Hi all,
My name is Francis and I'm from Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
I'm new to this forum so please bare with me with all the newbie questions.
I build our custom home 5 years ago and had dedicated a room above our garage to build a recording studio into. The room is 26' x 28' and has 12-13' sloped ceilings with a 12/12 pitch (45degrees). I will make another post after this one and attach a few pictures to show the current status of the room.
My goal is to divide the room into 3. 1 x live room, 1 x local booth and 1 x control room.
Since this room is above my garage I'm not worried about the noise transfer going to the room below. You'll see in the pics below that the only thing connecting the studio to the house is the staircase and the two storage areas beside it.
My questions right now are more related to the noise proofing than the acoustics as I first want to make sure that while I'm playing in the studio I'm not bothering the rest of the house.
First thing I'd like to ask you all is since my entire studio is over my garage, do I really need a floating floor? (I'm sorry...I know...I read the README post after I posted lol. Strike 1?)
Regardless I'm planning on building a decent size floating stage (approx. 22' x 7.5') for the live room to put the drums on as well as guitar amps and such but wasn't thinking of floating the entire live room. The main idea is to run all my wiring in the stage to floor pockets. The stage would be sitting on Auralex U-Boat floaters and build with 2x8 studs insulated with R22 6" Roxull leaving 1-2" of air gap and then covered with 1 sheet of 3/4" plywood glued and a 2nd layer of 3/4" plywood sandwiched with Green Glue.
Second, same as above..do I really need to have a floating floor for my control room and vocal booth?
I will be building 2 walls to seperate the control & vocal booth from the live room. Wall facing the live room will be 2x6 insulated with WhisperClips, Resilient Channel and 2 x sheets of 5/8 drywall with glued with Green Glue and sealed with Green Glue. Interior wall facing control room will be 2x4 insulated with 2 x sheets of 5/8 drywall sealed and glued with green glue.
I'm debating using rubber strips to "float" my walls....again being above the garage I'm not sure if it's needed.
This is a very exciting time for me :D as I've been dreaming of doing this for a very long time.
I'd like to thank you all in advance for your patience, guidance, help and feedback.
Cheers,
Francis
Help with Planning & Building of my Recording Studio
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 20384.
As mentioned in my first post, I've attached some pics of the room....as you can see not that much has been done. The room was sealed off with Enermax Acoustical panels...VS the typical vapor barrier.
???? Not sure I understand that! The vapor barrier always goes up against the WARMER leaf, never on the colder leaf. You live in Canada. It gets pretty cold there: your exterior wall will be extremely cold. If your vapor barrier is on the outer leaf, which is cold, then condensation will form on it... Did you have that design checked by an inspector? Is it approved for your location? Does your local building code permit vapor barriers on outside walls?The room was sealed off with Enermax Acoustical panels...VS the typical vapor barrier.
You might want to read this: ... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173The stage would be sitting on Auralex U-Boat floaters and build with 2x8 studs insulated with R22 6" Roxull leaving 1-2" of air gap and then covered with 1 sheet of 3/4" plywood glued and a 2nd layer of 3/4" plywood sandwiched with Green Glue. .... Second, same as above..do I really need to have a floating floor for my control room and vocal booth?
It sounds like you are not understanding the concept of fully-decoupled 2-leaf MSM construction! Why do you want to decouple the wall, then also use WhisperClips to decouple it again, then also use RC to decouple it yet again??? Also, using RC on clips is not allowed. You use either RC, or you use clips plus hat channel. But you don't need any of those if your wall is already decoupled...I will be building 2 walls to seperate the control & vocal booth from the live room. Wall facing the live room will be 2x6 insulated with WhisperClips, Resilient Channel and 2 x sheets of 5/8 drywall with glued with Green Glue and sealed with Green Glue. Interior wall facing control room will be 2x4 insulated with 2 x sheets of 5/8 drywall sealed and glued with green glue.
See above thread on floating floors: The same applies here. - Stuart -I'm debating using rubber strips to "float" my walls....again being above the garage I'm not sure if it's needed
Hey thanks for taking the time to reply Soundman! Much appreciated!
To clarify a few things...
The enermax panels installed were indeed installed on the warm side and replaces the conventional plastic vapour barrier. Have a peek at the pictures I posted.
As for the floating stage idea...I read the sticky thread shortly after I posted and I may just pass on the U-Boats since it would likely be a waste of money. I still want to build the drum riser since I want to run all my snake cables under it and have a few stage boxes to keep things clean. I have a bunch of Roxull insulation left over from the house construction so I will likely use it between the joists...im sure that can't be bad??
Lastly for decoupling the walls for the control room and vocal booth...I think I didn't explain myself properly...the wall facing the live room would be insulated 2x6 construction then use clips with hat channel not RC...then 2 layers of 5/8"....inside wall of control room and vocal booth would be 2x4 insulated and have 2 layers of 5/8". Does that make more sense?
Thanks again for taking the time to help out and answering my newbie questions...it is much appreciated.
Cheers!
Francis
Ahhh.. OK that's fine then. I though I was seeing the outer-leaf framing in those pics, not the inner-leaf framing. So your plan is just to put drywall directly on the studs and joists that are visible in your pics?The enermax panels installed were indeed installed on the warm side and replaces the conventional plastic vapour barrier.
That's fine too. I thought you were talking about trying to create an actual floating stage. But a Glenn-type drum riser is an excellent option, and does allow you to run your cables underneath, as long as you cut slots in the skirt to allow them through without touching the riser itself.As for the floating stage idea...I read the sticky thread shortly after I posted and I may just pass on the U-Boats since it would likely be a waste of money. I still want to build the drum riser since I want to run all my snake cables under it and have a few stage boxes to keep things clean. I have a bunch of Roxull insulation left over from the house construction so I will likely use it between the joists...im sure that can't be bad??
Not really! :) Why do you need the 2x6 for one leaf and 2x4 for the other? There's no need to use 2x6. That would only be needed if you had a really heavy load to support above that wall, but that doesn't seem to be the case: the roof is already fully supported. That's basic just going to be a simple partition, so 2x4 would be fine for that. It would be good if you do a diagram of your complete design, in SketchUp preferably, so we can see what you are planning. I have a feeling that there's something going on here that might not be right, but it's hard to figure out from just words! Pictures are worth thousands of words... :) - Stuart -Lastly for decoupling the walls for the control room and vocal booth...I think I didn't explain myself properly...the wall facing the live room would be insulated 2x6 construction then use clips with hat channel not RC...then 2 layers of 5/8"....inside wall of control room and vocal booth would be 2x4 insulated and have 2 layers of 5/8". Does that make more sense?
I've installed two layers 1x3" strapping @ 16" OC over the enermax (1 vertically and 1 horizontally) as I will be installing 3/4" wood paneling vertically to cover all of the ceilings.
You are correct...the roof is already fully supported. The reason why I want to build the leaf in a 2x6 is simply because I still have lots of that material laying around from the original house build. (studs and R22 Roxull insulation) I figured it couldn't hurt...and thought it could even potentially add a little better insulation compared to 2x4.
I have a construction plan being done in AutoCAD by my cousin and I should have it this week. I will post it as soon as I get it back from him.
Again, thanks for taking the time to help! I'm very excited to getting everything started.
Francis,
Hi All!
As promised here's a draft of the floor plan for my studio build. Please note a few things that need to be corrected:
1) The Entrance Partition describes the wall construction starting with 1/2" gypsum but it is 2 layers of 5/8" sandwiched in GG.
2) All partitions show resilient channels whereas it is Hat Channel with GenieClips.
3) Plan indicates the stage as being built with 2x10 studs where is it likely to be 2x6 instead.
Note that this is a draft and am open to suggestions :)
For the stage, I'm wondering if I need to "float" it or not. The noise isolation is not a really a problem as under the studio is my garage and i don't really care if the noise can be heard in there. The only reason I'm considering the floating option is if it's going to help with the acoustics in any way. I'd like to use the same stage/platform to but the guitar and bass amps onto to help reduce noise transfer through the floor. I'm thinking a floating stage would help with that.
Let me know if something needs to be clarified
Cheers,
Francis,
Hi all, here's an updated version of my plan that has the corrections mentioned in the original post. I've also included the staircase and two storage areas.
I've received my new ADP MX Air Handler and will be starting the duct work tomorrow night. I'll try and post pictures as progress is made.
Feedback or suggestions are welcomed
Cheers,
Francis
a few updates...
The rough duct work has been installed and the air-handler is in place. Next will be to frame a few walls to hide the duct work and insulate as best possible. So far I'm thinking of building 2x4 stud wall and fill the cavities with R14 Roxull insulation then cover it with 2 layers of 5/8" drywall.
More to come! :)
Well it sure has been a while since I have posted any updates and/or progress on this studio build but better late than never I guess.
Main reason why there hasn’t been any progress is just life in general. I wasn’t able to do much progress over the last year but I’m getting back into it now. I’ve done a lot of reading and am getting more and more comfortable with this build but considering the room type I have to work with I do have a few questions. Note I’ve done plenty of research but wasn’t able to find anything specific to what I'm doing.
Now, while I do understand that a studio build above a garage with wooden floor isn’t ideal, the bottom line is that it’s my only option and it’s all I have to work with. From this point on I’m trying my best to do things right. That being said, the design plan I had shown in my previous posts has changed quite a bit. I will try and post an updated one as soon possible but before I do that I’d like to ask a few questions mostly regarding the way to proceed with my ceiling.
Looking at the first few pictures I posted, you’ll see the current state the room is in which is pretty much just sealed from the exterior. I could technically just put drywall over the furring strips you see in the pictures and call it a day. This would give me one big room to use (26’ x 28’) but that’s not what I’m ultimately after.
As per the original plan what I’m hoping to do is frame a few double wall partitions to separate each usable room (Control, Vocal Booth, and Live Room). Framing the wall is the easy part but what I’m unsure of is what do to about the ceilings.
Question #1: If I was to frame the double walls all the way up to the current existing ceiling this wouldn’t give me a true “room within a room” unless I actually framed an independent ceiling for each separate room correct?
Question #2: Is there any way I could use the existing ceiling for each of the separated room? Could I possibly just install RST clips with 2x 5/8” Drywall sandwiched with GG to my existing ceiling to decouple my ceiling within each separate room?
In the end, if framing independent ceilings for each room is the only way to go to make this functional I suppose that’s just what I’ll do but if there are other options I’d love to hear them out.
Again, thanks for any advice/feedback provided.
Frank,
Correct.Question #1: If I was to frame the double walls all the way up to the current existing ceiling this wouldn’t give me a true “room within a room” unless I actually framed an independent ceiling for each separate room correct?
That is possible, yes, using clips and hat channel, but then how would you deal with the top edge of your walls? If there's no ceiling framing on the walls to provide structural integreity, then they'll just sort of be out there, flapping in the breeze... You could use sway braces to keep them properly supported and aligned, but that adds extra cost. - Stuart -Question #2: Is there any way I could use the existing ceiling for each of the separated room? Could I possibly just install RST clips with 2x 5/8” Drywall sandwiched with GG to my existing ceiling to decouple my ceiling within each separate room?
Wow! You are on point today! haha
First thanks for the really quick reply!!
For the top edge of my walls, I was thinking of using iso-sill a rubber isolation strip along with a iso-washer. Here's a link to the product http://www.acoustiguard.com/products/soundproofing-walls-ceilings/iso-sill-plate-isolation.html I've attached a quick drawing of what I was thinking...sorry about the crap quality haha. the picture just shows the top of one wall and how I was thinking of securing it to the ceiling. I'd be using this fastening method at every 16" at the top of the wall to furring strips located at every 16" on my existing ceiling. I can try and draw a more complete idea if needed... let me know your thoughts.... Your help is much appreciated Stuart!! Thanks!That is possible, yes, using clips and hat channel, but then how would you deal with the top edge of your walls? If there's no ceiling framing on the walls to provide structural integreity, then they'll just sort of be out there, flapping in the breeze... You could use sway braces to keep them properly supported and aligned, but that adds extra cost.
I'm aware of the product, and I do sometimes recommend it for isolating walls, but only when used as it is intended to be used: Under the sole plat, with the weight of the wall resting on it, causing the correct deflection in the resilient compound. I did not see anything on the manufacturer's website suggesting that it can be used in the manner you propose. How would you be able to apply the hundreds of kilograms of force to that, in order to produce the required deflection? Have you contacted the manufacturer to check that their product is approved by building code for the application you propose, and that it will work, acoustically, to isolate the wall top from the outer-leaf framing? If the manufacturer does not market it for that purpose, then it would probably not be a good idea to tempt fate. - Stuart -For the top edge of my walls, I was thinking of using iso-sill a rubber isolation strip along with a iso-washer. Here's a link to the product
I did contact the manufacturer a while back and they had suggested I use this product for both the top and bottom plates, but fair enough, the way I'm thinking of using this product for the top plate isn't really the true intended use as advertised. I will try and get in touch with them again and see what they have to say about this method. in terms of the hundreds of kilograms of force..having 2 layers of 5/8" drywall on the left side of my drawing for sure will apply some force...but might not be sufficient. :/ You did mention "sway braces"? Would you have an example of this product? I'd be okay with this extra cost since it's almost a must in my case. I'll start looking online for available products...I'm thinking that the company I deal with for everything else likely has something similar. Again thanks for your prompt responses! Cheers,I'm aware of the product, and I do sometimes recommend it for isolating walls, but only when used as it is intended to be used: Under the sole plat, with the weight of the wall resting on it, causing the correct deflection in the resilient compound. I did not see anything on the manufacturer's website suggesting that it can be used in the manner you propose. How would you be able to apply the hundreds of kilograms of force to that, in order to produce the required deflection? Have you contacted the manufacturer to check that their product is approved by building code for the application you propose, and that it will work, acoustically, to isolate the wall top from the outer-leaf framing? If the manufacturer does not market it for that purpose, then it would probably not be a good idea to tempt fate.
Alright! So I have contacted the manufacturer and after explaining to them what I was trying to do, they have advised me to go with this isolation bracket for what I am trying to do. This will be a much better suited product for what I'm trying to do. My previous idea was good but as Stuart mentioned..not ideal. I will be placing an order for RST clips next week and will order these brackets for the two walls I planned on bracing on the existing ceiling.
http://www.acoustiguard.com/products/soundproofing-walls-ceilings/iso-bracket-a-resilient-sound-isolation-brace.html
Right! That's a form of sway brace. Here's another type: Before you buy, look around at different products from different manufacturers, to see which one will work best for your situation. NOT which one is cheaper! Which one is best for the purpose. - Stuart -they have advised me to go with this isolation bracket for what I am trying to do. This will be a much better suited product for what I'm trying to do.
Yes!! There's quite a few of them...so it was hard to figure out what would be best for me. Actually the type you just mentioned is what I was looking at initially...but seems like with my sloped ceilings the one I'm looking to buy would be best suited.
I certainly don't want to cheap out on stuff like this...I don't mind spending a bit more money on things that will make the overall quality of my studio better. As your signature says..."I want this studio to amaze people. 'That'll do' doesn't amaze people" haha. That being said at 8$ a pop...they're not cheap lol
Thanks again!!
Frank
Yup! "amazing" ain't cheap! :) - Stuart -"I want this studio to amaze people. 'That'll do' doesn't amaze people" haha. That being said at 8$ a pop...they're not cheap lol
Alright!
Sounds like my cousin won't be able to help me out with the construction plans so I've decided to start using Sketchup so that I can best explain what I'm trying to do/build. I'll be posting some pictures as soon as I can have something worth posting haha.
Before I start drafting plans of my walls/floors.etc I do have a few questions regarding decoupling and dampening. I've done some research but can't seem to get a clear answer on what are my best options. Once again I do understand that building a studio above a garage isn't the best option but it's all I have so I'm trying my best to do things right.
Question 1) I'll def be using the double stud wall concept...this is what makes my walls/rooms decoupled from each other correct?
Question 2) I'm framing these double walls on an existing wooden sub-floor (over my garage), it's obvious that my weakest link here is my wooden floor correct?
Question 3) Framing walls directly on top of the sub-floor I'm wondering if I need to do anything special to help/address flanking from one room to another through the floor. I understand that I can add mass to my floor but what about the walls themselves? Would it be a good idea to put some neoprene rubber under at least 1 wall's bottom plate, or maybe both? I have a feeling I'm not understanding this decoupling/dampening thing properly but in theory it seems like a good idea since any noise vibration coming from one room could easily be transmitted to another room through the existing floor. I guess that if I was to add mass (a few layers of 3/4" MDF sandwiched in GG) to my existing sub-floor then use a rubber underlayment and some laminated flooring it would help solve that problem right?
i hope this makes sense :/ ... now going back to the interweb for more research..
Frank,
Great! :thu:I've decided to start using Sketchup so that I can best explain what I'm trying to do/build. I'll be posting some pictures as soon
And before you even get to consider your options, you first need to measure how loud you are, how quiet you need to be, and how much isolation you need. All of those in decibels.Before I start drafting plans of my walls/floors.etc I do have a few questions regarding decoupling and dampening. I've done some research but can't seem to get a clear answer on what are my best options.
It's fine as long as you realize that you won't get good isolation, unless you are willing to invest a lot of money. The room itself can be great, but it just won't be isolated very well.Once again I do understand that building a studio above a garage isn't the best option but it's all I have so I'm trying my best to do things right.
Yes, correct. You already have the garage, so you already have one of the stud walls. You only need to add the second one. You will build a stud frame that does NOT touch any part of the existing building, except the floor. And you will put drywall on only ONE side of that frame.Question 1) I'll def be using the double stud wall concept...this is what makes my walls/rooms decoupled from each other correct?
Yes. It is the weak link in two different aspects: 1) isolation. 2) Structural integrity. The second one is a big issue, because there is a limit to how much extra load you can place on that floor before it collapses. So you will need to get a qualified structural engineer in to look at that floor, tell you what the maximum live load and dead load are, how much live load and dead load it is supporting right now, and therefore how much extra load you can put on it. That translates into how much total mass (weight) you can add, which defines the maximum isolation you can get. The fist issue above, is also about isolation, but this time it is the isolation that the floor itself provides. It is a single-leaf, and therefor is governed by Mass Law, which isn't very helpful. That implies that your maximum isolation is limited by the floor, regardless of how much extra load it can handle.Question 2) I'm framing these double walls on an existing wooden sub-floor (over my garage), it's obvious that my weakest link here is my wooden floor correct?
It would be nice, but you can't. All the walls will be resting on, and firmly attached to, the same floor.Question 3) Framing walls directly on top of the sub-floor I'm wondering if I need to do anything special to help/address flanking from one room to another through the floor.
Only if the structural engineer says that you can! :) And even then, adding mass to a single leaf floor does not help much. You have to DOUBLE the mass to get a measly increase of 4 or 5 dB.I understand that I can add mass to my floor
It might help a little, but not a huge amount. And you'd have to take great care to ensure that the wall really does float. Lots of math involved in that!what about the walls themselves? Would it be a good idea to put some neoprene rubber under at least 1 wall's bottom plate, or maybe both?
Yes, and it would ALSO be transmitted through the floor directly, regardless of what the walls do! The sound inside the room hits ALL of the boundary surfaces of the room: the walls, the ceiling, and the floor. Since the sound will be getting into the floor like that anyway, and thus into the adjacent rooms, there's not much point in trying to prevent the sound from getting into the walls and taking a longer path, when it already go there in any case!I have a feeling I'm not understanding this decoupling/dampening thing properly but in theory it seems like a good idea since any noise vibration coming from one room could easily be transmitted to another room through the existing floor.
... then it would probably collapse! 3/4" MDF weighs roughly three pounds per square foot. Let's say you added 5 layers of that, it would be 15 PSF. Let's say your floor measures 26' by 28' feet, which is 728 square feet. at 15 PSF, that implies a load of roughly eleven thousand pounds! That approximately the weight of half a dozen Smart cars, or three mid-size cars AND a compact car, or two full-size SUV's, or a box truck fully loaded with fuel, cargo and passengers! Do you really think your floor would be able to hold that? Would you be happy parking several cars or a loaded truck on that floor, then standing under it, in the room below? :)I guess that if I was to add mass (a few layers of 3/4" MDF sandwiched in GG) to my existing sub-floor
Nope, not really. It would still be a single-leaf floor, and it would already be so heavy that you would probably not be able to add any walls, ceiling, doors, windows, treatment, HVAC, furniture, or gear... - Stuart -then use a rubber underlayment and some laminated flooring it would help solve that problem right?
Once again Stuart, I'm very appreciative of your feedback. I'm going to make sure I follow the right path in doing things.
Ok! I will attempt at taking my own measurements but just to give a general idea I'm positive that drums are going to be the loudest thing in that studio. I'd say when I'm playing hard I'm probably peaking at around around 120dB (hard rim shots and cymbal crashing) but I would probably average it out at 110db. Obviously my kick drum and bass amps are going to be the hardest to isolate since they're in the low frequency range but that's fine. In terms of the isolation goals I guess the higher the possible with what I have to work with structurally. I'm on a 6 acres property out in the country and the nearest neighbor is about 500ft away so I don't really care so much about the noise I'd be making outside. The control room is where I want to be as isolated as possible (as most control rooms would I'd imagine?)as well as having reasonable isolation to the rest of the house. The studio is located above my garage and I have a 20ft mudroom section in between the garage and the rest of the house. So even thought the garage/studio is attached to the house...it is somewhat separated from the rest of the house (living room/bedrooms). I do realize that I won't be able to get great isolation because of the location of the studio but I'm wondering what would be possible and realistic to achieve with my current configuration. (without having to remortgage the house hehe). To be clear I am willing to spend some money on making things safe and adding additional support for a heavier floor, but realistically pouring 4-6" of concrete on my floor is not an option. hahaha. It would be great if I could get some sort of approx. level of isolation that I could achieve.You first need to measure how loud you are, how quiet you need to be, and how much isolation you need. All of those in decibels.
Yep! I get that part. I am willing to invest a decent/reasonable amount of money since most of the labor will be done by myself.It's fine as long as you realize that you won't get good isolation, unless you are willing to invest a lot of money. The room itself can be great, but it just won't be isolated very well.
That part I understand!You already have the garage, so you already have one of the stud walls. You only need to add the second one. You will build a stud frame that does NOT touch any part of the existing building, except the floor. And you will put drywall on only ONE side of that frame.
Understood! Since I was heavily involved with the construction of my house I know a lot of the details already but before I list the specs I will say that I'm working with a structural engineer to determine my options in terms of adding additional support to potentially support extra mass. Based on this http://www.openjoisttriforce.com/documentation/commercial-publication-us.pdf My current studio floor is composed of the following: OJ418 Series Open Joists - 14" high..span is approx 26' and joists are spaced at 16" OC with a glued 5/8 sub-floor on top. (USA - L/480, Glued and nailed, LL: 40 psf, DL: 15 psf) Maximum Allowed Unfactored Live Load for this particular floor: 48 PSFFloor is the weak link in two different aspects: 1) isolation. 2) Structural integrity. The second one is a big issue, because there is a limit to how much extra load you can place on that floor before it collapses. So you will need to get a qualified structural engineer in to look at that floor, tell you what the maximum live load and dead load are, how much live load and dead load it is supporting right now, and therefore how much extra load you can put on it. That translates into how much total mass (weight) you can add, which defines the maximum isolation you can get. The fist issue above, is also about isolation, but this time it is the isolation that the floor itself provides. It is a single-leaf, and therefor is governed by Mass Law, which isn't very helpful. That implies that your maximum isolation is limited by the floor, regardless of how much extra load it can handle.
Ok!It would be nice, but you can't. All the walls will be resting on, and firmly attached to, the same floor.
Well that sucks haha! I'm confused...I thought having a sub-floor on top and dry wall on the other side make the floor a double leaf?Only if the structural engineer says that you can! :) And even then, adding mass to a single leaf floor does not help much. You have to DOUBLE the mass to get a measly increase of 4 or 5 dB.
Every little bit helps I guess. I started putting together a spreadsheet of the total weight of each walls so that I can properly calculate and compare with the product specs. I do have a lot of that Iso-Sill product at home already so if it can be used then great. I was going to use it for my home theater in my basement but can always order more.It might help a little, but not a huge amount. And you'd have to take great care to ensure that the wall really does float. Lots of math involved in that!
Right!Yes, and it would ALSO be transmitted through the floor directly, regardless of what the walls do! The sound inside the room hits ALL of the boundary surfaces of the room: the walls, the ceiling, and the floor. Since the sound will be getting into the floor like that anyway, and thus into the adjacent rooms, there's not much point in trying to prevent the sound from getting into the walls and taking a longer path, when it already go there in any case!
Ok i wasn't thinking 5 layers, more like 2 if the structure can safely take it, but I do understand your point...I need to make sure my floor can safely take whatever I end up putting on top of it. :) I think from the specs of my floor I can do max DL of 15PSF...I'll get confirmation of all this from the engineer. The floor currently doesn't support anything...it's just one big blank unfinished room.... then it would probably collapse! 3/4" MDF weighs roughly three pounds per square foot. Let's say you added 5 layers of that, it would be 15 PSF. Let's say your floor measures 26' by 28' feet, which is 728 square feet. at 15 PSF, that implies a load of roughly eleven thousand pounds! That approximately the weight of half a dozen Smart cars, or three mid-size cars AND a compact car, or two full-size SUV's, or a box truck fully loaded with fuel, cargo and passengers! Do you really think your floor would be able to hold that? Would you be happy parking several cars or a loaded truck on that floor, then standing under it, in the room below? :)
I guess I'll have a better idea of what my options are once I get the final numbers from my engineer. P.S. I'm doing good progress on Sketchup and I'm almost done with the current layout of the studio. :) Hope to be able to share some time next week. Again thanks for the feedback!Nope, not really. It would still be a single-leaf floor, and it would already be so heavy that you would probably not be able to add any walls, ceiling, doors, windows, treatment, HVAC, furniture, or gear...
Cool! That's good news. :thu:I'm going to make sure I follow the right path in doing things.
Right. That's all correct, and realistic. When you do measure, make sure that you use a good quality hand-held sound level meter, and set it to "C" and "Slow". But your estimates are about right, for sure.I'm positive that drums are going to be the loudest thing in that studio. I'd say when I'm playing hard I'm probably peaking at around around 120dB (hard rim shots and cymbal crashing) but I would probably average it out at 110db. Obviously my kick drum and bass amps are going to be the hardest to isolate since they're in the low frequency range
Unfortunately, it's all the same thing. Different aspects, but still the same. Consider this paradox: If it were possible to have fantastic isolation between the LR and CR, but poor isolation between either of those rooms and the outside world, apart from needing Harry Potter and his magical crew to achieve that, you'd have the impossible situation where a loud noise could leave the poorly isolated LR and arrive in the outside world, yet it would magically not be allowed to get into the poorly isolated CR... :shock: 8) :roll: Ummm.... Ain't gonna happen! If you need good isolation between rooms, then you also need good isolation between the rooms and the outside world. It's a package deal. It would be sort of possible to have the opposite situation: Poor isolation between rooms, but good isolation to the outside world... however, I'm not sure why anybody would want that, and it would be expensive! :) So whatever number you come up with for your total isolation, will be roughly the same between rooms as it is between either room and the outside world.I don't really care so much about the noise I'd be making outside. The control room is where I want to be as isolated as possible
You'd have to do all the math to be sure, but 40 dB isolation is probably realistic (about twice as good as a typical house wall, subjectively), and maybe 50 dB if all the planets happen to align on a sunny day with the wind blowing in the right direction and the moon at exact right angles and a unicorn walks through your studio at the same time, while pixies are sprinkling dust on the walls.... :)I do realize that I won't be able to get great isolation because of the location of the studio but I'm wondering what would be possible and realistic to achieve with my current configuration.
I'll get back to that point shortly, so do hold on to it, mentally!To be clear I am willing to spend some money on making things safe and adding additional support for a heavier floor, but realistically pouring 4-6" of concrete on my floor is not an option. hahaha.
OK, that's reasonable but not fantastic. You'll be taking up a large chunk of that with a load that's actually dead load (new walls, ceiling, treatment, etc), but your engineer will probably tell you that this is fine, as long as you then take great care to monitor your REAL live load, as you add furniture, people, gear instruments, and also take into account possible wind loading and other true "live" loads...Maximum Allowed Unfactored Live Load for this particular floor: 48 PSF
That would be a coupled two-leaf system, not a true MSM system. It acts more like a single leaf than it does like a two-leaf, although it does have some characteristics of both.Well that sucks haha! I'm confused...I thought having a sub-floor on top and dry wall on the other side make the floor a double leaf?
OK, here's where we get back to the "6" concrete slab" comment I promised you above. And this is the part that you won't like too much.... it's also the part that the purveyors of "plywood deck floated on our magic rubber pucks" don't tell you. Here's how it goes... Here's a graph that explains the problem in simple terms: That shows how much mass you need on your floor, and how much air gap you need under it, to get the right resonant frequency. What I mean by "right resonant frequency" is simply the one that will allow your floor to actually isolate! Your floor is a resonant system. It will resonate naturally at a certain frequency that is governed by the mass (weight) of the final floor, and the depth of the air cavity under it. At that frequency, and for one octave above it, the floor will NOT isolate. In fact, not only does it not isolate, it can potentially amplify sounds at that frequency. And because this problem extends to one octave higher, obviously you want your floor's resonant frequency to be at least one octave lower than the lowest frequency you need to isolate. So if you need to isolate kick drums, which are often tuned around 80 Hz, then your floor should be tuned no higher than 40 Hz, which is one octave lower. If you want to isolate bass guitar, which easily goes down to 36 Hz (5 string bass), then you'd need to tune your floor no higher than 18 Hz. Let's assume this is the case, and now we can look at the graph. The graph shows the frequency up the left hand side. You need something at 18 Hz, so draw an imaginary line across the graph a bit less than 20 Hz. You can now see that no matter how deep your air cavity is, the top two dashed lines are no use: you can never get a low enough frequency if your floor only weighs 5 PSF (pound per square foot) or 10 PSF. Not possible. However, at 30 PSF it is possible (the dotted line, third from the top): it looks like you would need to have an air cavity that is at least 4.5 inches deep, so you can't do it with 2x4's, as they are only 3.5" deep. You'll need to use 2x6's (which are 5.5" deep). Your other option is to go with an even heavier floor: the bottom curve on the graph, labeled 60 psf (solid line, not dashed). With that option, you can get a frequency of 18 Hz. with a cavity about 2" deep, so you could use 2x4s there. So those are your options: you can build up your floating floor on 2x4s with a 60 PSF floor, or 2x6s with a 30 PSF floor. So that brings up the question: What would you need to do, to get a 60 PSF floor? Well, let's consider OSB: the density of OSB is roughly 610 kg/m3, which works out to about 3.2 PSF for every inch of thickness. So to get 60 PSF using OSB board, you'd need to make it about 19 inches thick! :shock: In other words, you'd need to have 31 layers of 5/8" OSB on your floor, to get enough mass. :!: But if you wanted to go with the 30 PSF option, you'd "only" need 16 layers of OSB to get there.... As you can see, it is physically impossible to float a light-weight deck consisting of just a couple of sheets of OSB on 2x4 studs. If you did that, the resonant frequency would be around 42 Hz, so the floor would amplify kicks, toms, bass guitar, electric guitar, and keyboards! It would only isolate from about 84 Hz upwards. So how do you get such a high mass? If you can't do it with OSB, then what do you need? Simple: Concrete. The density of concrete is around 2400 kg/m3, which is roughly 12 PSF for each inch of thickness. So a concrete slab just 3 inches thick (36 PSF) would let you do it with a 3.5" cavity, and if you went up to 5" thick concrete slab, you could do it on a 1.5" air cavity. That's the plain, hard, cold facts. You cannot float a light-weight deck and expect to get good isolation for low frequencies. The laws of physics prevent it. Now, all of the above assumes that the "deck" is fully isolated from the underlying subfloor, and that the only "spring" in there, is the air in the cavity. In real life, that is not possible: you need some type of resilient mounting to decouple the deck and hold up the floor! It might be rubber pads, or metal springs, or something else, but there has to be something that disconnects the deck from the subfloor, mechanically. Which makes things worse! That rubber or metal spring works in parallel with the air spring, and that REDUCES the total "springiness". So you actually need a deeper cavity to get the same frequency... Now for the kicker that really dooms this whole light-weight deck concept: Whatever it is that you use as the spring to decouple the deck (rubber, metal springs, snake oil), you have to ensure that it will will float! If you put too much weight on a spring, then you flatten it out completely, and it is not "springy" any more: it bottoms out, and does not float. On the other hand, if you don't put enough weight on it, it is also not "springy"! It "tops out" and does not float. So you have to ensure that you put the right amount of weight on each spring, such that it has the optimal amount of compression, and really does float. For each type of spring, there are tables and equations that allow you to do that, but for most springs, you need to compress it about 10 to 25% to make it "float". Less that 10% "tops out" and more than 25% "bottoms out" (the actual numbers vary widely, per product). Great So let's go back to the light-weight deck (pretending that the above graph does not exist, and imagining that it might be possible to magically get the right frequency with just two layers of OSB). We already know that two layers of OSB weighs about 6 pounds per square foot, so let's say we do some calculations for magical rubber pads, made of purest snake oil and pixie dust, and arrive at the conclusion that we need four pads of two square inches each for every square foot of floor, and with a load of 6 PSF, that will float just fine, with exactly 15% compression. Great! Amazing! The floor floats! ... Until you stand on it.... :shock: Assuming you weigh about 180 pounds, and that your weight will be spread across four square feet of floor, just by stepping on that floor you increase the loading from 6 PSF to 51 PSF :shock: Gulp! I think you see where this is going.... You just flattened your rubber pads into oblivion! They are now squashed flat, and don't float. So you think creatively, and decide that you don't need the floor to float when you are not in the room, it only has to float when you ARE in there, so you re-design it to float when the load is 51 PSF. Fantastic! Wonderful! It floats! .... until you bring in your guitar, amp, a couple of pizzas and a crate of beer... now the load is 65 PSF, and the floor doesn't float.... So you wrack your brains, and re-design the rubber pads yet again, so they float at 65 PSF.... But then you invite your buddy over to join you for a jamming session, and he brings his girlfriend, another amp, more pizza, and a suitcase, since he's going to stay the night.... and now you have a load of 90 PSF.... OK, so I'm exaggerating a bit here, but I can keep on adding scenarios here, such as the desk, chair, couch, your DAW, other gear, etc. etc., ... however, you can see the problem: The load on a light-weight deck varies so enormously that it just is not practical. But with a concrete deck, that has a much, much higher density, this is not a problem. Putting all that extra load on the floor, or taking it off, only changes the total mass by a few percent, and the floor still floats: the springs are still inside their optimal range. So that's the issue. Floating a light-weight floor is not a viable solution. You need huge mass to float a floor successfully. It is certainly possible to float a floor, and companies like Mason Industries make devices to do that, but it only works with very high mass for the floor deck, such as 3 or 4 inches of solid concrete. There's another option here, which is even better: build your inner-leaf walls on top of the floor! In that case, the entire room is floated. The calculations for the springs are a bit more complicated like that, but the total floated mass is even greater, so variations from people standing on the floor and moving gear in and out are even lower, as a percentage of the total floated mass. That's a lot more expensive, of course, and more complex, but if you really do have a need for extra high isolation, that's as good as it gets. However, you'd have to do a lot of math here (which you are already doing! :thu: ) and get your engineer to check it all over to make sure that you'll be within the limits of your floor structure. You might even want to consider "beefing up" your floor structure with additional joists in between the existing ones, or sistered to them, to get you more capacity, and therefore more isolation.Ok i wasn't thinking 5 layers, more like 2 if the structure can safely take it, but I do understand your point...I need to make sure my floor can safely take whatever I end up putting on top of it. ... I think from the specs of my floor I can do max DL of 15PSF...I'll get confirmation of all this from the engineer. The floor currently doesn't support anything...it's just one big blank unfinished room.
:thu:I guess I'll have a better idea of what my options are once I get the final numbers from my engineer.
Hint: You need to know the Three Magic Chants that you need to repeat over and over with SketchUp to make it work: "Select geometry, Make Component", then "Entity info - Assign to layer", and "Add new scene". These incantations have to be chanted repeatedly at the dead of night while hunched over a steaming hot keyboard, with your glaring-red eyes blurrily gazing unseeingly in the approximate direction of the dimly glowing screen, and the syllables must be muttered softly in an incoherent flat monotone in the key of F#, as your fingers numbly poke at worn-out keys, and you grate the mouse unfeelingly over the same deeply etched time-worn path in the surface of your desk.... :) Repeat, night after night, endlessly, for centuries, and your wish may eventually be granted.... :) :wink: - Stuart -I'm doing good progress on Sketchup and I'm almost done with the current layout of the studio.
Yeah i guess I was expecting that...it only makes sense.Unfortunately, it's all the same thing. Different aspects, but still the same. Consider this paradox: If it were possible to have fantastic isolation between the LR and CR, but poor isolation between either of those rooms and the outside world, apart from needing Harry Potter and his magical crew to achieve that, you'd have the impossible situation where a loud noise could leave the poorly isolated LR and arrive in the outside world, yet it would magically not be allowed to get into the poorly isolated CR... :shock: 8) :roll: Ummm.... Ain't gonna happen! If you need good isolation between rooms, then you also need good isolation between the rooms and the outside world. It's a package deal. It would be sort of possible to have the opposite situation: Poor isolation between rooms, but good isolation to the outside world... however, I'm not sure why anybody would want that, and it would be expensive! :) So whatever number you come up with for your total isolation, will be roughly the same between rooms as it is between either room and the outside world.
I see 40dB as a decent number for what I'm trying to achieve. There won't always be loud drum playing. It's going to be mostly acoustic and electric guitar, along with some bass but overall the level can be kept to a reasonable level and def lower than 100dB. The times where drums and really loud playing can be managed. I'm going to keep the 50dB number as a gift from the heavens where pixie dust unicorns haha.You'd have to do all the math to be sure, but 40 dB isolation is probably realistic (about twice as good as a typical house wall, subjectively), and maybe 50 dB if all the planets happen to align on a sunny day with the wind blowing in the right direction and the moon at exact right angles and a unicorn walks through your studio at the same time, while pixies are sprinkling dust on the walls.... :)
Ok so I got some numbers back from the guy who did all my house plans. The actual number is LL 40 PSF and DL 15 PSF. This is not good news but it's still manageable to accomplish something decent I think. The architect is working on giving me a few options in terms of adding structural support and said he would suggest from isolation options as well. That last part I'm not too sure about since I'm positive this guy has never built a recording studio on top of a garage haha so I'll take his advice on the second part with a grain of salt. He did however agree that concrete is the most efficient way to isolate. :)RE: Max Live Load.....OK, that's reasonable but not fantastic. You'll be taking up a large chunk of that with a load that's actually dead load (new walls, ceiling, treatment, etc), but your engineer will probably tell you that this is fine, as long as you then take great care to monitor your REAL live load, as you add furniture, people, gear instruments, and also take into account possible wind loading and other true "live" loads...
Right!! Ok that makes more sense...I wasn't taking the true MSM into the mix but yeah I got a bit confused. All good now!That would be a coupled two-leaf system, not a true MSM system. It acts more like a single leaf than it does like a two-leaf, although it does have some characteristics of both.
That's an awesome way to explain and understand! I knew in the back of my mind that concrete was going to come back to hunt me so I can't lie and say that I didn't expect it haha. I've taken the steps already to start figuring out the MAX amount of concrete I can pour in that room with minimal added bracing & support.OK, here's where we get back to the "6" concrete slab" comment I promised you above. And this is the part that you won't like too much.... it's also the part that the purveyors of "plywood deck floated on our magic rubber pucks" don't tell you. Here's how it goes... Here's a graph that explains the problem in simple terms:
Right!! I'm thinking that tuning the floor anything below 40 Hz would be a bonus. I think the odd times where a bass would be played loud can also be managed. This all makes a lot more sense to me though. This stuff is gold! :)So if you need to isolate kick drums, which are often tuned around 80 Hz, then your floor should be tuned no higher than 40 Hz, which is one octave lower. If you want to isolate bass guitar, which easily goes down to 36 Hz (5 string bass), then you'd need to tune your floor no higher than 18 Hz. Let's assume this is the case, and now we can look at the graph.
Ok! So I'm thinking if I'm able to do 2.5" of concrete, that could give me around 30 PSF and even at 20 Hz I could float a floor on 2x4s no?The graph shows the frequency up the left hand side. You need something at 18 Hz, so draw an imaginary line across the graph a bit less than 20 Hz. You can now see that no matter how deep your air cavity is, the top two dashed lines are no use: you can never get a low enough frequency if your floor only weighs 5 PSF (pound per square foot) or 10 PSF. Not possible. However, at 30 PSF it is possible (the dotted line, third from the top): it looks like you would need to have an air cavity that is at least 4.5 inches deep, so you can't do it with 2x4's, as they are only 3.5" deep. You'll need to use 2x6's (which are 5.5" deep). Your other option is to go with an even heavier floor: the bottom curve on the graph, labeled 60 psf (solid line, not dashed). With that option, you can get a frequency of 18 Hz. with a cavity about 2" deep, so you could use 2x4s there.
I'm a little confused about the first option proposed. Do you mean just a floating floor for each individual room and walls beside the floor? I for sure understand that having all the walls on top of the floating floor would be ideal but is it really worth it vs floating the walls on the original sub-floor? the only reason I say this is because I framed a couple of walls to get a sense of the actual room sizes. They have only been temporarily fastened there and can easily be removed and disassembled but if it's not a big deal it would be great to leave them there. Again if it makes such a big difference then I'll adjust the walls to sit on top of the floating floor. This also gets me thinking. Could I potentially pour individual slabs for each room instead of one big slab for the perimeter of the entire studio?So that's the issue. Floating a light-weight floor is not a viable solution. You need huge mass to float a floor successfully. It is certainly possible to float a floor, and companies like Mason Industries make devices to do that, but it only works with very high mass for the floor deck, such as 3 or 4 inches of solid concrete. There's another option here, which is even better: build your inner-leaf walls on top of the floor! In that case, the entire room is floated. The calculations for the springs are a bit more complicated like that, but the total floated mass is even greater, so variations from people standing on the floor and moving gear in and out are even lower, as a percentage of the total floated mass. That's a lot more expensive, of course, and more complex, but if you really do have a need for extra high isolation, that's as good as it gets.
Yep! I'll be waiting on the options from my architecture (who deals with a particular engineer) and will post them once I hear back from them. Should be within the next week or so. That being said, I will take this time to work on some music until I can get back into planning mode before I start doing some more work.However, you'd have to do a lot of math here (which you are already doing! :thu: ) and get your engineer to check it all over to make sure that you'll be within the limits of your floor structure. You might even want to consider "beefing up" your floor structure with additional joists in between the existing ones, or sistered to them, to get you more capacity, and therefore more isolation.
Hahaha it was one of the first things I learned in there. Create group and Create component are a pretty common thing lol. It's starting to look good. I've got my HVAC main trunk on there so I can start laying out where I can install the take-offs for the silencers and all that stuff. It's coming along...still hoping to post it up soon. Cheers!Hint: You need to know the Three Magic Chants that you need to repeat over and over with SketchUp to make it work: "Select geometry, Make Component", then "Entity info - Assign to layer", and "Add new scene". These incantations have to be chanted repeatedly at the dead of night while hunched over a steaming hot keyboard, with your glaring-red eyes blurrily gazing unseeingly in the approximate direction of the dimly glowing screen, and the syllables must be muttered softly in an incoherent flat monotone in the key of F#, as your fingers numbly poke at worn-out keys, and you grate the mouse unfeelingly over the same deeply etched time-worn path in the surface of your desk.... :) Repeat, night after night, endlessly, for centuries, and your wish may eventually be granted.... :) :wink:
:thu: :) Architects actually do get a bit of theoretical acoustics during their studies... maybe a dozen hours or so! ( :roll: 8) ) ... and most of that is on architectural acoustics.... The amount of time they get on specifically designing recording studios, is probably somewhere between zero and nothing, but it might even be as high as zip, or even nada! It might even be Zilch! :)this guy has never built a recording studio on top of a garage haha so I'll take his advice on the second part with a grain of salt.
Cool! Glad you agree! John and I do happily also accept donations in gold... preferably in the form of small ingots or large coins... :) :shot:This stuff is gold!
Theoretically, yes... borderline, but yes. But you don't actually need 2x4's at all! You just need that size air cavity under your slab: 3.5" I just used 2x4's in the above diatribe so as to fit in with the fairy-tale spun by the "rubber puck" people, and show why their faeries are actually demons in disguise.... What you really need under your slab, is not demons or 2x4's, but proper springs and and air. The correct springs, of course! Not just any springs... Mason Industries is one of the companies that makes that type of spring. Two examples, different types of slab isolation spring: However, do take into account that your new slab is only one side of the equation: It's only one leaf of the 2-leaf MSM system. There needs to be another leaf down there too, with decent mass on it: Your existing floor is the other leaf. That one doesn't need to be concrete (although that sure would help!). But it does need to be substantial: At least three, maybe four layers of thick OSB or plywood. Perhaps with Green Glue in between, for good measure. And that floor also needs to have substantial support under it, as you need to lay out the isolation springs at certain points, so each of those points needs to be over a suitable structural base.Ok! So I'm thinking if I'm able to do 2.5" of concrete, that could give me around 30 PSF and even at 20 Hz I could float a floor on 2x4s no?
Right. That's the option for situations where you can't put the walls on the slab, for whatever reason. Of course, it's better if you CAN do that, by far, but sometimes you can't.Do you mean just a floating floor for each individual room and walls beside the floor?
You certainly can, yes! And that would give you the highest possible isolation, since each room would be floated independently.This also gets me thinking. Could I potentially pour individual slabs for each room instead of one big slab for the perimeter of the entire studio?
I would also suggest that you talk to the guys at Mason Industries, or one of their competitors, to find out what they think. They make the springs that you need to float your slab. They can do all the calculations for you, and tell you what you'll need in your base structure, how many springs you'll need, what type, where to put them, etc. - Stuart -Yep! I'll be waiting on the options from my architecture (who deals with a particular engineer) and will post them once I hear back from them.
haha That's pretty much what I was thinking!Architects actually do get a bit of theoretical acoustics during their studies... maybe a dozen hours or so! ( :roll: 8) ) ... and most of that is on architectural acoustics.... The amount of time they get on specifically designing recording studios, is probably somewhere between zero and nothing, but it might even be as high as zip, or even nada! It might even be Zilch! :)
If I have any gold coins left after my build I'll make sure to send some over. :PCool! Glad you agree! John and I do happily also accept donations in gold... preferably in the form of small ingots or large coins...
Ok, I wasn't understanding all this properly but now I get it. After looking at the spring options...I understand how they work and raise the slab. Very very cool stuff!! My only problem now is that after checking the specs off the Mason website...they require a slab with a minimum thickness of 3" so that's both good and bad for me I guess. This leads me to a question...I think I know the answer but I'll ask anyways. I will do everything i can to float a concrete slab properly but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on light-weight concrete. Since I'm trying to keep the total weight down as best I can..could I potentially use 4" of light-weight concrete to replace say 2" of the regular/commonly used stuff? From what I'm reading the regular stuff is approx 12.5 PSF per 1" and the light-weight stuff is approx 8 PSF per 1". I could get an approx. 32PSF with 4" of light-weight vs 37.5PSF with 3" of the regular stuff. I think I might as well aim for 3" of the regular stuff.Theoretically, yes... borderline, but yes. But you don't actually need 2x4's at all! You just need that size air cavity under your slab: 3.5" I just used 2x4's in the above diatribe so as to fit in with the fairy-tale spun by the "rubber puck" people, and show why their faeries are actually demons in disguise.... What you really need under your slab, is not demons or 2x4's, but proper springs and and air. The correct springs, of course! Not just any springs... Mason Industries is one of the companies that makes that type of spring.
Ok, if it's better...I'll just put my walls on top of the new slab.Right. That's the option for situations where you can't put the walls on the slab, for whatever reason. Of course, it's better if you CAN do that, by far, but sometimes you can't.
This is great because it will bring the total weight down a bit since I won't have to pour anything in between the rooms. Plus it would be easier for me to pour one room at a time.You certainly can, yes! And that would give you the highest possible isolation, since each room would be floated independently.
Will do!! I've already started looking at all their options and they make some really cool things. I guess my biggest concern now is to see what's needed to get all that extra weight supported under my floor. I'm curious to see what has to be done to support that new super massive dead load. I'm having a hard time figuring out my dead load requirement based on all this extra weight. One thing for sure is that it'll be heavy...very very heavy. I've started working on a different sketchup model that shows the new floor structure with a floating slab. I'll try and upload everything together soon.I would also suggest that you talk to the guys at Mason Industries, or one of their competitors, to find out what they think. They make the springs that you need to float your slab. They can do all the calculations for you, and tell you what you'll need in your base structure, how many springs you'll need, what type, where to put them, etc.