Hangers for control room design - Suggestions

Hello from Italy . Here is my plan for the control room in my house. Room dimensions: W: 5.20 L. 3.30 H. 320 and it's made by solid tuff brick. Superchunk it's a rockwool 225 - 7cm (75kg/m). I still have to design and build the hangers, the ceiling and the basstrap for the wall. After I'll think about the door construction. My questions is : 1. hangers placement make sense? 2. I think to lower the ceiling ( 50 cm framing with 7 cm of fiberglass) only for the half of the room space.It' a good idea? 3. Worth narrow left and right walls to improve the response of the room? I have attached the sktechup file and a pic of the room and the room mode. Thanks mode 1 32.98 Hz C1 1-0-0 ax 2 51.97 Hz G1# 0-1-0 ax 3 53.59 Hz A1 0-0-1 ax 4 61.55 Hz B1 1-1-0 tan 5 62.93 Hz B1 1-0-1 tan 6 65.96 Hz C2 2-0-0 ax

Another question is about fiberglass tickess for the hangers. Can someone help me?

Is there anybody out there?

FYI - There's a whole thread here... viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12365 Scott

Hi Scott, thanks for the answer. Very interesting, but I still have not figured out if the hangers in my design can works well! I have that space measuring 53 cm that I'd use to place hanhers. What do you think about it?

The hangars I built didn't have as much of an impact, as I hoped thy would have. I am not saying, they are bad, but IMO simple porous absorption is way easier to achieve and to predict. The area in the back (or front?) of your room is perfect for just filling it with 50cm of light insulation (e.g. Sonorock). The way you orientated the hangars is wrong anyway, so you would need to angle them, loosing more space. Go with insulation. But before you will need to plan other things: Your room has a lot of problems. One is asymmetry of the left and right wall. Another is the almost equal height and width (at least in parts of the room). If this is the room you have, I would first decide the orientation of the speakers and your seating position, take multiple measurements with REW to adjust and confirm the best possible orientation (with the least SBIR-problems) and plan the porous absorption roughly. That would be as much basstrapping as possible (corners, back and front of the room), a big ceiling cloud and broadband absorbers to your left and right. Since you don't build a new symmetry in the room with new hard surfaces, you need to reduce the early reflections. You can go for a very thick ceiling cloud, that will also improve the bass response (again, filled with light insulation). This way, you plan in the right order. Starting with absorbers before you ever took a measurement is wrong. Your modal problems will not be exactly as calculated, as your room is not a perfect cube and the entrance door is glass, if I see that right. So, REW will tell you, what the problems really are. Setting up speakers and microphone takes some time, but is totally worth it! Also, you will be able to compare each step of absorption you take to the empty room.

Hi , thanks for the answer! Here is a plan :D You said 50cmRockwool should work well?

Be careful with those statements, because it really matters, what kind of rockwool you choose. i am not an expert on that, but thick absorbers need a lower gas flow resistance ("Längenbezogener Strömungswiderstand" in german) in order to work well for bass frequencies. Sadly, Rockwool has different products with different names in every country around the world! In Germany Sonrock is perfect for this kind of task: http://www.rockwool.de/produkte/u/1616/ ... u/sonorock You can look for any rock wool with 5000 - 6000 Pa ∙ s/m². That will work well. Also, IMO the sonorock 10cm deep sheets are pretty good to work with (ok to cut and they have a good stability, so you have to do less work to attach them. They are also quite cheap, if you look for a good offer. But please stick with my initial and most important hint: figure out how to use REW, experiment with the position of your speakers and seating position (measuring and listening) a lot and give more detailed informations about that here. This is the most important stuff and you should start with it. Then, smoothing out the bass response with rock wool is the easier part, it is just a lot of work ... And don't forget: The biggest problem might be your ceiling height - room width - ratio! And just generally: The ceiling cloud might be at least as important, as bass absorption in the front and back of the room. If you are wondering, why you don't get a lot of replies: The experts (I am not one of them!!!) probably expect you to put more work onto learning the basics (maybe reading a book) and investing some time in measuring. They just know, with your attitude (just start building some absorbers and see how it goes) you won't get far, anyway. Believe me! I made the same mistakes myself! :-)

Ok, thanks

Is the last picture the wall, where you want to put your monitors?

Yes, it is! I'd like to build a bass trap and a wall broadband in the space where you said to put insulation. What do you think about that way to do it?

Not good. Why only a thin sheet of insulation, while you can fill all of those 50cm with light insulation? Works better with bass frequencies. The slot wall doesn't make sense in that space either. It will cause direct reflections of your monitors. You want to prevent that. Just porous absorption being cloth (maybe very thin plastic to keep it dust free). And that goes for all absorbers around your seating position (left, right and front wall). But first: Do some REW measurement.

Sorry, I realize that I was unclear , here is a plant of the current situation . Cheers

I need help for the empty space you can see. I ordered a measurement microphone , meanwhile I create the plan. Before your advice , I 'm go with the hunghers, cheeper and easy to build.

Current situation? That means you already built that?

Plan situation.

Hi there "aparolin", and welcome! :)

1. hangers placement make sense?

If that is teh BACK wall of the room, then yes. But if that is the FRONT wall of the room, then no.

2. I think to lower the ceiling ( 50 cm framing with 7 cm of fiberglass) only for the half of the room space.It' a good idea?

Fiberglass does not change the height of the ceiling. If you have a ceiling height of 320 cm, and you put 50 cm of fiberglass below that, then the acoustic ceiling height is still 320cm. It's a good idea to put some absorption on the ceiling at the front of the room, but the best way to do that is with a "cloud".

Room dimensions: W: 5.20 L. 3.30 H. 320

Those are not good dimensions. You can see the problems on the screenshot you show with Andy's calculator. The height is almost exactly the same as the width, and the room is very long. compared to the width and height. I would lower the entire ceiling a bit and make the room a bit shorter. L=465, W=330, H=280 would be about as good as you can get it, without sacrificing too much volume. If you do an RFZ design, that would also help to break up the modal response a bit, and I would also make your ceiling cloud "hard backed", and angled quite a bit.

3. Worth narrow left and right walls to improve the response of the room?

No! Your room is already too narrow for the length and height: Do not change the width: Leave it at 330cm. Change only the length, reducing it to about 465cm, and the height, reducing it to about 280 cm. Try those dimensions on Andy's calculator, and you'll see the difference.

I have that space measuring 53 cm that I'd use to place hanhers.

I have done hangers on 50cm of space for a small control room before, and they do work, but as FriFlo mentioned, they have to be angled, not straight, and they have to be placed correctly at the modal nodes of the room width. It would be better to have more depth, though. 53 cm will work, but not as much as having deeper hangers. As FriFlo also mentioned, you have many other problems with that room that need fixing: it is not going to work well like it is. Everything he mentioned is very important. I also agree that it would not be good to put a slot wall at the rear of the room. Or at least, not a tuned slotwall. You could have some wood slats across it, but with very wide gaps between them, and not at any position where it would cause spectral reflections from your speakers at high frequencies.

here is a plant of the current situation

That's better, but if you are going to do that shape at the front of the room, I would suggest that you should soffit-mount your speakers properly. Also, do not use a desk like that, with big boxes sticking up from the surface. Those will cause problems, acoustically... - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, thanks for your help!

Those are not good dimensions. You can see the problems on the screenshot you show with Andy's calculator. The height is almost exactly the same as the width, and the room is very long. compared to the width and height. I would lower the entire ceiling a bit and make the room a bit shorter. L=465, W=330, H=280 would be about as good as you can get it, without sacrificing too much volume.

How can I do? Can I use a 12mm plasterboard mount on a wood frame?

It's a good idea to put some absorption on the ceiling at the front of the room, but the best way to do that is with a "cloud".

after lower the ceiling I need to buil a cloud or I just put insulation in the frame and cover it with cloth?

Also, do not use a desk like that, with big boxes sticking up from the surface. Those will cause problems, acoustically...

so..Better my hold and simple flat desk?

Unfortunately,, I'm in rent with my home...What's about this? Lower only the part of cieling of RFZ with a 20 mm plasterbord leaf, can help?

aparolin wrote:

Hi Stuart, thanks for your help!

Those are not good dimensions. You can see the problems on the screenshot you show with Andy's calculator. The height is almost exactly the same as the width, and the room is very long. compared to the width and height. I would lower the entire ceiling a bit and make the room a bit shorter. L=465, W=330, H=280 would be about as good as you can get it, without sacrificing too much volume.

How can I do? Can I use a 12mm plasterboard mount on a wood frame?

It's a good idea to put some absorption on the ceiling at the front of the room, but the best way to do that is with a "cloud".

after lower the ceiling I need to buil a cloud or I just put insulation in the frame and cover it with cloth?

Also, do not use a desk like that, with big boxes sticking up from the surface. Those will cause problems, acoustically...

so..Better my hold and simple flat desk?

You are missing some important facts: 1) 12mm plasterboard is to thin and probably too light (depending on the type you choose). You should use 20mm thick boards at least and possibly another layer. 2) the way you constructed your ceiling is physically impossible. The gypsum boards need to be attached to a frame above - each one at all sides. 3) by only adding a hung ceiling to the fron of the room, you don't change the acoustic properties of the whole room. In order to have a calculatable modal response, you need a square shape. You room has an irregular shape. So, the calculations room modes are not necessarily true. You need to MEASURE it with REW, to see what is going on. You didn't say anything about your experience and the amount of money you can put into your design. But I assume, it won't be more than 3000€? Then my advice is this: - live with the fact, that you won't be able to really change the modal response of your room, as it will require you to lower the whole ceiling (to expensive and challenging for your expertise) - instead, tame the bass as much as possible: you have plenty of space on the ceiling to build a really deep absorbers there, plus the bass traps and front/back absorbers you can get a decent and dry bass response - as Stuart said: reflection-free zone (angled ceiling cloud, but bigger than yours and wall shape at your listening position) - flush mounting is quite a task, but could be done But , again: it is a mistake to assume, that you will post your designs here until someone says it is great! :-) You will have to learn from a book and by reading proven concepts in this forum. What kind of money you can spend and how much of the work you can actually do yourself is vital to what you can accomplish with this room. There are many possibilities to do in in different price ranges with different results, but only you yourself can figure that out for your room. Most people don't have the patience and money to do it properly. They often end up with just building some absorbers on the early reflection points, bass traps and a ceiling cloud (which in itself is also quite a lot of work). While a room like that is not perfect, it is certainly better then an untreated room when done properly! You strike me as the guy, who will end with that. Otherwise, you will need to put a lot of your time and more than the 3000€ in your room, or you let some professional do it and pay him. I hope, that gives you an idea how to not get stuck On a journey, that may take several years or turn out bad in spite of a lot of money spent. Again, I made these mistakes myself, even though at the time I started I didn't have enough money and experience. But it actually would have been better in retrospect to just learn for half a year and live for that time being with the untreated room. In that time you can also save more money to end up with a much better space ... What is your budget?

almost 3000€

That will be rather close ... With 3000€ (without calculating any costs for equipment, cables, etc) you could do some structural modifications, like drywall, wood, etc, but you are limited only by the material quite a lot, what you can do. My advice, if you want this to be good: Take about half a year (I assume you have to work or go to school as well) to learn acoustics and plan. Buy yourself a book, study designs here and ask questions. Step by step, plan your design and start building once it's finished and you have enough money, for what you planned. Also, learn some basics about building dry walls and wood working. You will also need quite a lot of tools, that also cost money! Actually, there is no way of learning the craftsmanship other, but by doing it. So you need to be realistic, what you can achieve with no level of experience. The truth is, you will never build anything as well as an experienced contractor, but I had to do everything myself as well, as work hours are the most expensive factor in Germany ....

I'm grateful for your suggestion, but I need to build my studio right now. I will wait Soundman answer.

Unfortunately,, I'm in rent with my home...

If y9ou rent your home, are you allowed to make modifications to the room? For example, can you take off the drywall from the existing walls? Can you take it off the ceiling to get access to the joists and trusses? Check your contract: there might be a prohibition about doing modifications like that, or hopefully there's just a clause that says you have to leave it in the same condition it was when you rented it. If you have that type of clause, then you are OK: you can build whatever you want, then just take that out and restore how it was originally if you leave. But if you have the prohibition to modify, then all you can do is build free-standing things inside the room, resting on the floor. What are the walls, floor and ceiling made of?

How can I do? Can I use a 12mm plasterboard mount on a wood frame?

YEs you can do a wood frame, but no not with 12mm plasterboard (drywall). As FriFlo mentioned, that is too thin and too flexible to be good acoustically. And as he also mentioned, you cannot just attach the plasterboard at the edges. You must have a full wood frame up there, with the right sized wood and proper dimensions to support the plasterboard safely.

after lower the ceiling I need to buil a cloud

That depends on how you build the ceiling! If you build it angled correctly, then you would not need a cloud. But to keep it simple, I would suggest that you just build the ceiling flat, then hang a cloud below it at an angle. Make the cloud "hard-backed" (with thick plywood or MDF on top), to help with first reflections and also modal problems.

.Better my hold and simple flat desk?

Yes, a simply flat desk is better. And cheaper! Get a desk that is as small as possible: big desks can cause acoustic problems. So get one that is only as big as you need. Also make sure it is very solid and rigid, and that it does not vibrate or resonate. Typical cheap light-weight desks are not good for this, as they rattle, vibrate, and resonate.

but I need to build my studio right now.

Better slow down a bit! Don't build it before you have a 100% workable design, including everything: isolation, HVAC, electrical, treatment, etc. And don't design it before you know how! If you don't have time to learn, then hire someone to design it for you! - Stuart -

If you have that type of clause, then you are OK

Ok, I can do that!

What are the walls, floor and ceiling made of?

Wall it's made tuff brick, floor it's tile with laminate parquet and ceiling I think perforated brick.

Es you can do a wood frame, but no not with 12mm plasterboard (drywall).

Oh man, I know this, I need a solid frame! :D 20 mm it's good ?

I would suggest that you just build the ceiling flat, then hang a cloud below it at an angle.

Ok, I like it! It's easier.

Make the cloud "hard-backed" (with thick plywood or MDF on top), to help with first reflections and also modal problems.

You mean I buid a solid binding around the cloud and cover it with a 20mm plywood, so I have a box where I can place insulation? I need to tilt it?how many degrees?

best way to do that is with a "cloud"

You mean the best way because the cloud is more efficient than to build a rockwool frame over the entire surface of the ceiling?

Better slow down a bit! Don't build it before you have a 100% workable design, including everything: isolation, HVAC, electrical, treatment, etc. And don't design it before you know how! If you don't have time to learn, then hire someone to design it for you!

Sure, I'm here to learn! You, FriFlo and the other guys are amazing people! Cheers