If anyone can give me a hand with this, it would be appreciated because I have to order special material as soon as I can. Especially for question 1, 2 and 4. Thanks. I appreciate the help.
Andre
Design Studio in Basement
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 18758.
Hi Andre - sharing my thoughts with you (below in red) while you wait for the experts to chime in....
OKAY!!! Wow!! Now I feel like I have a plan! The direction of the whole thing is pretty clear now for the floor, the ceiling and the two new walls (the other two are against the outside of the house, so I'm planning to leave them as is). 1) Since the new walls will be built up from the cement floor, do you think that pads underneath are still necessary? Or should I use them above the wall to separate from the new ceiling resting on that wall? http://www.acoustiguard.com/Iso-Sill-Plate-Isolation/ I don't believe you need to add anything under your walls other than three beads of acoustical caulk. Similarly you don't need to do anything above the wall with pads to decouple from the ceiling if (as you previously suggested) you are framing the ceiling on top of these new walls. One thing you should make sure your design includes at the top of your wall assemblies is Firestop. Not sure if you have looked at this already but be sure to if not. 2) As for acoustic sealant, do you think I need something special or any kind from my local store is fine? Here are a few I know. http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=92 http://www.acoustiguard.com/Green-Glue- ... g-Sealant/ http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=78 I used bulk standard Sheetrock brand acoustical sealant on my build and found it to be exceptional. I did try another brand too that was a little more difficult to apply, but they all work much the same way so long as it is indeed acoustical caulk that you are looking at. Nothing else will do the job for sealing your gaps. 3) For my floors, I also thought of Floating Vinyl. What do you prefer between this and a Laminate floor ? Would any type of underlay be a good thing? wood / laminate is pretty much the standard afaik and esthetically is very pleasing for musicians too - after all we are artists :) I think Stuart had mentioned that the thicker foam underlay would provide better thermal and acoustical benefit. 4) I also have two water pipes following the upper corner of the two walls that are against the outside of the house. I'm not too worried about them because I only hear them when the washing machine and kitchen sink upstairs are functioning, so I can easily control that. I would still prefer to isolate them anyway. How should I approach that. This is what I found: http://www.acoustiguard.com/fire-rated- ... materials/ http://www.acoustiguard.com/Barrier-mat ... ded-vinyl/ can you post a photo or two? A picture is worth a thousand words so they say. Likely you would need to enclose the pipes somehow but we would be able to better advise knowing a little more about them. One thing to consider here is that your sound will travel both ways, and while you may not be concerned about the water sound making it into your rooms since it only occurs when the water is running - you may need to consider if it will transmit sound from your room into the upstairs. If you properly seal and enclose them it shouldn't be an issue though. 5) As for electricity, I want each duplex to have its own connection to the Electric box. From Jim Pavett's videos on Macprovideo.com, he seems to be saying that we should only use individual cables for positive, neutral and ground. He also seems to be saying that each outlet of the duplex should also have its own ground all going through their own metal conduit. But I'm not sure how to do that. All cables I see in stores have at least two wires. So is there something I'm missing? This is what he says: All outlets have an isolated ground wire, making a full home run back to the circuit box. This means not only the duplex outlet, but each individual outlet of the duplex. In other words, two separate sets of wires running back to the circuit box. That's a lot of wires. Some Hi-Fi guys also tell me I should use gauge 10 cables plugged into 20 amp breakers in the box. How should I organize all this? I am not suitably equipped to even begin to answer this questions sorry :? You may want to go take a read through Lilith's thread. Stuart gave some detailed insight into star grounding there. Thanks once again!
Hi,
I've been looking on the net for Firestop, but I'm still not sure what it is. Anyone could point to a link, picture or product?
Here are also the pipe and Frames I have.
I have a small frame that is open on top with a small water pipe inside.
The larger frame has the same pipe continuing and is mostly empty.
We were thinking of cutting that corner wall at a 45 degree angle.
Just wondering what would be the best approach for that.
Thanks
Oups, that was me up there. I just forgot to log in I guess.
Hi Andre,
as for the pipes, andy is right... your acoustic isolation is bi-directional... if you can hear the water sometimes, that means whenever your making noise that sound is going to travel through the pipe and out of your studio... this may not be a concern or it might be... if it is a concern, you just need to treat this the same as the rest of the studio isolation and frame out and around the pipes, with two layers of drywall, or whatever density the rest of your room will be. if you want to acheive that density using one of the products you found, like mass loaded vinyl, then thats fine, but it will probably be way more expensive than just a soffit and drywall.4) I also have two water pipes following the upper corner of the two walls that are against the outside of the house. I'm not too worried about them because I only hear them when the washing machine and kitchen sink upstairs are functioning, so I can easily control that. I would still prefer to isolate them anyway. How should I approach that. This is what I found:
On a positive note, like all good questions on this forum, there's mostly an answer to what your asking about! the electric... on a negative note... you will need to do a bit of reading to get your answer... but you should read through the threads linked to below that go very involved about isolated/star grounding. This thread contains multiple links to additional threads, all of which is important in understand WHY you are asking about the isolated ground... if your doing the work, your gonna need to understand this... if your having an electrician do the work... your still gonna need to understand it to make sure they are doing it correctly and according to the specs you need. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2206 don't be discouraged, post additional questions as you need. cheers kevin5) As for electricity, I want each duplex to have its own connection to the Electric box. From Jim Pavett's videos on Macprovideo.com, he seems to be saying that we should only use individual cables for positive, neutral and ground. He also seems to be saying that each outlet of the duplex should also have its own ground all going through their own metal conduit. But I'm not sure how to do that. All cables I see in stores have at least two wires. So is there something I'm missing? This is what he says: All outlets have an isolated ground wire, making a full home run back to the circuit box. This means not only the duplex outlet, but each individual outlet of the duplex. In other words, two separate sets of wires running back to the circuit box. That's a lot of wires. Some Hi-Fi guys also tell me I should use gauge 10 cables plugged into 20 amp breakers in the box. How should I organize all this?
I don't really mind about sound coming out. Kids have been used to me making noise since they were babies. It's more about sound coming in for recording.
I'm wondering if Mass loaded vinyl would be the right approach or just close the box with some Roxul in it?
http://www.acoustiguard.com/fire-rated- ... materials/
http://www.acoustiguard.com/Barrier-mat ... ded-vinyl/
I'll start to read more about star grounding…
Thanks
I have done both, and they both work well, but deciding on which way to go depends on the situation. For example, one place I did MLV is in the ceiling above my small home theater: The soil pipe form the upstairs bathrooms runs through that area, and was creating a lot of noise. I didn't have any easy way of boxing it in, since the ceiling there (bathroom floor) is concrete slab. So no stud bays. Also, I was very tight on space, since the ceiling is already low in that area. So I wrapped the pipe in mineral wool, wrapped that in two layers of MLV sealed up tight, and then put in the drywall ceiling, with the top surface of the ceiling just an inch below the MLV, with an inch of fiberglass on top. The result is silence. You cannot hear the water at all now, and no sound from the speakers gets back up through the pipes. However, if I would have had stud bays up there with the pipe fully contained in one bay, I probably would have just filled that bay with mineral wool, and sealed it off with drywall held in place with cleats, as high up as possible, then hang the ceiling below that. MLV is not such nice stuff to work with: it is not very strong, and tears easily, and it is hard to hold on place while you work, since it wants to unwrap itself all the time. It is also hard to seal it up at the edges. It is also expensive! So if you can figure a way to seal up your pipes without MLV, then that¿s what I would do. My main reason for using it as above, was because of the lack of stud bays, and because I could easily shape it to whatever form I needed, following the twists and turns of the pipe. - Stuart -I'm wondering if Mass loaded vinyl would be the right approach or just close the box with some Roxul in it?
Hi Stuart,
My contractor will be starting next monday but I don't know if I will be ready since I may need to order special material ahead.
1) So I'm wondering if I need to put something underneath and on top of the walls. Do you think that pads underneath are still necessary since they will be built up from the cement floor now? http://www.acoustiguard.com/Iso-Sill-Plate-Isolation/ Or would Ethafoam be a good solution?
2) Andy also mentioned something about Firestop, but I'm not sure what is that. Do I need that? If so, do I find this at my local store or is that something special I need to order?
3) I also have two water pipes following the upper corner of the two walls that are against the outside of the house. So I'm wondering how I should approach that. Do I need Mass-Loaddd Vinyl for that or this type of product?
http://www.acoustiguard.com/fire-rated- ... materials/
http://www.acoustiguard.com/Barrier-mat ... ded-vinyl/
Thanks for your help
Sorry. For some reason I didn't see your answer above just before posting. Thanks for #3.
Questions # 1 and 2 still remains though.
Thank you so much
In my case, the pipe will be IN the studio as the picture can show up there. No ceiling will cover i, so that's why i'm hesitant.
Hi Andre,
Firestop is not a product you can buy, but rather a design element you need to create and build in independently framed walls. Rod details it quite nicely in his book and if you haven't already read this I would urge you to do so. It will really help explain some of these things to your contractor and you can show him the diagrams (I even lent my copy to my electrician and framing guy).
Essentially you are ensuring that your cavity between the two walls does not become a chimney, whilst maintaining isolation between the two structures. Keep in mind that fire could spread up insight your walls to the upstairs without you even knowing for some time. Additionally if your basement is really well soundproofed your family upstairs may be in danger without you knowing, or you could end up trapped!
I'm no expert on the how-to, but I followed the detail in Rod's book and had them constructed with sheetrock. You can see the pics in my old build thread. There are other ways too as far as I know.
Hope that helps - good luck!
Andy
Sorry for my ignorance, but how can I find your Build thread and Rod's book you mention?
Thanks for help
Hey Andre,
Rod's book can be found at most online retailers and is called "home recording studios build it like the pros" his full name is Rod Gervais.
My (far less useful and informative) build thread, in particular the page that has photos of the Firestop details is here.
Cheers,
Andy.
Thanks Andy,
I bought he book and I'll get it by Monday.
Also, I guess this is the picture you are referring to right?
Because there's a small 2 X 4 structure above the main structure?
That's the idea?
Oups! That's the picture I'm referring to.
Yep that's the picture. What looks like 2x4's are the ceiling joists - the Firestop is the 5 or so inch wide piece of drywall that is placed up against the first wall framing so that once the second wall is framed and finished with drywall - it will have a "lid" so to speak which will prevent fire from spreading up through the walls.
You won't regret your investment in Rod's book I promise you - it sounds like it'll be here just in time!
Thanks Andy, I understand now!
My first wall is already build though. I'm only removing the first layer of gypse in order to build my wall correctly, so I'm not sure how it's made up there, but I'll submit this to my contractor for sure. I understand that this is not for acoustical purposes, but to prevent fire from spreading between walls and this is obviously important.
Thanks
Doesn't that connect the two walls though, thus defeating the purpose of having space between the two walls?
The drywall doesn't touch the other side: there's a small gap around the edge, filled with acoustic caulk. so the drywall is nailed down on one side, but "floats" on the other side. - Stuart -Yes, but walls can be covered with absorbtive material, windows not
Stuart
This is was the plan for the ceiling (see below), but after reading Rod's book:
a) Do you think it would be better to add a layer or two of gyproc between #2 and #3?
b) Also, is pink fibreglass fine instead of Safe n' Sound rock wool for the ceiling?
c) Would it make sense to replace the last layer of ⅝" gyproc (#9) by a ½" Gyproc?
Thanks
Andre
1-Remove the existing Gyproc ceiling
2-Make sure the studs of the walls are disconnected with upstairs
3-Put all the Roxul Safe n' Sound we can up there between the studs in the midst the wires
4- Space
5-Build a new stud structure resting on the new walls on the side with Roxul again
6-MDF
7-Gyproc ⅝"
test the noise level, then if needed, add:
8-Green Glue
9-Gyproc ⅝"
Hi Andre,
Sorry for the delay in response to your question.
While it may look like it is connected in the photo the trick is to keep them isolated from one another. I'm assuming your book has arrived now so you should be able to see the detailed diagram in there but do let us know if it's still not clear. I'll take a crack at your other questions too and I'm sure Stuart will chime in if further clarification is needed.Doesn't that connect the two walls though, thus defeating the purpose of having space between the two walls?
a) adding beef up definitely will not hurt. It will definitely help with impact noise from the above space and by doing this you are increasing the mass of the other side of your MSM layer which will increase your overall isolation. Don't forget to seal every hole in every joist bay too - you will be going through a lot of acoustical caulk and backer rod! b) I used it in my last build and it worked just fine. I recall others recommending it was perfectly fine not to mention significantly cheaper. Just be sure not to have it so thick that it ends up connected your two leafs together - you want to make sure it remains the Spring in your MSM. c) I wouldn't. Having the extra mass of the 5/8" will help with the lower frequencies which are the ones that are always harder to contain. Cheers! Andy.a) Do you think it would be better to add a layer or two of gyproc between #2 and #3? b) Also, is pink fibreglass fine instead of Safe n' Sound rock wool for the ceiling? c) Would it make sense to replace the last layer of ⅝" gyproc (#9) by a ½" Gyproc?
Thanks Andy,
Do you know also what is the point of adding all that backer Rod? Is it for acoustical reasons?
And about the "temporary" nails Rod mentions in his book to hold the ceiling layers…
does he mean that we should remove them? If so, how is the thing suppose to hold in place?
My contractor would prefer to just leave them in place or at least the last one in place.
Thanks
Andre
Hi Andre,
The purpose of the backer rod is to ensure a two point connection between the caulk and the surface - this is they way that it is designed to work. A three point connection will not work acoustically as far as I am aware. If you search here on the forum you will find multiple discussions on the theory behind this.
The temporary nails can be left in place. Ultimately the weight is supported by the cleats that you add around the bottom perimeter (attached to the joists).
Cheers!
Andy
Stuart or anyone,
Can you tell me what you mean by "cleats"? English is my second language so a google image would be great.
AndreIt would be better if you could add more mass by cutting strips of 5/8" drywall to fit between the studs on the wall cavity side of that drywall, holding it in place with cleats, and sealing around the edges with acoustic caulk.
Cleats are just small strips of wood nailed sideways into the joists, and they support the drywall. Nothing complicated! If you search the forum for "cleats", you should probably find photos somewhere, but there's nothing magical about them: A simple piece of wood, several inches long (or maybe longer) maybe a 1/2" to 1" wide, nailed sideways to the faces of the joists, with the drywall resting on top. (But considering your nationality, I won't confuse you by talking about French cleats, which are different... :) French cleats are also useful in studios for mounting absorption panels and other treatment devices to the studio wall, but not the same as ordinary cleats that you use for holding drywall in place....) :) - Stuart -Stuart or anyone, Can you tell me what you mean by "cleats"? English is my second language so a google image would be great.