Thanks Stuart!
Just an update I have been making some progress with the framing but can't do too much until my insulation is delivered since I have to put it places that I won't have access to once I build an inside out wall. I'll post some pics of the progress tomorrow.
Tomorrow I have a plumber coming in to rough out the bathroom and relocate some more piping and a shut off valve to an accessible location.
Also, I wont be able to proceed with my framing until I decide how to frame the doors.
Since I am going with a single door, I need to know which framing detail I should follow, Rod's, or this other method:
Option 1 (Rods)Option 2Does any one know which is better?
Once I have this info I should be able to frame everything out.
NEW Basement Studio Design in New York. Looking for advice
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 19949.
If you are going with a single door, it probably doesn't really matter if you couple the leaves, since your isolation is reduced in any case. So that's probably fine.
- Stuart -
Great Thanks for the reply Stuart - saving me left and right.
Rod basically says to couple the leaves in his book but I wasn't sure if there was any advantage to the other method.
Only if you have two doors... :) - Stuart -I wasn't sure if there was any advantage to the other method.
I wish I had the space but the door is at the bottom of the stairs and can only swing 1 direction.
The other opening could be a double, but I figured since I'm forced into doing 1 single door, may as well just do both openings single doors.
UPDATE! Here are some construction photos! :yahoo: DISCLAIMER: I KNOW some of the photos are upside down or sideways. I am unable to fix this on this computer. I have tried everything. If anyone knows why this keeps happening or how to fix it PLEASE HELP!! I cannot adjust them once they are uploaded on this site, so I have to adjust them before. When I view them on my computer, they are all upright to begin with, but I tried rotating them anyway back to upright and re-saving them, but still when I upload to this site they go sideways again!! i took all photos from same phone holding same way and sent to same computer so I at completely clueless as to why this is happening!!
EDIT: ALL PHOTOS HAVE BEEN FIXED (no longer sideways/upside down)
Insulation delivery - approx 4,000 square feet - wouldn't fit in my garage!!
these next few photos are the 7" thick of mineral wool that go behind this one inside out wall:
hardest part so far was holding the 7" thick of rockwool in place before the inside out wall was stood up into place. they had a tendency to bow outwards and want to fall down. To remedy I made tie-straps with blue tarp material to hold it in place. (it looks like blue painters tape but it is blue tarp cut into strips). Even with the straps holding it was still bowing and about to collapse. I basically held it all in place by hand with my body, then as my friend lifted the wall I made a last minute escape from the cavity. Even though I put 7" of mineral wool, and the wall has a 7" space, it was still rather difficult to get the wall back as far as it needed to. I had to hammer the bottom a bit to get it into place. Even thought the insulation is not being compressed, I can still see/feel it pushing the wall outwards slightly, on the top where it is not yet fastened (it is fastened to the slab on bottom). This was causing the side walls to "twist" - in other words, the vertical studs were not longer vertial but slightly leaning toward one side. To remedy, I put some temp wood braces to press against the wall, and everything went back to normal. I am hoping that once I put a layer of 3/4" ply on the studs, then any twisting will be prevented. Hopefully this is not a problem, please let me know. I am hoping that If i leave the wall pressed up against the insulation with slight pressure for a few days, it wont push back out once I take the temp braces off.
Making a piece of 1" thick batt:
Inside out wall UP!!
once the inside out wall was up, I was able to take a pic from the side since that portion is still open.
here is the regular wall partially filled with mineral wool. the space in between the studs will also be filled. 8" air space here so the mineral wool will fit perfectly without cutting the thickness.
The vapor barrier wraps around the sides and the top so that it can overlap the other pieces of vapor barrier that will get installed prior to plywood/gypsum.
Last photo is the framing towards the top of the wall where it clears the existing beams by less than 1/2"
I've also began filling the overhead cavity with mineral wool as well, I'll post some photos of that later today.
Cool! So it DID happen! :)UPDATE! Here are some construction photos!
I think that's because you built part of your wall sideways, part upside down, and part hanging bakwards from the ceiling! :) :lol: :lol: :lol:hardest part so far was holding the 7" thick of rockwool in place before the inside out wall was stood up into place. they had a tendency to bow outwards and want to fall down.
You could move to Australia, and that would fix it! :) (Gee, I'm funny today... 8) ) Seriously, any good graphic or paint program should be able to fix that. I downloaded a couple of yours, and they stayed sideways on my computer. A quick "rotate right", and they stood up properly again. Apart from that, it's looking pretty nice! - Stuart -DISCLAIMER: I KNOW some of the photos are upside down or sideways.
:D :yahoo: some more pics of the rockwool going in-between existing joists. the reason they are not filling the entire depth of the joist, is because I am actually able to go with all 2x6 ceiling joists so they need that 2" space to fit the 2x6. otherwise the 2x6 would be squeezing the rockwool..... once the 2x6's go in, I'll fill the rest of the way. this photo is shows the new steel beam with existing joists tied in, as well as the "beef-up". On the other side of the beam the rockwool is installed. again this is blue tarp stapled holding the rockwool up, not blue painters tape. new wall build just about 1/2" below existing joists. the white wall is the existing foundation wall and "outer leaf" in the center of this photo you can see a yellow line, that's an electrical wire. the new 2x6 ceiling joists may end up touching this wire slightly :cen: :shock: it is not making the wire tight or putting any pressure on it, but I will probably be in contact with the wire. these wires are not exactly soft and flexible but not rigid either. Is there a big concern for coupling/flanking or isolation loss because of this wire? last photo is of inside out wall with the vapor barrier extending over the top and sides so it can be continuous with the ceiling and other walls. I do have some question about how to get the vapor barrier installed on the inside-out ceiling. I have some ideas, but i think there will be small sections of framing still exposed..... I'll save this for another post. Also, ALL PHOTOS UPRIGHT (pats self on back)Apart from that, it's looking pretty nice!
Probably not, but if you are concerned about it, then put a soft rubber pad on top of the joist, where the wire will rest on it. Even a dab of very elastic caulk at the right spot would help (allow it to dry before you put the joist in place, of course) - Stuart -Is there a big concern for coupling/flanking or isolation loss because of this wire?
Stuart - THANKS A MILLION! as always...(i think were a few million in at this point, hopefully your not keeping track)put a soft rubber pad on top of the joist, where the wire will rest on it. Even a dab of very elastic caulk at the right spot would help
:thu: No problem! I'll let you know where you can send those millions, any time you are ready! :) Stray millions are always welcome in my bank account, for example!! :shot: - Stuart -(i think were a few million in at this point, hopefully your not keeping track)
some more construction photos!!
another material delivery!
inside out wall in the back and regular walls on the sides:
Also i do have one question. I saw in another post Stuarts method for decoupling electrical conduit between leaves. Due to the only 1" between framing, I could not run the conduit horizontal, so I ran in vertically. See photo:
I used rubber couplings to try and de-couple the conduit (<--- oxymoron?) So its a PVC elbow, then rubber coupling, then a length of PVC, then another rubber coupling, then the last PVC elbow. Its 2" PVC by the way. Does anyone know if these rubber PVC fitting will sufficiently decouple the pipe/walls? The rubber is noticeably flexible, it can be easily squeezed by hand. Its not "soft" but not rigid either. There is at least 2" of just rubber (no plastic PVC attachment within the coupling).
I have not covered up the pipe yet, so it's not to late to remove it, and do it right (if this is wrong)
(the plan is all surface mount for the electric by the way)
It looks fine. It's not just the straight-through flexibility of the rubber, but rather also the long "lever" that you added in there with the vertical section. So that's fine. - Stuart -Does anyone know if these rubber PVC fitting will sufficiently decouple the pipe/walls?
:yahoo: Thank you for the quick reply Stuart!! More building planned for this weekend, I'll be sure to post more pics!It looks fine. It's not just the straight-through flexibility of the rubber, but rather also the long "lever" that you added in there with the vertical section. So that's fine.
Following, and can’t wait to see how your ceiling ends up! Great job so far, and thanks for posting your design and progress!
hey i've been making some more progress with the framing! even got some of the ceiling joists up! - I'll post some photos soon.
I have a question regarding wood typer for door jambs.
rod's basic detail calls for "5/4 stock wood jamb"
i was thinking about using a 2x10 lumber for this. (1-1/2" thick) - Then I'm thinking regular lumber may not really be sound proof as it may have knots or split over time and not be airtight.
Can I use (2) layers of 3/4" OSB to make us the "5/4 stock wood jamb"?
Here are some more construction photo updates!! Things are moving along pretty steadily!
I had one question regarding the wall construction. I'm pretty sure I'm doing it right but just wanted to double check since I don't think I specifically detailed how I wold be building the inside out walls.
You can see from these photos how I did it. Basically same exact method as the existing ceiling "beef-up". Just added the gypsum in between the studs, with copious amount of acoustic caulk. The inner leaf is made of (1) layer of 3/4" OSB and (1) Layer of 5/8" Gypsum.
this looking okay?
The ceiling will be done in a similar way, I'll post some photos of that as I already installed (1) ceiling module into the ceiling framing grid.
I'd throw some sealant around the beef up drywall as well. I can't make out where we are looking. But the beef up looks right! The ceiling skeleton looks like normal dimensional lumber. How far is the span? Did you get an engineers stamp or at least an email confirming that the dimensional lumber will hold the dead load? Gregthis looking okay?
Hey Gregwor Thanks for the reply!!
:thu: check the photos below - plenty-o-sealantI'd throw some sealant around the beef up drywall as well.
The ceiling grid is 2x6. the span is almost but not quite 11'-0" with the joists 16" oc. Although I'm not planning on adding too much weight to the ceiling (no hanging cloud in the booth etc..) the ceiling would be able to handle quite a bit of extra weight. I have the calculations somewhere. Yes my architect/engineer gave me the size for those joists in writing, they helped me design my whole ceiling plan actually because there were steel beams involved which were basically impossible to calculate on my own what size to use. The formulas for determining steel beam size had bunch of terms I couldn't quite wrap my head around ("moment on inertia", "modulus of elasticity"). lol. so I needed an engineer. Here's some photos of the completed ceiling framing/grid. I also installed ONE of the ceiling modules. I believe this similar to the method that Stuart uses. I basically built the module on the ground, 2x3 frame with 3/4" osb on top, forming a box with the bottom open. Then 5/8" gypsum is added to the inside of the box up against the osb, actually this is a "beef-up" method as well. I am referring to anything where the gypsum goes in between the framing as "beef-up". Here you can see the inside out wall - now with the gypsum complete (beef-up style) Cut outs for the A/C and conduit for electric. One thing that slightly concerns me is the bottom plate of the wall. The 3/4" OSB that is behind goes all the way to the floor. But then in front, the bottom plate is becoming part of the second layer. Is this okay? In other words, I guess I'm asking is a 2x4 lumber laid on its side soundproof (<---LOL please don't laugh) Lumber tends to have knots and can split, etc... this is treated lumber with no knots. Or can any lumber or framing parts be part of the LEAF mass? Let me se if this sketch helps clarify... Do I need to cover that bottom plate in gypsum? a little tricky to get the vapor barrier in the right spot close ups of the installed module (still needs to be caulked around the edges) - you can sort of see the additional mineral wool on top of the module filling the remaining 2" airspace. Doing the ceiling this way is pretty much the only way I can imagine to MAXIMIZE the ceiling height - the "acoustical" ceiling is only 1-3/4" lower than the existing floor joists. :D The bottom of the grid joists is a bit lower around 3-3/4" lower than the existing floor joists.The ceiling skeleton looks like normal dimensional lumber. How far is the span? Did you get an engineers stamp or at least an email confirming that the dimensional lumber will hold the dead load?
my sketchup is not working on this computer so forgive the rough hand sketch but this is the basic idea of the ceiling grid + module.
Are you sure that 2x6s are rated to span the distance you have between walls, with that load, and the typical deflection used for studio ceilings? Also, I'd leave more than 1/4" gap between the existing joists and the top of the new sheathing: Firstly, there's no space for insulation there 7betwen existing joist and new sheathing), and secondly, even a tiny error in construction would create a flanking path and trash your isolation. As would slight swelling in the OSB / drywall due to humidity changes, temperature changes, or structural stresses over time. Even a slight warp that happens to develop in one of the joists could force the sheathing to bend up slightly by that 1/4"... Yes, it's a good idea to save as much space as you can, but not at the risk of losing all you isolation. Structures are not static: they move, settle, and change shape over time for many reasons, and you need to take that into account in your design. Leave enough space for structural movement, and also for insulation. Finally, you don't show how you plan to hold the drywall in place to the underside of the OSB... That's important. You can't just nail it there... - Stuart -forgive the rough hand sketch but this is the basic idea of the ceiling grid + module.
Hey Stuart. Thank for the reply!
Yes I'm sure that's the size my architect/engineer told me to use for that span. I can probably dig up the email and post it n here I'm mobile right now. I remember because I wanted to use 2x4 and he said no to that. I guess it's possible that I gave them the wrong weights for my load but I'm pretty certain on that as well I remember over estimating everything g to be on the safe side
Just looking on my own at joist span calculators it looks like it's ok as well even when I push the load up past what I will have it still says I'm ok. I guess it's not too late to go with 2x8's but it would be a pain. I'll triple check everything again but I know I double checked before I ordered the material.
As for how the gypsum is fastened to the osb, yes it's just screwed in with drywall screws. I figured this is ok since this is how the rest of my house and other houses I've seen built in NY and elsewhere is done? They just screw the gypsum to the bottom of the joists which are usually 16" oc Same as Walls. Maybe I'm missing something? I could always use cleats the same way I did the beef up if that is the suggested method? Are you thinking that the osb isn't meant to hold weight in that direction? That I can understand. The piece of osb is very narrow only 16" wide and the span between the frame 3" less - 13". This particular detail of the plan I did not get approval from my engineer. I could always redesign the modules so that the Gypsum is the same size as the osb and they both sit on top of the frame. That would mean I would have to use wood smaller that 2x3. Maybe 1x2? Or use cleats similar to the existing ceiling beef up?
As for the 1/4" gap, that is actually the measurement in the tightest spot. I guess either my floor is not 100% level, or my existing ceiling joists are not 100% level. Because in some areas the gap is actually greater than 1/4" probably 1/2" in some areas.
I think it would be a great pain to re-do all of this now so please let me know if what I described is ok or if I'm headed for disaster? Is there's any way to monitor the non-static nature of the structure as I'm building to see if it's heading in a bad direction? When I do the larger control room, I can make sure to leave a larger gap...
As for not being able to insulate the 1/4" gap you are correct I am not putting any insisting in that small space. I think 1/2" seems too small to try and fill as well no? I was not thinking. I would achieve 100% perfect full with the cavity? Is this small area a big issue?
Part of the awesomeness of inside out ceilings is their ability to have insulation in them. even with your 2x3 and drywall beef up eating up another 5/8" of that, it's leaving you with very little space for insulation. You should have 4" of insulation up there. You maybe should have used 2x8 for your skeleton and then 2x6 for your module frame to allow for a nice thick layer of insulation in the modules. Something to consider for your other room anyway! GregThat would mean I would have to use wood smaller that 2x3. Maybe 1x2?
What is the span there? From the photos, it seems to be quite a few feet...Yes I'm sure that's the size my architect/engineer told me to use for that span.
In other words, it's not the same! :) Think about it: As you say, all those "other places" attach their drywall to the bottom of the JOISTS... (which have 15" of empty air between them....) you want to attach yours to a flat piece of OSB... Not the same at all. If that was a valid way of doing it, then you could have done the same thing as you did for the "beefing up" between the joists above you. This situation is exactly the same as the "beefing up" situation: you have two small panels of sheathing that are in direct contact with each other but still need to act independently. If you screw them together, they can't act independently.As for how the gypsum is fastened to the osb, yes it's just screwed in with drywall screws. I figured this is ok since this is how the rest of my house and other houses I've seen built in NY and elsewhere is done? They just screw the gypsum to the bottom of the joists
:thu:I could always use cleats the same way I did the beef up if that is the suggested method?
Nope. Not a problem. It's about acoustics, not structures.Are you thinking that the osb isn't meant to hold weight in that direction?
What is up above you? That's the floor of a room above, right? So what happens when somebody walks across that floor? Or moves a heavy piece of furniture? Did you take into account the downward flexing of those joists under the load? For example, if that's an 8 foot span above you, and is designed for 1/360, then that's already more than 1/4" flexure, just from normal live loads... Plus, if you don't have a gap with insulation in it, then you don't have much of a damped MSM spring up there! Even if the joist never touches the OSB, there's only that 1/4" air gap there with zero damping in it, so any vibration in the joist would be easily transmitted across that gap and into the sheathing below...As for the 1/4" gap, that is actually the measurement in the tightest spot. I guess either my floor is not 100% level, or my existing ceiling joists are not 100% level. Because in some areas the gap is actually greater than 1/4" probably 1/2" in some areas.
See above comment...As for not being able to insulate the 1/4" gap you are correct I am not putting any insisting in that small space.
Do the math: What is the surface area of the bottom face of all those joists, vs. the surface area of the drywall in between? I'm betting those joists represent at least 10% of the entire surface area, probably more. Is 10% a large percentage? Will there even be much transmission across that gap? If you happen to have an old-school tuning fork laying around some place, you can test this yourself: Tap the tuning fork on something hard, and hold it 8" away from your ear, with a pillow in between (to represent the absorption). Now tap the tuning fork again and this time hold it 1/4" away from your ear, with nothing in between: only air. That's the difference in how much sound would be transmitted across the tiny uninsulated 1/4" gap, compared to how much sound is transmitted across the rest of the ceiling cavity (and this is not even considering MSM: just plain direct transmission). Draw your own conclusion about the difference in surface areas! Is loud transmission across 10% of the ceiling a big deal, compared to very quiet transmission across the other 90%? Do the tuning fork test, and you be the judge... :) It's your ceiling, so you are the only one that can decide if this will be acceptable for YOUR situation. Personally, if that was my place and I was shooting for high isolation, I'd want at least a 1" gap there, with insulation in it. But if you don't need high isolation in this room (going in both directions: in and also out), then you could leave it like that, as long as you are OK with the reduced isolation. - Stuart -I was not thinking. I would achieve 100% perfect full with the cavity? Is this small area a big issue?
Stuart! Thank you for the response!!
Ok so firstly I dug up the email from the architect and engineer. See photo below: He was actually the one who boldedthe 2x6, not me lol.
The span is a little less than 11'-0". About 10'-8". I believe the number I came up with was around 13psf for the load - I used 3 psf for gypsum 3 psf for OSB, 2 psf for 2x6's, 2 psf for 2x3's, 2 psf for insulation, 1 psf for fabric/fastners. (all which were overestimates) I was also unsure if i was getting my load calculations right (or didn't want to be responsible) so I just told the engineer what materials I was using and how, and he came up with the everything.What is the span there? From the photos, it seems to be quite a few feet...
I would have loved to put 4" of insulation/treatment in the inside out ceilings for sure! However, even if i went/go with 2x8's (or 2x10 for that matter) the bottom height would still be the same. See my beams go up inside the space between the existing floor joists. So I am always limited by the bottom of the existing floor joists. Upping the size of the 2x6 to 2x8 would not change anything acoustically, only add structural support. If I had more height to work with - I would have 100% done it the way you described. If I was to re-do ALL of the walls, and lower the ceiling by 2 or 3 inches, then yes I could do it this way. However, you'd barely be able to stand up straight without hunching over :(. Then once you get into door openings with 2x6 headers below the double top plate, you basically have a door that you have to crawl through to get into the room. I had to choose lesser of two evils here.You maybe should have used 2x8 for your skeleton and then 2x6 for your module frame to allow for a nice thick layer of insulation in the modules.
Independently? :shock: I don't think I am following? Did I do ALL MY WALLS WRONG TOO? I screwed the gypsum to the OSB? they are 100% directly fastened to eachother rigidly. I did NOT use green glue. Is green glue REQIURED? I know green glue is recommended often but I thought it was optional?? Why can I not have the gypsum screwed into the osb? I though the whole point was to make a massive leaf? I've been on here for 3 years and I dont even know how to build a wall! :cry: I thought the reason I used cleats for the "beef-up" was so that I didn't risk putting a nail through the sub-floor or pushing up any floor finishes above? Stuart, to be clear - I will 100% do this the right way as you described with the cleats, I just want to know if I missed something major and I'm doing all my walls wrong too?This situation is exactly the same as the "beefing up" situation: you have two small panels of sheathing that are in direct contact with each other but still need to act independently. If you screw them together, they can't act independently.
Ok yes 10% is a significant amount, I guess I was thinking the MSM system had more to do with Volume of the cavity. So yes, 10% if you are only looking at the surface area, but when you look at the cubic volume of the overhead cavity, we are talking like less than 1%? Just a visual glance at one of the bays you can see that it's about 99% filled, not 90% filled. Either way, this point makes a lot of sense so I think I will be increasing the gap in the control room. I will also post some photos tonight of the actual gap with a tape measure, I don't think it is as tight as I made it seem. I think maybe in one spot the gap is 1/4", the rest is way closer to 1/2" and in some spots its more than 1/2".Do the math: What is the surface area of the bottom face of all those joists, vs. the surface area of the drywall in between? I'm betting those joists represent at least 10% of the entire surface area, probably more. Is 10% a large percentage?
As far as the reduced isolation I'm starting to lose track of all the many many many places where I have settled for (slight loss in isolation) over and over again. Single doors, less MSM distance than I would have liked, AC openings, electrical conduits, no green glue...... I'm wondering if I'll have any isolation at all once these slight losses add up to a big loss in isolation :|then you could leave it like that, as long as you are OK with the reduced isolation.
So the existing floor joists are not 2x6. They are a bit thicker/wider, I think they are true size 2" x 8" - I'll double check that tonight as well. They don't deflect as much as a 2x6 would. I did not do any formal tests but I did have about 5 people standing in the living room (which is fully furnished) directly over this room and did not see any thing.The gap seemed to be roughly the same, with 5 people standing in the room above. I realize this is not something you can really see without specifically checking for it so I will do a more formal test.What is up above you? That's the floor of a room above, right? So what happens when somebody walks across that floor? Or moves a heavy piece of furniture? Did you take into account the downward flexing of those joists under the load? For example, if that's an 8 foot span above you, and is designed for 1/360, then that's already more than 1/4" flexure, just from normal live loads...