HELP : Trying to get myself out of an aweful mess

Whats up everyone. I've learned a great deal from this forum....though I'm far from professional when it comes to building....I do know that I just got screwed by the contractors that I hired to build out my new spot. The work itself was good, for the most part, however Im suffering from the typical 'they didn't do it right the first time' issue. Here's the short of it, all the rooms sound/work great except the drum room. It sounds amazing inside, but too much is getting out of the room to the outside. I will attatch a couple of pictures. The interior walls are treated and are serving their purpose, the ceiling was dropped and has a layer of durarock, then about 4 inch air gap with rockwool, then another layer of sheetrock. Its doing pretty well also. The problem are the two walls they DIDNT touch. Not only did they not touch them, the walls are exterior walls. Everything is ok except Drums and bass (the usual culprits). The only thing done to the 2 walls that im speaking about was they closed up the windows . a layer of metal then rockwool then sheetrock. ( you can see the raised squared on the wall in the pictures, thats where the windows were) you can still hear alot of sound coming from them. no highs or mids, again, just the usual culprits in the low freq / vibrations but its traveling. i know i will not get 'sound proofed' room without a ton of cash and a literal room in a room pretty much. in this situation, my question is this : the ceiling is decoupled and 2 of the 4 walls are treated/build properly...the 2 exterior walls are just normal house type walls. what would be the best way to finish out the room to handle that last bit of sound getting out. its not aweful but should deff be better . Would you do 2x6 with staggered studs and 2 layers of sheetrock/rockwool or just 1/2 sprayed with rubber and framed to existing beams then add another layer or two of sheetrock and rockwool to that? im almost tapped out on cash so i need the most cost effective way (though i know none are super cheap when doing this hah) . any help would be greatly appreciated !!! (p.s. dont mind the superchunks. was just messing around with an idea)

Ttt

Hi there "toneaddiction". Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :) That said, I'm having a hard time picturing how the room is done as a whole: which wall done how, with what materials, etc. Maybe you could do a clear diagram, showing the details of each wall, and the floor, and the ceiling? But in general, you cannot treat just one or two sides of a room. Isolation is an "all or nothing" proposition. It makes no sense to just isolate one or two sides of the room. Sound is like water: it takes the easiest way out. If you have two good walls, and two bad, it will escape through the bad ones, and ignore the good ones. That's just the way sound is. Also, since this is a drum booth, it needs much more attention to design and construction detail than other rooms, since drums are the hardest instrument of all to isolate anyway, as they are the loudest (by far) and put out a lot of energy in low frequencies (which are the hardest to stop). You probably don't want to hear this, but most likely the only solution that will work, is to take down the existing walls and re-do them properly, as fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM systems, tuned below the lowest frequency of concern.

they closed up the windows . a layer of metal then rockwool then sheetrock.

That sounds like a thee-leaf system to me! :shock: glass - metal - sheetrock. Not a good combination if you want low frequency isolation.... Did they understand that this was going to be a drum room? That would have been OK for a vocal booth, but NOT for a drum booth- 3-leaf is always bad for lows. Everyone knows that. Maybe they didn't understand that this room was for drums?

what would be the best way to finish out the room to handle that last bit of sound getting out.

sadly, your only real option is to undo some of what was done wrongly there, and re-do it correctly, with a properly decoupled inner-leaf, good seals, and enough mass for the job.

Would you do 2x6 with staggered studs and 2 layers of sheetrock/rockwool

something like that, but not without first finding out more about those walls, and how they are built! You might already have a flimsy coupled 2-leaf there, in which case you need to get one leaf off and beef up the other before you build your new inner-leaf (which will be single stud but decoupled, not staggered stud! save you some money there...). - Stuart -

S

Stuart Thank you so much or the response. The guys had good résumé and seems to know what was up BEFORE the project but what we designed and what i got are two diff things hah. As far as the walls, i understand its all or nothing but the only reason i say those walls is because the rest of the walls are internal and it's ok if sound passes there. The exterior walls were the only two not touched. They were pre-build (it's an extension off of a house) so they are cinder block/normal insulation/Sheetrock) those two are the culprits. I can hear it. The other interior walls were built during the studio addition and those two were already framed/built properly.why they find touch the remaining EXTERIOR problematic walls is beyond me an you I'm sure as well hah. So it's down to the 3 leaf windows (which i already knew we're awful, u can hear the resonance on the outside of the biking from them) and the two walls on the picture the one at the top of the picture and the one to the left side. What's the best way to treat those 5x5 windows. I clearly need to rip out what they did. I'm pretty clear on most but windows for bass isolation still bewilder me Frame it to the already existing beams w 1x2 and rubber :| spray/Rockwell/Sheetrock them? Or builds free standing wall on front w 2x4? Or the method of poking holes and filling w insulation? I'm just trying to focus on these two walls. I know to you the may seem silly but trust me, that's where ALL my issues keeping me from work are coming from. Ceiling ws an issue so they dropped it w 1x2/rubber spray on them to the existing beams, then dura rock, the. 2x4 frame all around w air gap / rock wool and Sheetrock. They took care of 90% of the ceiling so now those windows and walls are just shooting it right now where we made the ceiling send the sound/freq's to. Sorry if its hard to understand, doing the best i can from my phone. Thanks again my man!! I'll take care of the profile info/rules right now

also, the room with issues is about 18x12 and the ceiling slopes from 8ft to about 12ft. the only major issues are bass freq getting out and as I said, its deff the windows (that we now know they built with 3 leaves, glass/metal/rockwool/sheetrock , SMH) and the two un-treated walls that were pre-existing before the renovation/build. They already ate up my budget so im just trying to find out how much it will take to finish those windows properly and the two exterior walls. I have about 1000$ l can pull out but am pretty broke to getting completely screwed by the contractors. i think i can do it for that, just need you guys expertise on the best method since i know there are several. Its not 'call the cops' loud outside and what they did deffinately helped....just not to the degree it should be. Just need to tame down those kick/bass guitar etc freq's that are still transfering from the windows and 2 exterior walls i mentioned. sorry for the long msgs, trying to do my best to make it understandable and be able to be visualized. i can engineer/produce/get tones all day, but building is deff not my forte :)

If you are certain that it is ONLY the windows that are the culprit, then definitely that's the place to attack. But from what you say, I'm not so convinced that they are all that is wrong... I suspect that after you fix the windows, you are still going to have issues. Anyway, I can't tell you what to do: I can just tell you what I would do, if that were my place, and I had a very friendly bank manager as well... :) Yes, I would rip out the window plugs, and also take off the "insulation(sheetrock" from the "they are cinder block/normal insulation/Sheetrock" that you mentioned, so you are down to bare cinderblock. Then I would either seal that with a good quality masonry sealant paint, or even better plaster over it (mortar, stucco, whatever you call it), to make sure that it is sealed airtight, and has good mass. Then I would carefully examine that window, to see how thick the glass is, how it is fitted on place, and if it is operable or not. If operable, I would remove the mechanism and block it all tightly in place. Then ether way (operable or not), I would seal around the edges of the glass with good quality flexible caulk, and do the same around the framing, where it meets the walls: That guy has to be totally hermetic, absolutely air-tight. Then, depending on how thick the glass is, and how the window is framed, I would probably end up stuffing a panel of 703 up against the glass, then building a proper plug that hopefully fits into the frame, or if not then on top of it, with rubber seals around the edges, and major mass on it: at least a couple of layers of 3/4" plywood, with Green Glue in between, screwed into the frame and/or into the walls (tapcon?), and carefully sealed with copious amounts of acoustic sealant. You have no choice but to do three-leaf here, but it has to be done the right way: with most of the mass on the middle leaf, and large air gaps, with damping. So that plug needs lots of mass on it. Then I would put up a new stud frame a couple of inches away from all that newly-plastered wall with its newly plugged window, and not touching it at any point! In fact, since this is a drum room, I would probably bid that wall "inside out", with a layer of 3/4" OBS or plywood first (on the studs), then a layer of 5/8" drywall over that, with Green Glue in between, leaving an air cavity of at least 6 inches, and filling it with fiberglass insulation (30 kg/m2 / 2 pcf). Then I would seal that inner-leaf very carefully to the rest of the inner-leaf, making sure that no part of the entire inner-leaf touches any part of the outer leaf. That should do the trick! At least, that would be my approach. - Stuart -

Just need to tame down those kick/bass guitar etc freq's that are still transfering from the windows and 2 exterior walls i mentioned.

:) Yup. And those are, indeed, the hardest of all to tame! It's real easy to get 60 or 70 db of isolation up at the top of the spectrum (splash cymbals, for example). A lot harder to get it for the mid range (crash, ride, high toms), and actually impossible to get it for the lows (snare, kick, floor tom). The best you can hope for in the lows is maybe 30 dB of isolation, give or take a few. The lower the frequency, the harder it is. The only way to effectively deal with lows at low cost, is with a two-leaf MSM wall as outlined above, tuned low enough that the resonant frequency is no more than half of the lowest frequency that needs isolating. As outlined above, you should get pretty good isolation in the lows. There's enough mass and air gap to tune it down low. - Stuart -

Hah, man Im so screwed. That is EXACTLY what i told them to do from the beginning with the older man with 'experience' continueing to tell me 'it will be fine, this will work, trust me, ive been doing this years" yadayada. wellllll, clearly it did not work and everything you are saying makes complete sense (to a point since im far from an acoustic professional as far as sound/isolation goes). what was to be a week long job turned into now what is over 1 month, ive lost clients, contracts, and now my whole budget to a job that doesn't work and I could have prob built with my buddies for a case of beer and materials. The worst part, If i sue, all i'll get is more aweful work from people that have no idea what they are doing and at that point will prob not do a good job at all. gotta love it. moral of the story kiddies, DONT LISTEN TO ANYONE. do your own research and then FORCE someone to build what you tell them to. I am fairly intelligent and never thought this kind of thing would happen. The worst is i kick myself in the face for 'letting' it happen and for me buying into the whole 'it will be fine', 'it will work great' nonsense. I guess with around 1500-2k$ i cant get very far here since i can't do the work myself. At this point I guess Ill have to address the windows the best that I can and hopefully have enough to atleast beef up the already existing layer BC i deff can't afford to strip it back all the way to outside foundation/cinder block at this point. i don't need it silent or insanely isolated. just enough to keep the lows from traveling quite as far as they are right now. Stuart, I now you are a perfectionist and like things done the 'right' way....but with my given situation and limitations, what would you suggest for the non treated walls if i cant strip them back to bare? I prob can round up enough cash to pay someone to do it and buy materials for that and the windows. next time i move, i'll make sure its done in a whole diff manor but for now, i need to get to work and stop losing my arse :)

I guess "frustration" would be the word that best describes your mood right now? But more along the lines of "hot, raging, blood-thirsty, fire-and-brimstone, let's nuke the bastard" frustration? :) I hear ya. It might not be as bad as you are painting it. At least things didn't get as bad as this guy: viewtopic.php?t=17363 He had the exact same problem as you do: a contractor who swore he knew how to isolate a drum booth ... "trust me, this will work..." :!: .... Read his story, so you see how terribly he suffered, then you won't feel so bad yourself! :) Fortunately, we helped him get back on track, and he's a happy camper now. So, with 2 grand you probably do have enough to do this right, and much of it you can do yourself, if you can swing a hammer safely, and use a saw while retaining all your fingers and toes, and not ending up in the hospital. You can save a lot of money on labor if you do things yourself. Some parts you might need to bring in help, but most you can probably do. The materials will probably come in under US$ 1000, at a rough guess, and you can probably re-use some of the stuff you take off, if you work carefully. I guess the big issue here is time: this is not exactly a week-end DIY job! This is going to take several days at best, working all day: Which means that both you and your room are not pulling in money while you are busy beating the wall into submission. But even doing a not-very-effective "patch" job is going to take time. So it's your call on that: spend a lot of time and do it partly, with mediocre results, or spend even more time and get good results. Only you can make that call, since only you know how badly you need that room to be producing money, albeit not under optimum conditions. So, if you choose to go the "faster, cheaper, but not very effective" route, here's what I would do: kill it with mass. Seal that wall as it is right now with a coat of paint (anything will do: you just want to get it airtight). Seal all cracks too, even if it looks like it might not be a crack, seal it anyway. Air tight seals are key to isolation. Then screw some 3/4" plywood (or OSB, or even better MDF) to that entire wall, and seal all the joints with backer rod and acoustic caulk. Then do a second layer over the first, but offset from it, so the joints between sheets do not line up from layer to layer. You could even rotate the panels: do one layer with the panels standing up vertically, the next with them running across horizontally. Now test: if that is enough extra isolation (it probably won't be) then fine: add your acoustic treatment and you are done! If not, then add a layer of 5/8" drywall (also offset) and test again. That's about as good as it will ever get, with a coupled mass-only solution. Beyond that, you are into diminishing returns. However! Big "but" here: the above assumes that the building structure can handle all that extra weight! You need to check that with a structural engineer: There will be many, many hundreds of pounds of mass in that extra stuff, so you must make certain that the structure can handle it safely. And as I implied at the start: this probably won't solve your problem entirely, but it might take the edge off enough to be workable. I would also build a drum riser for your drums: in cases like this, it is essential to get as much isolation between the drums and the building as possible. A simple drum riser will do that, and it won't break the bank: two panels of 2" OC-703 laid flat on the floor side by side (to make an 8' x 8' base), and two sheets of 3/4" plywood on top (also side by side, but rotated 90°) then another two sheets of 3/4" play on top of those, rotated 90° again, screwed and glued. Done! Simple, cheap, effective.

(next time i move, i'll make sure its done in a whole diff manor but for now,)

Yup! And come here to the forum FIRST, to get your design done right, long before you even think about lifting a hammer... :) Studio building is about 90% design, 10% actual building.... If you want it done right.... My 0.02... - Stuart -

stuart, thanks so much for the help and guidance. I will deffinately be sticking to the forum and the 'right' way to do things from here on out while i fix this mess. I'd read that guys horror story previously, its actually how i found this site on a search hah. I believe his contractors had in the deal that they had to fix it/re do it if it didn't work though, yes? In my case, the guys spent all the $ on materials, didn't make a dime and then just half assed it when they 'finished' and havn't been back since. i could go after them, but as i said, it would only end in more aweful work and stress i don't need. Im going to have my buddy come by this weekend and help me asses the situation based on the suggestions you made. he is alot more handy than I am so im thinking i can get him to help for some free recording time :) that way im just stuck for the materials which will make this do-able. Do you recomment the sound clips/resiliant channels? ive read good and bad. some say its the BEST, some say it still doesnt do much for the low end. If i went for the demo/rebuild of those walls down to the first pre existing frame , any idea general ball park what material cost would be to do it the 'right' way as you mentioned before with starting from the bare inside frame/cinder block outer wall. the dimentions are 18 feet long down the one wall and 8 feet high, the other wall is about 12ft across and starts at 8 foot heigh on the left side, pitching up to 12 feet on its right side. i may be able to pull it off if i don't have to boot a contractor type price range for labor. me and a few guys could save a ton and maybe do it 'properly' this time around and not have to just hang/bulk up for mass. and any links that you know of for what method you'd use for re-doing those two walls? might save me having to pester the forum or search because im thinking you've prob answered this a billion times and seem to really know your way around this . again, i really really appreciate it brotha. ill deff post through the process and document it all.

my case, the guys spent all the $ on materials, didn't make a dime and then just half assed it when they 'finished' and havn't been back since. i could go after them, but as i said, it would only end in more aweful work and stress i don't need.

Not worth the hassle, very likely. You'd lose more on legal fees than you ever got back, and that's assuming you even win... Unless there's a water-tight contract here, it's just your word against his, about how much isolation he promised and how much you got. I would go the more subtle route: spread the word. I'm sure you know a LOT of people who might know lots MORE that might need a contractor one day... it might be helpful if they all knew who to avoid... just sayin' .... :)

Do you recomment the sound clips/resiliant channels? ive read good and bad. some say its the BEST, some say it still doesnt do much for the low end.

They do work, and the can do a great job, but probably not in your case, due to the way things are built. They might be possible, but it depends on which route you go, and what you actually have, in terms of how things are built. If you get sound clips then you don't need resilient channel: sound clips work with hat channel. Resilient channel is another alternative that works all by itself, without clips. Resilient channel and hat channel look similar, but they are very different acoustically. Hat channel needs clips and works better, resilient channel works alone and is cheaper.

If i went for the demo/rebuild of those walls down to the first pre existing frame , any idea general ball park what material cost would be to do it the 'right' way

Hard to say, since I don't know how much materials cost in your area. A quick trip to home depot with your DIY buddy, and a chat with some of the people there, will get you on the right track for pricing. But here's some rough figuring for ya: "18 feet long down the one wall and 8 feet high," = 144 square feet. A "standard" sheet of drywall / plywood / OSB / MDF is 4' x 8', which is 32 square feet, so you'll need 5 sheets of whichever per layer for that wall (they don't normally sell half sheets!). Assume one layer of 3/4" OSB or drywall, plus one layer of 5/8" drywall, so 5 sheets of each.

the other wall is about 12ft across and starts at 8 foot heigh on the left side, pitching up to 12 feet

Take the average: that's about 120 square feet there, so that's another 4 panels of each. You also need about half an 8 foot stud per linear foot of wall, give or take a bit, so since you have about 30 feet of wall, you'll need about 15 studs. But get more than that! Things never work out exactly, people make mistakes, and there is always some waste. You'll also need longer studs for the 12' section, or build it up in two parts, so take that into account too. So it looks like around 20 studs, 10 sheets of OSB / plywood, 10 sheets of drywall, drywall nails, backer rod, caulk (lots of caulk! and it must be the type that never hardens, always stays flexible and rubbery), plus about 600 square feet of insulation (either 2 PCF fiberglass, or 3 PCF mineral wool, whichever is cheaper). Plus whatever you decide to use to seal up the cinderblock, plus whatever you need to plug the window. (Plus a case of beer for your buddy!) So quote all of that at Home Depot, add about 20% "fudge factor", and you should be reasonably close. But! And this is another one of those big "buts": you might find "surprises" hiding behind the existing finish surfaces, once you take them off, so do budget some extra to deal with those. It's actually those "surprises" that eat up your time and your budget, rather than the stuff you planned for. Whenever you are dealing with existing walls and ceilings that you can't see into, always assume that Murphy got there before you did, and left a "gift" for you... :) It might turn out that there's some other issue that is also leaking sound, hidden in there, and you never would have suspected it...

me and a few guys could save a ton and maybe do it 'properly' this time around and not have to just hang/bulk up for mass.

There's nothing too complicated in this: It is all standard building materials, standard tools, etc. The only thing that is different is HOW you put it all together: that's what matters. So if you have a couple of buddies that know there way around a tool box, and are also willing to listen to instructions to do things a different way than normal, then you are probably fine. And doing it right sure beats mass-law: mass-law is not your friend.

im thinking you've prob answered this a billion times

:) Probably somewhere around there, give or take a few hundred million! :) This might help: viewtopic.php?t=2125 It's the closest thing to a FAQ page that we have on the forum. Lot's of useful stuff there... just not very well organized, and some of the external links don't work any more... I should clean it up one day, I guess... If you don't find what you are looking for there, then feel free to ask. - Stuart -

Stuart: AGAIN, thank you so much! we are going to look at it today when my buddy comes by. Plan to start tomorrow. Ill deff take pictures and post them as we go so others that end up in this terrible situation can see the DIY fixes hah. As far as OSB or sheetrock...would you personally do sheetrock/sheetrock or OSB/sheetrock ? you mentioned either was ok...either significantly better? all i can find at home depot here in OSB is 7/16 and 1/2" . either of those work or strictly 3/4? let me know on that and ill be picking up materials tonight. -randall

also, im not seeing 3/4" OSB or drywall on lowes or home depot sites. maybe a lumber yard or is there a substitution? also, i have a couple pieces of durarock left. would that be a better outter layer to replace the sheetrock for the window plugs? i have enough to do the two windows in the corner with that atleast. may have to do the other thats much further away with sheetrock....or should i just go all sheetrock to keep it the same from window to window for isolation/freq response etc?

Stuart , I thank you for the links. that was a wealth of knowledge. from the charts/reading and photos that i saw, i think i have come up with something i can a) do/have done and b) afford. going to start this tomorrow ! ill take pictures and post them as i go. Parden the diagram/drawing, i made it in paint but i think the design works for the walls. For the window plugs, i found several links useful and think i will go with 2 leaf design. frame within the sill to hold materials etc. layers as follows : glass, 2 layers sheetock (1/2 or 3/4 and a 5/8) , then rockwool/airgap , two more layers of sheetrock (again 1/2" or 3/4" and a 5/8" piece) then prob fasten absorbers to side that is inside the drum room. the outside leaf will be a bit larger and will overlap the whole window to the outer all. it will be permanant so caulk and putting rubber under the outer edge so to make a seal/gasket type of deal should be ok, yes? for the rubber that id need to seal the part overlapping the window sill, what could i use for that? rubber weather stripping or ?? another question before i start. for the top and bottom of the newly framed walls we will be putting up, how do i tie them into the floor/celing? the celing is already drop celing and is decoupled so going into its sub frame should be ok . or no? for the floor, what do i put under the 2x4 or 2x6 to float/decouple it? thats the only few parts i was still a bit foggy on. as far as what to use for under them, what product could i find at home depot etc? somewhere local preferbly . thanks so much! im ready to do this and make things correct!

and the above diagram is from the 'side' view. im sure you guys already got that. just stating the obvious in case :)

As far as OSB or sheetrock...would you personally do sheetrock/sheetrock or OSB/sheetrock

Personally, I would always do OSB + sheetrock, for several reasons, the most important of which are: 1) OSB is structural: it provides strength to your wall in "sheer", which drywall cannot do (drywall is pretty lousy, structurally). 2) It gives you a nailing surface around the entire room, so you can hang any acoustic device in any location without needing to search for studs..

all i can find at home depot here in OSB is 7/16 and 1/2" . either of those work or strictly 3/4?

If you can't find 3/4", then 5/8" is fine. And if your local Home Depot doesn't have that, then try some place else that specializes in supplying building materials.

for the top and bottom of the newly framed walls we will be putting up, how do i tie them into the floor/celing?

Floor: Just bolt, screw or tapcon, as required by code, in the normal way. The only "special" thing you need to do, is to put three beads of acoustic sealant along the sole plates before you put them down on the floor, to get a good seal. One bead goes right down the middle of the 2x4, then another bead about an inch to each side. Then seal again under each layer of OSB / drywall / whatever after it is nailed in place: one seal for each layer. Did I mention that seals are critical? :) Ceiling: Hmmmm... you can't tie into a drop ceiling, and a drop ceiling is no use for isolation in any case! This is probably also part of your problem with lack of isolation. The NORMAL way of doing a ceiling for a drum booth (or any other place where you need high levels of isolation) is to put joists across the new inner-leaf walls (all four of them), and hang drywall from that, such that this ceiling only touches the inner-leaf walls, nothing else. - Stuart -

Stuart. I'm sorry, i miss named the ceiling. It isn't a 'drop ceiling' it was done properly after the original mess. First thing i fixed. One good thing. Did another drum test last night pretty late around 2 am w fresh ears ( last time i did they it was 530am after a 12 hour build day so i was fatigued to say the least) Good news is...i think if i re plug those windows properly i won't even have to do the walls. The sound at my neighbors closest exterior wall, which is a kitchen, is quiterr than a turned down sub in a car. Deff it's getting inside their place an prob not audible from their outside porch either. So with that said, i think i was tired an just freaking out bc i still heard more sound than i wanted but now after a few days stew on it and a re test. I think I'm golden. If i get a complaint , then ill do more. But I'd say 2 drum tests on diff days from 2am to 530am and one today at 10am....with no complaints....I'd say I'm good. However I've learned a wealth if info along the process and will now re plug those windows properly which will most likely tone down those last low end freq's escaping. U can blatantly hear it from them so I'm thinking that will be a massive upgrade i stc