many musicians do you think I need to produce it?". And that's all he said. Every time you asked him more about the song, such as the genre, style, arrangement, target audience, etc., the only thing he would tell you is that it's a great song, and he wants to sing it, and he has a lot of experience singing songs, and that all he really wants to know from you, is how may musicians he needs. You explain to him that there's no simple answer to his question, since his song might need a full symphony orchestra with a full choir, or it might just need one guy on a kazoo, but instead of telling you what you NEED to know in order to give him a valid answer, he just keeps on telling you that he disagrees with you, as he's sung many good songs before, and that you really don't need to know how the song goes, or what the rhythm is, or even if it is only vocals, only instrumental, or both! Every time you ask him for more info, so you can try to help him and figure out what musicians he really will need, he instead tells you that Peter Gabriel once recorded a song without saying anything to his producer about the genre or what the song was about, and it was well accepted. And he also tells you that you are wrong to want to know about the song, because there are many other songwriters that have recorded stuff very nicely without telling anybody about their song.... You keep on trying, but you just can't seem to get through to the guy about WHY you need to know more about his song in order to answer his question. So in the end, you decide that the only thing you can actually do is tell him: "Look, the best I can say, considering that you won't tell me enough about our song to give you REAL answer, is that you might need 1 musician, and you might need a hundred. Some typical average contemporary bands have 4 members, some have 20. That's as close as I can get, and I'm just guessing, because you won't tell me enough about your song!" So, in the same spirit, I'll answer your question: How thick does an isolation wall have to be, in total? "Look, the best I can say, is that it might be as little as 6 inches, and it might be as much as four feet. Some typical average home studio walls are 8 inches thick, in total, while others are 15 inches thick. That's about as close as anyone can guess, under the circumstances, because you won't tell me enough about your studio!". I think there's not much more that I can say! Until you actually have a real-world scenario to show us, we can't be of more help, I think.

For a home half that size, they usually charge $5000 where I live.

At least! That would be a typical mid-range house by a mid-range architect. A big name architect doing a luxury home would likely be twice that. Plus expenses. - Stuart -

The difference here is that a studio isn't just "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]". There is a TON of math involved. There are HVAC designs that are far from common place that require a ton of math. I won't bother going into more detail, but I doubt your architect was considering incident angles of different gas flow resistivity materials. Feel free to contact some REAL studio designers, present your desires to them and see what they say. Heck, I can design you a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe]" room for free in about 10 minutes if you really want me to, but it will be just that. I just designed you 2 walls in about 2 minutes without a mouse (which in SketchUp makes it 10 times harder). Also, I'm impressed with the price your architect charged for that size of home. For a home half that size, they usually charge $5000 where I live.

You are acting like I am going to do a full on top shelf studio buildout. I think I made it clear that I am just trying to get my stuff out of storage and into a space where I can hook it up and get it working. If I want to work in a really tricked out studio, I know where they are and how to rent one. I don't think I will be reworking the air conditioning system, unless it rattles or something awful. Otherwise, its just dither. :) Yeah, if you can design me a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe] room" for free in about 10 minutes, that would be great! That will probably be just fine for me!

Science disagrees with you. But if you're clearly not trusting us here at the forum when we present images, scientific equations and real figures to you. I'm sorry if I sound snarky, but I am. When it's been proven that gravity exists, you don't just disagree with it. Okay, in your defense, I'm not say you CANNOT record and mix in one room. I'm saying that a live room has very different requirements and characteristics to a mixing room. If you record in a purpose built listening room, your tracks will not sound amazing. If you mix or master in a live room, your mix will not sound amazing. The time domain of either does not jive well with the other's purpose.

O.K., well then f**k science because I am an artist. Break rules, make music. You are trying to say that my tracks will not sound "amazing", and / or my mix will not sound "amazing". You have no idea what my abilities are, so why would you speak in absolutes like that? It sounds mean, disrespectful, and condescending. I don't mind if you say that you personally think I will have an easier time getting good results if I do it your way, but you are not in a position to say that my work won't sound "amazing", or that it will somehow suffer unless I do what you say. That's what I dislike about all these internet chat rooms.

No. This is the entire wall assembly. MSM = Mass Spring Mass. The mass is the drywall. The spring is the space between the pieces of drywall. The only thing I didn't include in the picture (for visual representation reasons) was the insulation. The entire cavity will be filled with insulation. Proper insulation that will work with the frequency at which your MSM cavity is tuned (do you think your achitect who designed your house thought about every wall cavity like this?)

So where is the pre-existing wall in your drawing?

In any commercial location, you can do whatever you want with the space while you lease it. As long as you put it back to "ground zero" so to speak after your lease runs out, you're fine. Think about a tanning bed business. Do you think they are able to run all of those beds with existing power in the space when they arrived? Kitchens would have to run new ventilation and fire suppression systems. Almost every business has to jack hammer up concrete to run new plumbing for sinks or bathrooms. I'm sure you will be allowed to run your own ventilation system and have an independent ceiling.

Not sure what you are trying to prove, but it seems to me that, as a practical matter, no commercial property owner has to rent to anyone they don't want to rent to. They can just say to themselves, "we don't want a recording studio in our building", or they can make the lease requirements so onerous that it becomes a non-starter.

If your consultant tells you that you do NOT require a fully decoupled ceiling, then fire him. That, or get him to provide you with the science and math that proves his conclusion. After that, post his response on the forum so we can see that he has proven physics wrong.

Oh, sure.

From a 2D perspective, I've answered your question. From a 3D perspective, the ceiling is very important. If you find a space that only has 8 foot tall ceilings, heck 10 foot ceilings even!, you will be pretty discouraged when you see your ceiling height take a nose dive towards the floor after you build a decoupled ceiling. Remember I said earlier in your thread that the wider or longer, depending on which way your joists run, the deeper your LVL studs will have to be in order to carry the load.

What's an LVL stud? I wish you would stop saying that I will be discouraged.

It appears that you've made the mistake most people do. You started building without consulting this forum.

WTF? audion

You are acting like I am going to do a full on top shelf studio buildout.

As Stuart mentioned, when I said a design by a top studio designer would cost tens of thousands, I was referring to a full on commercial studio. Most usually charge by the square foot. As for your quote of what I wrote, no. Everything I wrote there is what would be required for YOUR build. If you want to achieve the isolation it sounds like you require (you recording drums right next to other businesses sharing the same walls and mechanical), you WILL need to consider all of the things I wrote.

I think I made it clear that I am just trying to get my stuff out of storage and into a space where I can hook it up and get it working. If I want to work in a really tricked out studio, I know where they are and how to rent one.

If you don't want to take our isolation advice seriously, I would maybe consider renting a building that isn't attached to other businesses and is far enough away from other people that you do not have to worry about transmission loss levels.

I don't think I will be reworking the air conditioning system, unless it rattles or something awful. Otherwise, its just dither. :)

Dithering sounds a lot different than HVAC noise, but sure.

Yeah, if you can design me a "4 inner walls and an inner ceiling [maybe] room" for free in about 10 minutes, that would be great! That will probably be just fine for me!

I can do that for you, but I need to know dimensions of the existing space, how big you want rooms, where doors go, where windows go, required transmission loss values, and outer leaf materials.

O.K., well then f**k science because I am an artist. Break rules, make music.

"Party on Wayne!" --- Wayne's Word

You are trying to say that my tracks will not sound "amazing", and / or my mix will not sound "amazing". You have no idea what my abilities are, so why would you speak in absolutes like that? It sounds mean, disrespectful, and condescending. I don't mind if you say that you personally think I will have an easier time getting good results if I do it your way, but you are not in a position to say that my work won't sound "amazing", or that it will somehow suffer unless I do what you say. That's what I dislike about all these internet chat rooms.

I'm saying that if you were to put up a room microphone on a drum kit in a poorly designed and acoustically poor room, it would not sound "amazing" compared to one designed by John Sayers. I'm also saying that your mix would translate better if you mixed in a control room designed by John Sayers than a poorly designed, acoustically poor LIVE room. Sure, with a ton of "checking the mix in the car" and a lot of time you could get a mix that sounds amazing. But unless your room meets the specs of a proper listening room, you will struggle to get there, no matter how good you are at your job.

So where is the pre-existing wall in your drawing?

It would be either one of the walls and would be referred to as the outer leaf. The other would be your inner leaf.

Not sure what you are trying to prove, but it seems to me that, as a practical matter, no commercial property owner has to rent to anyone they don't want to rent to. They can just say to themselves, "we don't want a recording studio in our building", or they can make the lease requirements so onerous that it becomes a non-starter.

Of course you'd need to have your studio in an appropriate part of your city. Areas of cities are zoned for certain types of businesses. And of course the owner of the building would have to agree to have a recording facility in one of their units. But once the lease is signed, you have a design and you get building permits, you're good to go.

Oh, sure.

Okay, thanks.

What's an LVL stud? I wish you would stop saying that I will be discouraged.

Google "LVL stud". You wouldn't be discouraged having a 6 foot tall ceiling in your all-in-one live/control room?

WTF?

What are you questioning here? If you actually took the time to read something on this forum, you'd see that countless people started building their studio spaces, failed or realized that they made some major mistakes, then came to the forum, learned how to do it correctly, then ended up with amazing places. It isn't an insult, it's a reality. I'm guilty of it myself. My first studio had a three leaf wall system and I had foam everywhere. Now, here I am trying to help people like you from making the same mistakes myself and many of my colleagues have made. You wish that I would stop saying that you will be discouraged. Well I wish you would stop assuming we are talking down to you and realize that we are offering sound advice (pun intended). You're more than welcome to ask questions. We will keep answering them as long as you don't keep implying that we are wrong and that we aren't helping you. Your thread has 2 pages worth of answers now. Is there anything else we can help you with before you hire a local studio design consultant? Greg

I'm done on this thread. There's no point in trying to help someone who doesn't want to be helped, and thinks he knows better than people with many years of experience doing this, how to isolate a room and how to make it usable, acoustically. I'm not going to wast my time any more here. There are many threads where people actually do appreciate any help they can get. - Stuart -

The actual cost for the designer could vary over a broad range, depending on what part of the design you need him to do.

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

Well, you can believe it.

That said, a studio design probably won't cost you as much as Greg suggested, except in the most extreme cases for very high end, very large, commercial studios. Home studio designs are usually a lot less than that.

No kidding.

You are right: that would not be a studio design, just a very basic isolation design, so it would not cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Yeah.

Just throw up some mattresses and carpets on the walls, stick some egg crates on the ceiling, and you'll be fine! :)

Lot of people doing it that way, making it work, and making money. Funny, I know.

Well, I in turn will have to disagree with that: If what you say were true, then high-end studios would not bother to spend large sums of money to get design build and treat their studios to perfection, and big-name producers, artists ad bands would not pay top-dollar to use those facilities. If what you say were true, then Abbey Road, Blackbird, Metropolis, Galaxy, Power Station, Capitol, Electric Lady, Conway, and all the others would be out of business, since nobody would go there. Yet they exist, and are fully booked (try booking a session in Abbey Road any time soon...) If what you say were true, people like John Sayers and myself would be out of a job, since nobody would need to get their studios designed. Yet I'm pretty much booked solid the year round, and I'm pretty sure John is too.

Well, a lot of places try to play the one-upmanship game and have to spend a lot of money on unnecessary gear and facilities just to try to compete, and to try to reel in the high-paying clients. A lot of artists and producers and such buy into the idea that you have to record in a fancy place to be respected or to get quality work done, or all that, or they just like hanging out in luxurious places. The jig is up, to some extent, and the industry paradigm has obviously shifted, but there are still quite a few real nice rooms doing good work. I love beautiful studios myself. A lot of people would rather work in less extravagant places though, because they can get a better rate and just as good results. I'm glad you're busy.

"The Big Room is designed to be one large collaborative recording space, without dividing walls

Yes. We all know that Gabriels' place has a bunch of stuff to offer, but the main concept of the place, and the way it is most frequently used [as is stated in their site], is as a big-ass one-room studio for tracking and mixing and all that. They can shoe-horn other rooms into the session if someone wants that, or prefers that, but the place is all about the one-room vibe. There are plenty of one-room facilities. Haven't you ever designed one yet? If not, then get with the program, dude. Its the latest thing! :). All else aside, I respect your preference for multi-room studios. I like them too.

From the same argument as you seem to be making, I could very well say that there is never any need for such a console, or the outboard gear, since ""people have done a bunch of good work on small compact consoles. Good work that sounds good, was well received, and so forth". So nobody needs a Neve or outboard boxes to produce great work... :) And yet, the same big-name studios that spend big money on getting their acoustics right, also tend to spend more big money on high-end consoles, speakers, mics, speakers and such. Why use a U47, when you can get the "same" result with an SM-58? Why spends thousands on speakers, when you can master on headphones "real good"? I guess it's a matter of perspective: some people want the best quality they can afford. For other people, quality just isn't that important, and "that'll do" is just fine.

Kind of pointless argument for argument's sake. Good gear in a good space is good. The gear is arguably more important unless you are talking about a really horrible space.

Let me illustrate this a different way: you are an experienced producer, so what would you do if somebody came along and asked: "I wrote a song: how many musicians do you think I need to produce it?". And that's all he said. Every time you asked him more about the song, such as the genre, style, arrangement, target audience, etc., the only thing he would tell you is that it's a great song, and he wants to sing it, and he has a lot of experience singing songs, and that all he really wants to know from you, is how may musicians he needs. You explain to him that there's no simple answer to his question, since his song might need a full symphony orchestra with a full choir, or it might just need one guy on a kazoo, but instead of telling you what you NEED to know in order to give him a valid answer, he just keeps on telling you that he disagrees with you, as he's sung many good songs before, and that you really don't need to know how the song goes, or what the rhythm is, or even if it is only vocals, only instrumental, or both! Every time you ask him for more info, so you can try to help him and figure out what musicians he really will need, he instead tells you that Peter Gabriel once recorded a song without saying anything to his producer about the genre or what the song was about, and it was well accepted. And he also tells you that you are wrong to want to know about the song, because there are many other songwriters that have recorded stuff very nicely without telling anybody about their song.... You keep on trying, but you just can't seem to get through to the guy about WHY you need to know more about his song in order to answer his question. So in the end, you decide that the only thing you can actually do is tell him: "Look, the best I can say, considering that you won't tell me enough about our song to give you REAL answer, is that you might need 1 musician, and you might need a hundred. Some typical average contemporary bands have 4 members, some have 20. That's as close as I can get, and I'm just guessing, because you won't tell me enough about your song!" So, in the same spirit, I'll answer your question: How thick does an isolation wall have to be, in total? "Look, the best I can say, is that it might be as little as 6 inches, and it might be as much as four feet. Some typical average home studio walls are 8 inches thick, in total, while others are 15 inches thick. That's about as close as anyone can guess, under the circumstances, because you won't tell me enough about your studio!". I think there's not much more that I can say! Until you actually have a real-world scenario to show us, we can't be of more help, I think.

That's just word salad. You are conflating things and comparing things that are not at all analogous. Plus, I've told you plenty to get a real answer. There's no need to be pedantic.

At least! That would be a typical mid-range house by a mid-range architect. A big name architect doing a luxury home would likely be twice that. Plus expenses.

Again, meaningless argument for argument's sake. Plus its ridiculous. audion

Soundman2020 wrote:

I'm done on this thread. - Stuart -

Thanks.