Hi Everyone,
Long time listener, first time caller. Can't thank you all enough for the wealth of information on this forum! In this post I’ll describe the space as it stands, then move onto our current design idea in the next. (Hope that’s OK! Thought it might keep things a bit clearer…)
I'm currently in the planning phase of my first studio build (ahh!) with a small indie record label here in Los Angeles. They've recently renewed a 25-year lease on their office building (of which they're the only occupants) and are expanding their current studio space into something more professional. The new studio will be mainly used for mixing/mastering of their releases, artist recording sessions, and audio post-production for video. I'll be the Studio Manager and am bringing over my existing clients and equipment for this joint effort.
We're hoping to begin de/construction in a week, and I've had several consultations with professional acousticians and studio builders over the past month. That being said, we have a small construction budget of about $10k MAX and I think we’ve learned the expensive things to avoid, and best ways to isolate the space for this budget. We're planning to grow as we go with equipment/acoustic treatment, but want to make a solid investment from the get-go to isolate as much as possible.
Our main goals for this project (in order of importance) are to:
1. Create a studio environment that is isolated and free of outside office noise coming into the space.
2. Create an accurate Control room for mixing, with an additional Live room for vocals, strings, percussion etc.
3. Ease the amount of bleed from the studio for other employees in the building.
I should point out that these other employees have dealt with lots of bleed coming from this space over the years. There are a lot of hip-hop artists working here daily, and the staff has learned to deal with constant thumping. Any relief of the bleed will be appreciated, but we’re trying to keep our expectations realistic with respect to our budget.
Regarding other neighbors… the space has never had a noise complaint with lots of loud stuff going on at all times of day/night. There’s about a foot of concrete between us and the nearest neighbor - which is currently an empty building, but sometimes has film shoots and temporary installs. I should also point out that I’ve sat in this room for many hours now, and have not once heard street noise of any sort… sirens, yelling, honking - nothing. Only the sounds of the hallway, office and hvac are audible in the studio.
The space as it stands is on the 2nd floor of a 2-story office building. The first floor of the building is a vacant storefront (also leased by the label for future plans), and houses the label’s inventory warehouse behind that. The 2nd floor is where the studio and employee offices are. A map of 2nd floor:
Here are current panoramic pictures of the 2 spaces:
Future Control Room:
Future Live Room:
The studio is 2 separate rooms with a drop ceiling that is suspended over the entirety of the office complex:
Almost every wall on the 2nd floor is a partition that only goes up 9’ 10", then has the drop ceiling system rest on top. 21" above that is a plaster/wood-decking ceiling that suspends the T-bars and has HVAC, electrical, etc coming through it. Above that is about 3’ of vaulted attic space. Here are ceiling details:
Attic:
Dimensions:
The only exception to the "false walls" is near the reception area with the window in it. About 2/3 of it appears to have been built as a structural wall, so that one does go up all the way to the plaster ceiling. Detail of that from above the drop ceiling:
There is a ledge along the concrete exterior wall, as well as a couple of vertical columns... This is earthquake rebar that’s been dressed up. Here’s a reveal of that through the drop ceiling:
I ran some SPL tests in the space. Here are two diagrams that show the normal SPL of the studio and offices (HVAC running, chatter/phone calls etc), as well as a map that shows SPL when there’s a loud operating level coming from what will eventually be the Live room. The source material was a hip-hop track from the label, so this should be indicative of typical levels:
AFAICT, the main source of transmission and weakest iso-point (besides doors/windows) is the shared space above the entire floorplan. The drop ceiling with standard tiles does very little to kill any sound, not to mention the walls seem un-insulated (so-cal style…)
One thing I noticed is the volume seems and tested louder in the hallway/office than it does in the reception area, which is relatively quiet. This tells me that the structural wall is doing some good in blocking sound by merely going up all the way to the plaster ceiling.
Hope this is sufficient information. Here's a link to the sketchup file of the original space in case that’s helpful. In the next post I’ll outline my current design idea and ask some questions! Thanks for reading :mrgreen:
New Studio Design/Build in Highland Park, L.A., CA
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 20082.
My current design idea is based around:
1. Doing this all for under $10k
2. Isolating the studio space from office sounds
3. Using the existing concrete wall within the space to cut costs, and treating it heavily with Acoustic Panels/Absorption
4. Using and fortifying all exterior walls, ceiling and the partition wall dividing the rooms
I suppose the ideal goal would be to gain about 15-20db of reduction in the hallway… and to eliminate any possibility of voices, doors opening/closing, phones ringing etc from coming into the studio.
Here are some views of the design:
Here are the "steps" involved with the design as I see it:
01. Remove drop ceiling in studio space
02. Patch Plaster Ceiling
- There are some areas of the ceiling where the plaster has fallen…
03. Add 1 layer of 5/8" gypsum to existing plaster ceiling; seal drywall and all HVAC/Elec openings
04. Remove Interior Drywall from existing walls and place against inside of exterior drywall (between studs, creating double mass in cavities)
05. Frame up exterior walls 21" to plaster ceiling with new studs/drywall on exterior
06. Fill newly formed cavities with R-13
07. Frame 5 new walls (1 on each side except for concrete wall) 2" from original studs, up to drywall ceiling.
08. Fill new interior wall cavities with R-13 (creating ~10" Air Gap between 2 leaves)
09. Place 2 layers 5/8" gypsum on Interior Walls
10. Re-Install Drop Ceiling… about 1ft higher than previously.
11. Install actual acoustic tiles / diffusion in T-bar system
12. Treat walls/corners with traps, diffusion etc.
My thinking is that this design could be efficient enough for our needs, and still provide a nice listening environment and studio "feeling". To reiterate, our main goal is keeping outside sound from coming INTO the space. I’ve priced all the materials for such a build to be around $5k including solid doors, screws, paint, tax and all that misc. Those numbers were computed from the areas of the entire walls, so hoping they're somewhat liberal:
I’m hoping this could be done within a 3-week period. I’ve found a craftsman in town who’s worked on studios before and is comfortable with all these terms and building methods. We’re working on a situation where he does the important tasks with my help, then I and some friends can caulk, tape, hang drywall etc. So far with his rate in mind I’m still a bit under 10k…
I suppose these are my main questions about this design:
1. Is not having a new ceiling that's decoupled from the exterior walls going to be a major killer? My current design has both sets of walls going up to a reinforced ceiling with a beefed up false ceiling. We have no neighbors above us, but I’m worried that the new walls will do nothing and too much sound will still "jump" over to the offices. Building a ceiling and then drastically redoing all the HVAC/Elec seems like the most expensive/tedious part of the project. Would like to avoid doing so if possible.
2. I’m assuming that my thinking for the 2 leaf MAM walls is correct, and that it’s worth the effort to tear off the interior layer of drywall to prevent that 3rd leaf? I’m really trying to maximize the amount of things I can do for cheap/free, and this sounds like a project I could get underway before we start building walls for little/no expense.
3. I’m having a hard time deciding about door placement. I originally moved the CR door to where that window was, but now I’m thinking it will be tough to treat the back corner also. Where would you move the CR door in this situation? Or is this an OK spot considering there's already a hole from where the window was?
4. Would you use double doors on the Control Room? Seems a bit easier than building a single monster door, which we’ll probably have to do for the live room since it’s on a hallway.
5. Roxul Safe n Sound vs R13 in wall cavities seems to be a hotly contested issue. Are there any final verdicts in that conversation? Both are available in Los Angeles, but would like to save the money by going with R13 if possible.
6. Is there anything I’m overlooking or not thinking about? Any catastrophic holes in the design?!
Really looking forward to hearing any feedback or opinions. Thanks so much in advance for reading all this!
Deconstruction has begun! A few photos of drop-ceiling removal, and beginning to push the inner-layer drywall back to the outer. Sawzalling in between the studs and then will cleat/caulk the big pieces.
One nice surprise I found yesterday is that the back wall of the live room also goes up to the ceiling - similar to the back wall of the control room. A little less framing/drywalling to be done:
More to come throughout the weekend... Would appreciate feedback on the design if anyone gets a free moment!
It’s really great posts.
Probably...or more accurately...yes! The best way to achieve isolation is to build a room within a room. You should be putting joists across the space (on which you will hang the internal ceiling), supported off the internal frame, so that the internal frame does not make contact with the outer leaf at ANY point...apart from the floor. It will obviously add cost, however it will mean you stand more of a chance of achieving your goal of isolation.1. Is not having a new ceiling that's decoupled from the exterior walls going to be a major killer?
Roger that! You'll also want to line inside both 'leaves' with insulation (as close to 30 km/m^3 if it's fiberglass or 50 kg/m^3 if its mineral fibre) which you can't do if you don't rip that layer off.2. I’m assuming that my thinking for the 2 leaf MAM walls is correct, and that it’s worth the effort to tear off the interior layer of drywall to prevent that 3rd leaf? I’m really trying to maximize the amount of things I can do for cheap/free, and this sounds like a project I could get underway before we start building walls for little/no expense.
If you can get the door out of the CR corner that will help you with treating that room - you will want super-chunks or some such in the corners for bass absorption/management. Also, symmetry is a big thing for mix rooms...so having both back corners treated in the same way will help towards making it a mix/master room worth having. Double doors are better than not...however the suggestion is still for somewhat massive doors...to match the massiveness of the walls etc. As well as well sealed doors. Have you considered HVAC into your planning yet? An important - expensive - and somewhat fiddly part of the design. If not..get on to that pronto! Ventilation and moisture control will be big factors for both these rooms. Cheers, Scott3. I’m having a hard time deciding about door placement. I originally moved the CR door to where that window was, but now I’m thinking it will be tough to treat the back corner also. Where would you move the CR door in this situation? Or is this an OK spot considering there's already a hole from where the window was? 4. Would you use double doors on the Control Room? Seems a bit easier than building a single monster door, which we’ll probably have to do for the live room since it’s on a hallway.
Much more progress since my last post! I’ve been grinding on all the deconstruction and modifications to the existing structure every day, so haven’t had much time to update.
I decided to take the advice of Scott (rockindad) and basically every other person on this forum and build a new ceiling. As this is probably our weakest point considering the drop ceiling that spans the building, I figured it best not to skimp here. Thanks for reinforcing that! It actually shouldn’t cost too much more than my estimate for reinstalling a T-Bar ceiling. A materials delivery error worked in our favor and we also had an architect friend come by and approve all our structural concerns. Fate has been kind thus far.
So! Here are some pictures…
T-Bar ceiling totally removed, and interior drywall sawzalled out between the studs in both rooms:
Ceiling Plaster patched with pieces of 1/2” drywall, caulk and mud:
Doors and Windows removed, old control room door framed in, and interior drywall pieces “pushed back” and caulked into the cavities:
Control/Tracking window - 36” x 60” - cut out:
Insulation starting to get stapled into exterior wall cavities:
Lumber delivery!
Onto some questions…
We discovered plywood beneath the walls that go up to the ceiling (see first photo), indicating that they’re shearing walls. Because of this, we won’t be able to create a pure 2-leaf system in these areas. This is one of those “work with what you’ve got” situations I think, since this is a structural element of the building.
My plan is to start the airgap (10” from leaf to leaf) between the old/new walls from the surface of the shearing wall, as if they were the “back” of the exterior drywall. I’ve begun stapling insulation backwards to these walls (kraft facing on the wall) to dampen the impending cavity they’ll create. Like so:
I’m assuming this is an acceptable way to go? I know it’s not perfect, but I figured better to have insulation in there than not.
More updates coming soon! Next steps are to add a 5/8” layer of sheetrock to the plaster ceiling, fill the hole where the old door was, and start framing the exterior walls up to the ceiling the whole way around.
Would appreciate any input!
Right, but I don't see any cleats? You do need cleats to hold the drywall in place: caulk alone isn't enough., and interior drywall pieces “pushed back” and caulked into the cavities:
Pity. But sometimes you just have no choice! But with a 10" air gap and a good amount of mass on the leaves, you should be OK. - Stuart -Because of this, we won’t be able to create a pure 2-leaf system in these areas. This is one of those “work with what you’ve got” situations I think, since this is a structural element of the building.
Thanks for the response Stuart! I used a lot of liquid nails between the layers, caulked and mudded. Most of them were pretty small pieces... I've sawzalled through a few of those layered panels and they act like one thick piece throughout the entire cut. I'll add some cleats on the bigger remaining pieces just to be super safe.
More updates coming soon, just got a couple of walls up :D
:shock: Ooopps! Bad move... You really should ask before you do things like that. You now have one very rigid, stiff chunk, instead of several individual, flexible layers that are able to work independently. You now have one single very pronounced coincidence dip, at a much lower frequency than it should be, among other issues. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=493&start=19 It's too late now, of course (unless you feel like trashing the walls and starting again!), so you'll have to live with that... But how much isolation are you aiming for, and at what frequencies? You might need to compensate for that lost isolation in other ways...I used a lot of liquid nails between the layers,
Yup. And that's the problem: They should not act like that. They should act like individual layers, supported only at the edges. Hopefully it's not too bug of a deal, but it does teach that it's always better to ask before doing things in a studio build, because acoustics is not intuitive. Sound waves and building materials do not behave together in the ways we intuitively expect them to... - Stuart -I've sawzalled through a few of those layered panels and they act like one thick piece throughout the entire cut.
@Stuart: Whoops! Definitely didn't consider that. Luckily I think that's the only "shortcut" I took and stayed pretty on-book for the rest. Thanks for the heads up! I suppose having 1" drywall instead of 1/2" drywall is still better than just throwing the pieces of sheetrock away.
Much progress has happened in the last 2 weeks, and we're almost ready for drywall! Some pics:
New exterior ceiling layer of 5/8" sheetrock going up:
New exterior ceiling up!
Framing and installing the "crippled walls" that extend from current partitions up to new drywall on ceiling. Double 5/8" sheetrock on all these, left out that one bay as that's where Electrical was coming through. (We've since removed all the electrical and will start fresh with all new surface mounted receptacles/switches that will connect to J-boxes in the attic-space. Will home-run new clean connections to the breaker.)
Our lead builder in action framing the first new wall:
New Control Room Walls:
New Control Room Ceiling:
Walls & Ceiling + RC & Fluff:
Reverse Angle of the Control Room/Wood Shop:
Starting to Frame the Tracking Room and Window:
And that brings us up-to-speed! Goal for this week is to finish Electrical & HVAC roughing/framing, tracking room walls/ceiling framing and get our drywall team in the room to start hanging/caulking.
A couple of questions have popped up, hopefully someone can assist:
1. For HVAC, I was told by an architect that just snaking an extra 25' of larger flex duct in the attic is essentially the same as building a baffle box. That's what he said he does to minimize A/C noise - which is already pretty quiet in our space. I'm thinking of expanding the 8" duct that's currently there to 12", then running the extra 25' of that into the room per duct... There's currently a bit of hum, but the system is pretty quiet as-is. Has anyone experimented with such a system?
2. Another HVAC question - Currently there's just flex extending down through the ceiling that connected to the old T-Bar grate. I'm thinking of placing a metal, rigid duct between the 2 ceiling layers I have so that I can create a more rigid caulking connection leading up to the register. Is this the right idea? Seems impossible to do if I were to just extend the flex-duct through.
Let me know any feedback! Opinions greatly welcomed.
Great time for another update while I wait for the drywall team to finish up on this Sunday afternoon...
HVAC Vents installed with Registers. Connected these to some scrap RC-1 that was lying around to get it flush with the drywall:
Was a LOT of fun playing in the attic connecting ducts for a few hours the other day during our 100°+ heatwave!
The idea of widening the duct to 10" and extending it 25' to get it "farther" from the compressor seems to have worked. No more dull hum coming through the pipes - as far as I can hear. I still haven't moved the returns from the hallway into the space since they'd just be sucking up drywall dust... Figure I'll do that as a potential last step. Still need to figure out how to build a filter box to move the filter into the attic instead of at the vent opening... :blah:
Framing is completed in the live room:
Let there be drywall:
Decided to skimcoat the concrete wall as well, which was in pretty bad shape:
Drywall should be finishing up tomorrow, then we'll start painting. Tuesday = window delivery/install, hopefully doors and all their parts can all be gathered this week.
Speaking of jambs - 5/4 stock lumber has been the hardest thing to find in this build so far. I don't know if it's becoming more and more of a "specialty" item, but I'm getting blank stares almost everywhere - way beyond big box stores. Legit lumber yards are either out of stock for the forseeable future, or questioning why I would need such a thing...
I'm not giving up on the search though, as it seems like a fairly important part of keeping things sturdy. Not to mention we've built all the framing to accomodate it :cop: I found a moulding shop that has some 5/4 poplar, but in random lengths & widths. I'm hoping I can convince them to cut some down so I'm not left with dozens of feet of weird-dimension lumber.
Speaking of weird dimensions... 5/4 stock is hard to find, but ever look for a 5/4" x 17" x 7'?
Haha! I've decided to stray from Rod's double door assembly (straight jamb) here, and custom 2 separate jambs with caulk in-between a la Glenn's door. The moulding shop has 5/4 x 6.625" and a 9.875" that should work and leave about a .25" gap.
Meanwhile for the live room's super door I intend to keep it a straight jamb. The moulding shop has 12 7/8" that should work if ripped down a bit. The outside (existing) wall is 1/2" out of plumb so we'll have to go from 12 3/4" > 12 1/4" - bummer.
I've been dreaming about door and window jambs the past few nights, so I'll be stoked to have those completed. It's probably horrifying me because it's the ultimate test of "Did any of this work, or not?" HA!
Been reading lots of posts on creating these jambs, so hopefully all will go smoothly. The one thing I can't figure out is the purpose for Rod's Neoprene seal along the window sill. Finding a 1.75" solid neoprene strip has also been difficult, and I don't see many people using it anyway. I think I'm going to just stuff the framing cavity with some extra R-13, TAPE the opening to prevent fluff-dust from coming through, then place fabric-wrapped 703 or ceiling tile between the jamb and stops.
I found some 6"x6' KAYU wood that I may use for the window jamb as it's very straight, very dense and available in 5/4 stock at a local store. It's also pretty. Literally the only 5/4 nominal boards I've found in all of Los Angeles:
Have lots of previous posts open in tabs about building the windows and doors. Would appreciate any pointers for my situation if anything jumps out at anyone!
Very excited to paint and think about aesthetics... and glad the end is in sight for major construction.
We've blasted through our budget unfortunately. Getting this to happen quickly did not end up being cheap, and when you're in the middle of the install you can't exactly "do without" something. We're hoping to keep things around $16k instead of our original $10k max. Luckily we anticipated this - somewhat - and had some emergency funds to cover us to the end. Still better than the $35k minimum some designers quoted us.
Thanks for reading and any advice is always appreciated!
This is cool! I love seeing progress on forum builds.
Smart move! That will actually help a lot, because it seals the concrete surface, which is porous.Decided to skimcoat the concrete wall as well, which was in pretty bad shape:
That should work just fine, especially if you get that 5/4 for the jambs.custom 2 separate jambs with caulk in-between a la Glenn's door. The moulding shop has 5/4 x 6.625" and a 9.875" that should work and leave about a .25" gap.
I'm wondering if Sorbothane might be a good alternative. Give them a call and see what they think. They make it up to 1.5", but you could probably laminate thinner sheets to get the thickness you need. - Stuart -Finding a 1.75" solid neoprene strip has also been difficult
It’s really great posts.
Awesome.. How's the project coming along?
Sorry for the mega delay in posts. The end of the build got pretty intense - so many little things to consider! Seals, doors, electrical, decor, STAINING, HVAC... I took my first weekend off in a long time yesterday and am excited to report we're pretty much wrapped on construction! I had my first session last Thursday and things went well. There are a few elements we'll continue to work on that I'll detail below. I may need to do this in a few posts too with the photo limit...
The window installation went surprisingly smooth! I was expecting this to be a major hassle, but with Rod's excellent step-by-step on this forum and our carpenter's knowledge the process was relatively simple.
Window Framing stuffed with fluff:
Rather than using some sort of neoprene plug here or something as Rod described, I just ended up taping the gap in the framing. I figured this wouldn't couple the walls to any damaging degree, and would seal it off from having fluff or dust enter the window cavity:
I ended up doing one pane of 1/2" tempered glass (tracking side) and then 1 pane of the "55 Glass" brand soundproof glass. If you're in the L.A. area, I highly suggest using this stuff. They sell to a lot of recording studios apparently, and they were a breeze to deal with.
Rather than buy some window suction cups to install the panes (only the 2nd piece, the first can obviously be cleaned of fingerprints on both sides) I went to the local glass shop and asked if I could "rent" some. The guy was super nice about it, and ended up being 1/4 the price of buying pro cups for such heavy glass:
Windows in:
I stuffed the new jamb gap with rigid foam (same as with door pictured below), then opted for the ceiling tile wrapped in black duck cloth pushed between the jambs to cover it. Naturally, I got the hang of this on the last piece I made. Because the ceiling tiles we had were only 4' wide, and the window 6' wide, I had to splice 2 "slices" of the tiles together for the top and bottom gap. I really don't recommend doing that. I've noticed (something probably no one else ever will) that one half of the tile on the top has started to sag a bit, and I'm now dreading the day that it hangs down - stuck in between two giant pieces of glass. Fingers crossed that never happens! haha Luckily it's only noticeable from one angle, which is now inaccessible with the console in place.
Detail:
Casing being nailed in:
The door jambs, in my opinion, were the gnarliest part of construction. It took WAY longer than anticipated, and since we were dealing with pre-exsting construction (read: not plumb) it was a true challenge to get these in place, and ready to hold a massive door or two. Come to think of it, I think one of the hardest parts was finding the appropriate wood! 5/4 stock is just not as popular as it apparently once was, so I settled on true-1-inch plywood that we ripped down. I went with one piece of 1-inch birch for the super door, and regular 3/4 pine for the double door. This actually ended up being pretty cost-effective, and if you have a table saw, I highly suggest going this route instead of hunting down weird dimensions and getting all those confused looks from lumber yards.
We jambin:
^^^Complete with Edge-Banding (for the ply edges)
Framing gap stuffed with 703:
Shimmed, Nailed and Caulked:
I'll move onto Door Install and more in the next post!
I'm just wondering why you tilted your glass in your windows, leaving a much narrower gap at the bottom? :shock: You DO realize that doing that greatly reduces your isolation between rooms, and is not necessary for any acoustical reason?
I'm pretty sure that Rod even mentions that in his book, which you mention that you read. So I'm curious as to the reason for doing that...
You lost a lot of isolation by doing that, especially in the low frequencies.
- Stuart -
Totally valid question! Because I like the way it looks 8) I've always loved the lines in traditional studios, and tilted glass brings to mind "studio" - which IMO helps people feel comfortable creatively. I've also gotten a lot of compliments about the way it looks, which is always good for business if people feel like they're in a cool-looking space.
I had a chance to work in the Capitol A Room a few weeks ago, and the entire control room front is tilted glass. It's a huge element of the beauty of that room, and "there's just something about it".
There's definitely no noticeable sound coming through the window... any bleed is definitely coming through the floor since the control and tracking room are built on the same 2nd floor wooden deck. There's a level of isolation we just can't expect with some of the choices we made. I'll detail the rest of that in my next post...
This post will cover Door Construction through to Move-In Day! Unfortunately, with the stress and rushing to finish I didn't photograph quite as thoroughly as I did in previous steps. I did take pictures when I thought something we were doing was complicated, so we could retrace our steps and to show others with questions...
Finished Double-Doors:
Close-up of the stop seals:
I went with the "K"/"L"/'55 Malibu Trunk Rubber Rod recommends. I also went with Pemko Automatic Door Bottoms and Acoustic Sealing Thresholds for all 3 doors. I can't say enough good things about the Pemko seals - all very solid construction, and do a great job of sealing. I opted out of getting the magnetic weather stripping. I think you can get away with it on double doors, but I do think it would've made a much better seal for our super door.
Just to put it in another place on this forum, you can buy the trunk rubber at perfectfit.com, Item No. AV04731
The Pemko models I bought were:
AUTOMATIC DOOR BOTTOM: 4131_RL
ACOUSTIC SEALING THRESHOLD: 2006STC
I much prefer double doors to the super door. It's a bit more expensive... double doors/seals/thresholds, etc. But, I found all that stuff easy compared to making a super (heavy) door that doesn't latch closed. I think there's something psychosomatic about walking through two doors as opposed to one. Really feeling the effect of that second seal closing is important to creating that atmosphere I think. Obviously having an airlock (like most pro studios) really does the trick, but IMO the double-door is a great solution when going DIY.
That being said, the super door was our only option for the live room because of the hallway adjacent to it, and it did a pretty great job of sealing out the sound from the hall. Here's a shot of the hung door with the lead rubber-cemented and nailed on:
Sheet lead was hard to find in-town, Bobco had it but was pretty pricey. I ended up ordering on Amazon with free Prime shipping (!) from a company called Roto Metals. Lots of different thicknesses and widths to choose from. I opted for the 1' roll of 1/16th and cemented 3 strips. I found that having a hard roller, like for ironing out bubbles from vinyl stickers, was key in getting the lead to flatten out on the door... otherwise it would've been difficult to mount the ply on top.
Here's the completed super door, complete with pulls on each side, 5 inch backset deadbolt (with stainless grommet to cover the lock's recession) and door closer:
After doors was Electrical, which we ended up doing entirely ourselves. It was nice to actually improve the existing electrical as we went, and bring it up to code in the spots where it was a little funky. No pictures here, as most of it was installed in the attic, then fished down through conduit into the studio. We ended up only making 6x 1/2" penetrations total, and 2 are behind our hemholtz diffusors so are pretty well sealed off.
For lighting, I went with a combo of recessed lights in a ceiling cloud + track lighting. Big thanks to simo for the inspiration here, his ceiling cloud build gave me the confidence to do this myself! Here's a picture of the cloud getting wired up by our contractor:
And a pic of the aforementioned hemholtz slot diffusers ('tuned' to 153hz) being built:
And here's the finished product (panoramic shots, I swear the walls aren't crooked):
And one with me for good measure 8)
I've still got some work to do... have to build some absorbers/diffusors to finish treating the room (after some more testing), install a thermostat, build a lot of cables, etc. The tracking room is currently being used for storage, but each day I'm doing a little bit to organize things in there.
I've started building the signal pass-through between the rooms. I was able to modify an inexpensive punched rack panel to work perfectly for our needs... I think they came out pretty good for this novice woodworker:
And that's pretty much a wrap on construction! I'm so stoked to start working on SOUND again! This was by far the hardest endeavor I've ever undertaken, and the results are massively gratifying. Looking around and knowing I've touched (and probably stressed over) each component in the room is a great feeling.
In terms of the effectiveness of isolation, I haven't had time to test SPL and compare the results yet, but it's a night/day difference from before we started. At normal monitoring levels, there is NOTHING outside in the hallway. Pin drop status. With the speakers and sub cranked all the way up, there's some low end that can be felt in the hall/office, but is drowned out by typical office noise.
The floor is the obvious weak-point. We didn't touch it because of concerns of weight/cost/awkwardness, and there are a couple of creaky floor boards we're trying to fix that make noise in the room when people walk through the hall. None of this was unanticipated, and I suppose is a reality of building a studio on the 2nd floor of an old building. We're figuring out a "red light" system in the meantime to keep people out of the sensitive spots while recording is happening. Old School! haha
We're in sort of a soft opening phase right now, with friends using the room alongside some of my own projects. We've gotten some great feedback so far, and are hoping to have the branding, gear and full acoustic treatment ironed out by the new year. At that point we'll start advertising and try to get some new business pumping in.
Let me know what you think! Would love to hear any constructive criticism or suggestions... Can't thank you all enough (as well as those who've posts I've scoured) for contributing to this community. I definitely couldn't have imagined myself doing all this a few months ago, but knowing so many have had success doing it on their own was a major confidence boost and saved us some serious dough.
I'll try to update the thread once we make more changes and post the completed live room once that's done.
It's looking really nice I must say! Good workmanship.
How about if you run a REW test in there, to see how well it is doing acoustically? If you post the MDAT file, I'd be happy to take a look at it, and analyze it for you.
By the way, one comment you made caught my attention:
Why did you pick 153 Hz? Is that a specific modal problem that you are concerned about? I looked at the dimensions for your room and did a modal analysis, but I didn't notice any issues at all at such a high frequency: your modal issues are all much lower for that room, all of them are down below 89 Hz. So I'm curious as to why you chose 153 Hz as the tuned frequency for your Helmholtz resonators? Also, to me it looks like you built those slot resonators (not diffusers) diagonally across the front corners. Did you build some type of fixed-depth sealed box behind those, that isn't visible in the pictures? If not, then they are not tuned to 153 Hz. Since the depth of the cavity varies (very shallow at the edges, very deep in the middle), then it isn't not tuned sharply to a specific frequency with a high Q and high efficiency. Rather, it is tuned as a broadband absorber that covers a very wide range of frequencies, is not sharply tuned, and has a rather low Q and low efficiency. To confirm: What thickness are the slats, what size are the gaps, and how big are those slats (height and length of the planks)? If you give me those numbers, I'll let you know what they are actually tuned for. Also, how about a photo towards the back of the room, showing the rear wall treatment? But most interesting of all would be the REW test. - Stuart -And a pic of the aforementioned hemholtz slot diffusers ('tuned' to 153hz) being built:
Hi All,
Sorry for not updating sooner... it's been a long few months! Been sorting gear, having sessions... but the quest to perfection continues ;)
To answer Stuart's question about the Slat Resonators... those were to built to spec from Rod's book, including size and angles. Frame built behind, 4" of insulation, felt, then the wood slats. If by airtight you mean caulked with the frame going all the way around, I suppose it's airtight. The (actual) wood dimensions were 0.625 in. x 7.125 in. x ~54.75 in. We spaced them 9/16".
I used 153Hz because I noticed a large spike there in testing before building. I was testing in a hurry to begin work, but it seemed like just about everywhere I put the mic (especially mix position) there was a big 153 buildup.
I've finally gotten the room to a semi-permanent point, with nice speakers. And some general treatment. I'd love if anyone would take a look at my most recent Fuzz test.
Testing was done through an Aurora Converter with Pacifica Preamp and AKG 414... I know these probably aren't the most accurate testing apparatus, but figured it'd be in the ballpark.
These are linked in the title to show a larger version:
Mix Position:
Client Position (couch):
In general I'm noticing a few things about the sound in the room...
1. There's a big null in low frequency near where the rug ends toward the back of the room... about 3/4 back from the front. Especially noticeable when standing. The ceiling in this area is untreated.
2. There's a big bass buildup on the client couch. Not the worst thing since we're hip-hop focused... but would love to tame it a bit to give a more accurate representation of the mix.
3. There was a big buildup of 105hz at the mix position, but has been significantly tamed since adding a 4" trap under the window in the front of the room. Not sure if that means anything special.
4. Most of the ceiling (save for the mix position), and the wall with window are untreated.
I think a big issue right now is my speaker placement. I have this dumb desk I'm working on until we buy a console (soon hopefully) and it keeps me from having the speakers pushed a little further back. Otherwise the computer screen would block the center of the image (I'm assuming)...
Here are new photos of the room, front AND back :) (excuse the mess...)
Front:
Back:
The tracking room is still being used for storage... hoping to have that up and running in a couple of weeks.
Things seem fairly flat to me, though I'm sure there's room for improvement. Would greatly appreciate any advice!
No, what I mean is that there must be a completely airtight enclosure behind the slats: a "box". It must have a top, bottom, two sides, and a back, and all of those must be sealed to each other, to make it completely air-tight, except for the front, where the slats are. It must be impossible for air to get in and out of the cavity behind, except through the slots between the slats. If you did not seal the cavity behind, them that is not a slot wall: it is not working as a series of Helmholtz resonators: It's just an attractive decoration. It might also be doing a bit of diffusion, and maybe some low frequency absorption, but it is not a tuned resonator. Helmholtz resonators need an enclosed volume of air in order to work. Without that, there is no resonance.If by airtight you mean caulked with the frame going all the way around, I suppose it's airtight.
How deep is the cavity? Did you put insulation in the cavity, but not touching the slats? And since the cavity varies greatly in depth, that thing is NOT tuned to 153 Hz. It is tuned to a very broad range of frequencies, which I can calculate for you if you tell me the dimensions of the triangular cavity behind them. Of course, that only applies if the cavity is sealed: if there is even a tiny crack where air can leak in and out, then it isn't tuned to any frequency: it's just a bunch of wood on a frame.The (actual) wood dimensions were 0.625 in. x 7.125 in. x ~54.75 in. We spaced them 9/16".
Your graphs aren't a lot of use: I would need the actual data. Please export an impulse response file for each measurement that you took, upload those to a file-sharing service (such as DropBox), and post the link here so I can download them..I've finally gotten the room to a semi-permanent point, with nice speakers. And some general treatment. I'd love if anyone would take a look at my most recent Fuzz test.
Did you set your 414 to omni pattern for those tests? If not, then the tests are not valid. Acoustic tests must always be done with an omni mic...Testing was done through an Aurora Converter with Pacifica Preamp and AKG 414...
If you did not use an omni mic, set up correctly, and calibrated correctly, then probably not.I know these probably aren't the most accurate testing apparatus, but figured it'd be in the ballpark.
You are using way too much smoothing on your graphs. 1/6 octave is hiding all of the details that are critical to seeing what is actually going in. Room modes are very narrow band, just a few Hz wide: if you smooth the data to 1/6 octave, you won't see them at all, or at best you'll see them as a slight, smooth bump, instead of the sharp, high Q event that they actually are. I rarely use anything more than 1/48 octave smoothing.These are linked in the title to show a larger version:
Rug? Why is there a rug in the room??? Carpets do terrible things to room acoustics. Take a look at photos of world-class studios in magazines: How many of them do you see with rugs on the floor? There's a reason for that... :)1. There's a big null in low frequency near where the rug ends toward the back of the room...
... which would be at the quarter wavelength position for all X.0.0 axial modes... Indicating that you do not have enough bass trapping on the front and back walls.about 3/4 back from the front.
Once again, indicates a lack of sufficient bass trapping, and probably the couch is in the wrong position too. In fact, looking at the photos, I do not see any bass trapping at all! :shock: And I also see that the client couch is right up against the rear wall, in the pressure peak for all modes, and right under a Schroeder diffuser that is not necessary, and does not look to be tuned to a useful frequency range. What are the upper and lower cut-off frequencies for that diffuser? Why is it there? Are you aware that you should never have a critical listening position within ten feet of a tuned diffuser, due to the lobing patterns it creates?2. There's a big bass buildup on the client couch.
I agree. There clearly are issues with the setup there. That needs to be fixed. What speakers are those, and which are your mains? Why do you want three sets? Why are they all at different heights?I think a big issue right now is my speaker placement.
The screens do need to go much lower down, yes. In general, it's not good to have anything between the speakers and your ears, but as long as they don't block the direct path for the tweeters it might be acceptable. Check the dimensions of the monitors vs. the wavelengths produced by the mid-range driver to be sure. As long as the wavelength is significantly larger than then largest dimension of the monitor, you should be OK. But I would get rid of that desk with the large boxy reflective, resonant thingies all over it, and get a simple flat desk that is very solidly built for your console. Set up your screens as low as you can get them, on articulated arms, beyond the console, and adjust them so that they interfere as little as possible with the sound path from speaker to ear, and also do not cause unwanted reflections that get to your ears within the Haas time.Otherwise the computer screen would block the center of the image (I'm assuming)...
Me too! :) There is undoubtedly a LOT of room for improvement in there: I can tell you, just from looking at the photos, and without even seeing the actual impulse response data from your tests, that you have serious modal issues, SBIR issues, large peaks and dips in the bass, frequency response variations greater than +/- 10 dB, variations in decay times that exceed the specs for control rooms, flutter echo, stereo imaging problems, early reflection problems, and several other less important issues. I'd say there's a lot of room for improvement! :) You are not seeing that in your graphs, because you have smoothed all of that out of view, and not set useful parameters for viewing the data: It LOOKS good like that, but all you have succeeded in doing is masking the issues, so you can't see them. But they are still there. Even at the scale you are showing, there are some pretty major issues visible, and I'm betting that unsmoothed and shown at the proper scale, they are actually a bit scary... So please send me the impulse response data from all of your tests, and I'll take a look at it, and show you where your issues are, then we can decide what to do about them. - Stuart -though I'm sure there's room for improvement.
Hey Stuart,
Can't thank you enough for your thorough responses. Answers below:
I see. We did not build boxes. Just framed around the wall, following the instructions in Build It Like the Pros for a "Helmholtz Corner Slot Resonator". Here's the plan we used, save for the dimensions I mentioned in the last post: We used 4" Rockwool Batt Insulation with netting behind it to prevent it from falling back into the cavity.Helmholtz resonators need an enclosed volume of air in order to work. Without that, there is no resonance.
Here are brand-new tests done this am... sorry for the incomplete data before. Happy to re-run these or export any additional info you may need. I'm using FuzzMeasure for Mac: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/724 ... c_data.zipPlease export an impulse response file for each measurement that you took, upload those to a file-sharing service (such as DropBox), and post the link here so I can download them..
It's just kinda thrown in there, can take it out if you think there will be an improvement. I've definitely seen carpet & rugs in lots of top studios (capitol, westlake, paramount) so is there something inherently bad about this placement? Perhaps a rug is better suited in the back of the room?Rug? Why is there a rug in the room??? Carpets do terrible things to room acoustics. Take a look at photos of world-class studios in magazines: How many of them do you see with rugs on the floor? There's a reason for that...
It's there to help with echos I was hearing in the back of the room, and that's where I usually see them in studios... :wink: Manufacturer says effective from 325Hz-3kHzWhat are the upper and lower cut-off frequencies for that diffuser? Why is it there?
The mains are Focal Trios. I've been tweaking all this constantly, so no logic here other than trying to use this desk as effectively as possible, and going by my ears. The tweeters of the Focals are about 4.5' from the front wall currently. We had a couple of other pairs setup just for listening. Planning to adjust all this and move things toward the front of the room once we get the console situation sorted. I'm hoping all this data is still relevant even though we're planning to move things around in the next month.What speakers are those, and which are your mains? Why do you want three sets? Why are they all at different heights?
Sorry! Wasn't trying to come off as arrogant... poor word choice on my part. There will always be TONS of improvements to be made to this humble room - and I can't thank you enough for taking interest!Me too! There is undoubtedly a LOT of room for improvement in there
I just realized it may be better to do these tests without our subwoofer on... I've re-performed the tests with it muted:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/724 ... NO_SUB.zip
We're usually monitoring with the sub, but I turn it off frequently when mixing.