Hello, friends!
Thanks, Stuart, I love to see that you keep an eye on us... :)
Sooooo, work keeps going on. Lucky me that I enjoy it because this is all A LOT of work.
Room is painted now, and the studio window between the CR and LR is also about to be finished. Glass is ordered and will be coming this week. Great! 10+10mm acoustic laminated glass for the CR wall (brickwall) and 8+8mm acoustic laminated for the LR wall (drywall sandwich). The glass on the CR side will be angled at 5º and the glass on the LR wall will be straight. I made the frame using wood from fir tree.
How have I done them?
In the LR side I have used Danosa Fonodan 50 acoustic band on the steel frame and on the drywall sandwich (facing the wood frame) so I could then slip the frame tightly in the gap for it. That has worked very well and the window frame seems to sit very tight in that gap. Then I screwed the window frame into the steel channel that I used to frame the drywall. After the wooden window frame was in place, I used Fonodan 50 again on the inner side of the frame, just where the glass will be, as a bedding to it and to the pieces of wood that will keep it in place.
In the CR side I prepared a bigger hole on the wall so I can finish it tomorrow. I Bolted the frame to the wall using 8cm bolts and tomorrow I'll finish and seal the gaps in between wood frame and brickwall with a mix of mortar and mineral wool (in very little pieces). After that is done I will use some rigid fiberboard pannels on the perimeter of the gap between both frames and then glue some acoustic foam to it. Because the fiberglass pannel is so thin (like 5mm), I'll try to place some silica gel bags in the acoustic foam.
Both frames will end up very well caulked on all the edges.
The laminated floor is also on it's way so I hope it arrives tomorrow and it can rest 48hours in the room before we install it on friday or monday.
Stuart, you told me a few months ago that this was starting to look a bit like a studio (when I installed my first door if I remember well); well, right know I have to say I feel I'm getting closer to the part when it all will blup-blup, and chip-chip, and bubble up: The acoustic treatment. I'm really looking fordward to have my windows windowed so I can do the first meassurements, not only to test the isolation, but to design the treatment. :yahoo:
Hopefully I'll have some isolation meassurements by next week. Until then, BIG HUG!
Casaestudio Project
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 20642.
Happy Sunday!
Window finished, laminate floor of the room installed.
Outside the house, 45db attenuation with drums inside playing at 110db. Reading of 65db at 1m from the studio wall of the life room.
In the control room, same approximate values. So happy with the result that fulfills my need to stop disturbing the neighbors. Anyways I have to still give finishing touches to doors and few walls that might increase the isolation.
For the window construction I cut pieces of fiberglass rigid conduit for air conditioning and placed them with glue and sikaflex around the entire inner perimeter of each viewer (covering the internal air chamber of the window... once placed, I outlined and cut some compartments in the fiberglass where I placed desiccant bags to prevent the window from fogging.
The next step was to line that fiberglass paneling with absorbent foam (waves, from Chova) and prepare the jigs for installation.
The two laminated panes arrived, were installed and the result is formidable. I think it's one of the best soundproof elements in the control room.
That same day I took out an old sound card, calibrated REW and made a measurement in the empty room
At the same time we have continued with the plasterboard of the control room and the vocal booth/storage, I think we will finish this week. The truth is that we have to fix many imperfections and cover a few cracks on the walls.
We will reinforce the actual walls of the CR with MAD2 stuck in PYL of 13 and PYL of 15 to finish. Both walls and ceiling. The goal is to add some db more of attenuation to the rest of the house. I'd rather try it out before doing a box in box because I think it will bring what I need and I'll run out of budget. We'll see how it works but I'm confident. If that doesn't work for me I'll plan the isolation to do it in two years.
As soon the CR drywall is finished I'll bring the bundles and attack the acoustic conditioning of the LR. At the same time I'll finish the design of the CR and treat it after de LR.
Cheers
A few more pics
And the desiccant? I do see some bags of what looks like it might be desiccant, but you didn't mention any details about it in the text (type, amount, preparation, etc.). Did you calculate the amount correctly? Did you activate it correctly before installing it?The next step was to line that fiberglass paneling with absorbent foam (waves, from Chova) and prepare the jigs for installation.
You posted photos of some graphs, which look rather strange, but the resolution is way too low to see anything. You didn't post the actual MDAT file, so it's impossible to say what is going on there. Also, I see a photo of what seems to be a single speaker on a stand in the middle of the room: Is that the control room? If so, then that's no use. The speakers (both of them) need to be placed at the exact locations where they will be when the room is finished, which clearly cannot be the where the speaker in the photo is positioned! So the REW data you have is really no use. Please set up your speakers and mic correctly, re-calibrate REW, run the full set of three tests (L, R, and LR), and post the MDAT file some place where we can download it. - Stuart -That same day I took out an old sound card, calibrated REW and made a measurement in the empty room
Hi Stuart and all!! Thanks for the answer.
Type: Dessicant used for shoes and electronics. Don't know the exact type but they are two kinds, one is in form of blue "pearls" and the other is like a gel. Amount: Aproximately a handful of dessicant (I've got big hands, I'm 2 meters tall) Preparation: The dessicant was ready to go, already blue. I didn't need to oven it. Anyways, I took my chance here because I have easy access to the side of the window (it's by a double door) and I could introduce more dessicant if needed.And the desiccant? I do see some bags of what looks like it might be desiccant, but you didn't mention any details about it in the text (type, amount, preparation, etc.). Did you calculate the amount correctly? Did you activate it correctly before installing it?
It's NOT the control room, that's the live room. Anyways, that pic was coming more from my excitement and was not meant to mean anything. Sorry. Attached file dat of REW and some capture. Edit, cannot attach the dat file. How can I attach it? Measurements taken in the empty room. 14 measurements in total. Omni microphone that came with an ARC system. Height of the mic about 160 cm. Only one speaker. The room measures 5m x 3.4m x 2.36m The goal will be to lower the reberveration time to 200ms - 400ms and fix the most pronounced problems. I'm looking for help locating those problems. I'll investigate about it but I have to focus on the steeper peaks and valleys, right? Thank you, let's see if I can do some studio shot!Also, I see a photo of what seems to be a single speaker on a stand in the middle of the room: Is that the control room?
Upload it to a file-sharing service, such as Dropbox, and post the link here.Attached file dat of REW and some capture. Edit, cannot attach the dat file. How can I attach it?
It's NOT the control room, that's the live room.
Live room? We are still in the live room, correct?Measurements taken in the empty room.
So you are measuring at standing ear height?Height of the mic about 160 cm. Only one speaker.
That's too short for a live room. I would aim for something rather higher than that.The goal will be to lower the reberveration time to 200ms - 400ms
Wellll..... that's part of it, yes, but not really.... :) It's more complicated than that... :) - Stuart -I'll investigate about it but I have to focus on the steeper peaks and valleys, right?
https://www.dropbox.com/pri/get/Public/Casaestudio%20Live%20room.mdat?_subject_uid=13623364&w=AACNY49UVWz-H_lZvFAJ_1zw8i2070Z-L5TYrsosxayj-Q ThanksUpload it to a file-sharing service, such as Dropbox, and post the link here.
Yep, we are still in the LR. I won´t do the control room until the LR is up and running.Live room? We are still in the live room, correct?
More or less. I was hoping these meassurements would reveal any big problems if I had any.So you are measuring at standing ear height?
You are right. My ears ask for a longer reverb too. What is the longest reverb you think is nice for an all-purpouse music recording live room? don't forget we are talking about a 16m2 room with ceiling at 2,36 meters.That's too short for a live room. I would aim for something rather higher than that.
Well, I know this is not a mixing room. It's a recording room and eventually I will be throwing mics in different spots to capture different sources... so I'm not looking to plan and build the acoustic treatment ONLY based on these meassurements. I just want to be able to identify the big problems I might be facing. I have started building corner slot-slat traps already, and I'm "tuning" the slats and slots to four different frequencies. My idea is to treat the room so one half of it is a bit live and the other half is more tight and dry. Thanks for readingWellll..... that's part of it, yes, but not really.... :) It's more complicated than that... :)
Nope. It doesn't want me! This is what I get when I click your link: You probably made it private, not public. - Stuart -https://www.dropbox.com/pri/get/Public/Casaestudio%20Live%20room.mdat?_subject_uid=13623364&w=AACNY49UVWz-H_lZvFAJ_1zw8i2070Z-L5TYrsosxayj-Q Thanks
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2aoyjygvihb511p/Casaestudio%20Live%20room.mdat?dl=0
Sorry, this should be fine.
Theoretically, you could probably get it up to about 1700 ms, but realistically I think I'd be looking for something more like 700 to 1100 if that were my room.You are right. My ears ask for a longer reverb too. What is the longest reverb you think is nice for an all-purpouse music recording live room? don't forget we are talking about a 16m2 room with ceiling at 2,36 meters.
I doubt you'll be able to achieve that in such a small room. That would be fine for a bigger room, but for a small room I think it would be better to have variable acoustic treatment at several key points that an be "adjusted" in some manner, to change the acoustic response in that area, and for the room as a whole. Variable acoustic design is a bit more complicated, though. But it can be very effective for small rooms.I have started building corner slot-slat traps already, and I'm "tuning" the slats and slots to four different frequencies. My idea is to treat the room so one half of it is a bit live and the other half is more tight and dry.
:thu: Downloading now.... - Stuart -Sorry, this should be fine.
... adding on to the last post:
You have clear issues at these frequencies:
36.5 *** 1.0.0
70.1 *** 2.0.0
75.9
83.0 * 2.1.0
89.8 * 0.1.1
103.0 *** 3.0.0
110.8 * 2.1.1
115.4 * 3.1.0
129 ** 1.2.1
137 *** 4.0.0
147 *** 0.0.2
175 *** 5.0.0
Most are modal. The numbers at the end show which mode I think each is associated with, and the number of stars shows how convinced I am that the number is correct. *=not so convinced, ****=100% positive.
So obviously the longitudinal axis is a big problem since almost all of the modes are associated with it. I would suggest a large thick absorber in the middle of one end wall, perhaps with large, thick wood planks or beams partially in front of it, and small superchunks in the corners of the opposite end wall. The first device I mentioned would be a good candidate for a variable device.
However, apart from that, I have no idea what I'm looking at! Please provide a diagram showing the exact location of the speaker and the mic for each of those measurements.
Your current decay time is around 1300-1400 ms, so you are going to need some small absorption panels on the side walls, and those could be variable as well, based on a basic "slot wedge" design.
The ceiling is low, so you could probably do several smallish, simple angled or curved panels with absorption on the other side, that can be flipped over or adjusted to be at different angles.
Also build a couple of gobos that can be moved around as needed.
- Stuart -
Thank you very, very, very much!
I'm going to update my sketchup file and mark the positioning of the speaker and mic of the meassurements. Also I'll work on the ideas I've got for the treatment and share them asap.
I'll be back soon.
:)
Hello, this is the sketchup file. I positioned each meassurment position I used.
Still working on my treatment ideas. Oh, and never mind the control room, that's still a raw room.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p25k09lki1208lw/casaestudio%20Sala%20mediciones.skp?dl=0
Thanks a lot for that input!!Most are modal. The numbers at the end show which mode I think each is associated with, and the number of stars shows how convinced I am that the number is correct. *=not so convinced, ****=100% positive.
Cool! I already built three superchunks in the corners where I could manage to build full floor to bottom ones. The superchunks are 45cm x 45cm x 68cm (more or less, don't remember exactly now). Those are going to be turned into slat-slot superchunks. So here's my first question: Is it worth to leave the top and bottom part of the superchunk with no slats? Will it increase the effect on bass absorbtion and flutter removal? I have also built a 10cm thick (almost 4") treatment on one end wall. Lots of mineral wool there... I could actually make it 2.5cm thicker. Do u recomend it? My Idea was to leave it with the cloth cover but I could use planks of wood to make it more reflexive. I'm somewhere in between 400 and 500ms in RT30 by now and would like to bring back some life back to the room. The side wall where the window is also treated, this time with about 2" mineral wool. This side wall is meant to be covered with slats. I hope that contributes to give a bit more "air" too. The mineral wool I use is of 70kg density.I would suggest a large thick absorber in the middle of one end wall, perhaps with large, thick wood planks or beams partially in front of it, and small superchunks in the corners of the opposite end wall. The first device I mentioned would be a good candidate for a variable device.
My Idea, for the wall in front of the window, was to build a full frame, from bottom to top, so I would build 10cm thick superchunks all along the wall on the top, right where the ceiling meets the wall. Under that I planned a 2 meter slat slot wedge (about half of that wall's length) so I'd brake the paralelism with the window.so you are going to need some small absorption panels on the side walls, and those could be variable as well, based on a basic "slot wedge" design.
Going for angled panels that will be hanging... Do you think 2" mineral wool absorption would be enough? Instead I also have the possibility of building slot wood wedges on the ceiling which I think would also be more aesthetic. Thanks a lot for all your input and advice.The ceiling is low, so you could probably do several smallish, simple angled or curved panels with absorption on the other side, that can be flipped over or adjusted to be at different angles.
Just realized the pics from the building process don't clarify the overall design. Let me take a few pics as the room is now and upload them.
Cheers!
One end of the room. With two superchunks on the corners and a 8cm thick absortion wall. I was thinking on leaving the walls with cloth and two or three planks of wood from where I could hang reflective devices in order to change the acoustics whenever I want. The superchunks will be both helmholtz resonators.
To the right of the last pic, where the mic is, is the side wall with a 8cm thick bottom to ceiling to the left of the door; right by the superchunk. Surrounding the window there's 4cm thick treatment tilting and growing to 8cm thick towards the end of the wall meeting the ceiling.
The other end of the room is untreated yet. Just 1 superchunk on the right. That wall is not parallel to the oposite end. I'm planning on building a bass trap just over the door and that upper corner.
The other side wall is still "naked". Just the two superchunks I built for the end walls. I'm planning on building slatted wedges on half of that wall, just in front of the window. Sorry for the pic, this is the only place from where I could make that wall fit in the pic.
Hope these pics clarify the room. :roll:
Hugs!
Well, quickly.
We are finishing one end of the room with a clearer design and finish. As for the design, the tests performed on the superchunks in the corners have led me to modify two of the traps I was building. A good move, I think. I removed all the mineral wool triangles and followed the design with two sheets of mineral wall and two air chambers.I'm sorry for the picture quality but I think you can appreciate ...
In black, the area of one of them with the empty room.
In light blue, with the superchunk filled with triangles of LR without air chamber (and without slats).
In fuxia, with the change of today, changing the triangles for two sheets of 4cm thick, one behind the other, leaving air gap between them and behind them. Still no slats yet.
As for the finishing, we have installed some frieze on the absorbent wall to give it a little more resistance. It might be that I add more frieze when I finish treating the walls to bring back mor mids and highs. We'll see.
And nothing more. Oh, well, I've also done a test hanging a panel on the ceiling ... I think I'll go that way, hanging 6 panels.
Cheers.
New set of meassurements.[url]https://www.dropbox.com/s/unz4fbvqanueh54/casaestudio%20half%20treated.mdat?dl=0
[/url]
Mic locations map.
Still the window wall's treatment does not have the slats installed. I hope that will bring back some brightness and greater the decay time on his and mids.
Going to build the side angled slat resonator wall in front of the window now. That will be tuned to trap from 50 to 80hz
Good morning, some comments on the latest developments in the Live Room.
Superchunks with triangles Vs. Superchunks with two layers of mineral wool and air gaps.
Better performance with triangles. More expensive (about 10 times more mineral wool is used) although it does not have a 10 times higher performance, of course. I went for the triangles finally since I have lots of mineral wool.
Live room? Dead room? Dry room?
While I have been conditioning the room I have been testing diferent solutions and taking into considertaion both, measurements with REW and critical listening. Doing frequency sweeps in loop and playing music that I know well while walking through the room have been very helpful. In this way I have tried to locate the most critical frequencies and try to point to them in the slat slot resonator calculations.
My initial goal was to keep a tr of around 500ms but I soon realized that the size of the room required being very surgical to achieve something like while keeping a controlled sound (something hard to get with my little experience)... but I also realized that you can keep a live room still keeping it dry in terms of reverb and get good results in terms of sound. A low TR does not necessarily have to be bad in a Live Room. The slat-slot walls and traps absorb the bass well but still bring reflection in mids and highs that benefit the room a lot. I think drums, for example, will take advantage of that. This reflection keeps a much more vivid sound and there is a VERY appreciable difference between one end and another of the room: sound more dead at the end with absorbent walls and brighter at the other end of the room, where the window and slat wall are. I am happy with the results so far.
Low ceiling, a big problem?
Initial ceiling: 252cm high
After isolating: 236cm high (15mm drywall + MAD4 + 13mm drywall and 11cm air chamber)
After conditioning: 226cm high (system of hanging panels filled with 4cm thick mineral wool and air chamber of about 6cm over these)
These clouds have eliminated the annoying reflections between ceiling and floor and there is still a pleasant height, although a little to the limit, that if. I think the overhead drum miking will not be problematic. Before building the room I hoped to get a more characteristic room sound; Over time I have understood that the room is too small to achieve that and still use it for multiple purposes, so we must add that reverb artificially ...
I hope I'll finish the room this upcoming week. Very little left to do: Finish the slats in third superchunk, finish the bare wall as well as three ceiling panels and setting up electrics.
Until next post ... big hug!
Going ahead with my infinite baffle and soffit.
Just one question: Do I need to box my monitors even though they are on an isoated stand?
Cheers!
That's what I did. I then made a bezel that fit over the speaker with about a 1/8" airspace all around the speaker. I haven't noticed any issues.
Thanks for your answer, Eric Best. What is the importance of boxing the monitors? I mean, what does actually happen when you box them? I’ve always thought it was done to isolate the monitor from the soffit, that’s why i doubt if to box mine, because Of my stands..That's what I did. I then made a bezel that fit over the speaker with about a 1/8" airspace all around the speaker. I haven't noticed any issues.
I'm not really sure either, that is why I didn't spend the time doing it. I think that if the speaker cabinets are well damped and the front wall massive, I don't think there is an issue.
Thanks again, Eric. I've been following your posts also, and learnt a lot from them.
Since I know you like to mess around and work on speaker related stuff... I have a pair of Dynaudio BM6A that I want to mount on the soffit. I'd like to give it a try.
My plan is:
1. To extend the cabling and move the amp cover to the sidewalls right by the soffits.
2. To damp the inside of the speaker box with insulation
3. To dump the bass reflex port with insulation
4. To adjust the LF Trim
Is there any other thing to do that you would suggest?
Should I tie the speakers to the stands using straps?
Should I leave an air path to cool down the monitor even if I move the power amp out of the soffit?
Thanks a lot!!
It adds mass and rigidity, if you do the "tight fit" mounting method, which makes it harder for the speaker itself to vibrate, lowers the resonant frequency of the entire thing, and makes it harder for the speaker to transmit vibrations into the structure.What is the importance of boxing the monitors? I mean, what does actually happen when you box them?
Only if you go with the "fully floated" mounting system, which is what I normally do.I’ve always thought it was done to isolate the monitor from the soffit,
The interior of the speaker box is already damped properly by the manufacturer, at the factory, by careful design. I wouldn't mess with that.2. To damp the inside of the speaker box with insulation
Definitely.3. To dump the bass reflex port with insulation
Do that as part of the final room tuning, using REW, after you have everything mounted.4. To adjust the LF Trim
Definitely! Either rigidly (using the rigid "enclosure box" method), or floated properly on pads, but still tied down.Should I tie the speakers to the stands using straps?
Definitely! Speaker drivers are extremely inefficient. Your amp might be pumping a hundred watts of electrical power into the driver, but you'll only be getting maybe one watt of acoustic power out of it. The rest has to go somewhere: it is mostly dissipated as heat, and that happens at the driver, not the amp. The reason that an amp has a heat sink on it is to dissipate the heat created by the amps own inefficiencies, not to deal with the highly inefficient conversion of electrical power into sound power. So you still need to ventilate the speaker box, even if the amp is elsewhere. - Stuart -Should I leave an air path to cool down the monitor even if I move the power amp out of the soffit?