Small outhouse style mixing/control room (UK)

Studio build Hi, firstly what a fantastic forum, it’s the most concise of many resources I’ve checked out. However I am still confused (maybe even more so) I am moving house and as such I’ve been demoted to the garden where UK planning regulations allow me a certain amount of scope with building an outhouse. So I intend to turn it into a ‘studio’ well more a control room/mixing/production room. I’m an electronic music producer and as such I do very limited recording (just the odd bit of guitar & vocals). So what I am looking for is a decent space, that has a trustworthy sound and that won’t disturb the neighbours (there won’t actually be a house within 100ft though) – My equipment list is quite small, A PC, some Mackie HR824, an old Mackie 12 channel desk, about 10u worth of rack equipment (samplers/compressors) – a couple of small synths/guitar and midi keybords. So I don’t need huge amounts of space. Now the limiting factors. UK regulations allows me up to 2.5m high (externally) and the garden is very narrow so that one dimension is restricted to around 2.8m . I don’t have any restrictions on length (except budget) And of course budget, I probably have about £5k for the lot, although with various builders & tradesmen in the family I’m hoping to get some decent prices. I believe there are suitable foundations in place as I’ll be knocking down a wooden shed that is already there. I’m thinking of a design that is concrete brick built outer H 2.5 W 2.8m L 5m. With a room within a room measuring 2.2x2.5x3 – given a bit of storage at the front of the building. This is not set in stone and is probably my first idea for dimensions before I start mocking up drawings. Now questions, I’d obviously like it sound proofed (as well as insulated etc) and will look to do the basics in this sense, however how far do I need to go? Considering I don’t intend to record extensively, I do most of production at modest volumes during the day? Is there a budget/level of sound proofing trade-off I should consider. I’m mainly going to rely on the room within a room theory, good quality insulation and minimal points for potential leakage (even considering no windows, maximum one window on the external) .I’m more concerned with good quality monitoring and saving my budget on acoustic treatment to ensure an accurate/flat response in the room itself. The big question is, am I ever going to get a good mixing environment in such a space? I’m looking to scale down the design John has used in ‘small studio 3D’ but this seems to start with a height around 3m… I suppose beyond that, thinking the HR824 might be too big for the room (they are good for mixing dnb) any recommendations for rooms of such size, the nature of music means sub bas sis important. Thanks in advance Luke

I've done some more research and think i'm going to base a lot of my design around this viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18150&p=127199&hilit=small+mixing#p127199 I'm als going to look to softfit my speakers as it seems a sensible, however i'm not sure if that means me changing from my HR824 to another set of monitors. Any suggestions, i do need to low end benefits of the Mackies viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13063

Hi Luke, and welcome to the forum! :)

However I am still confused (maybe even more so)

Great! Then you are now fully qualified to design and build your studio. If you were certain about anything to do with studio design, that would be a bad sign.... :)

UK regulations allows me up to 2.5m high (externally)

Ouch! So that's the absolute limit for the ridge-line of the roof? That doesn't leave mush space to get a studio underneath... Can the roof be flat? Is that permitted?

With a room within a room measuring 2.2x2.5x3

It would not be easy to lose only 30cm from ridge-line to inner-leaf surface, unless the roof is flat, or very close to flat.

I’d obviously like it sound proofed (as well as insulated etc) and will look to do the basics in this sense, however how far do I need to go?

That depends on two things, and you need to put numbers to them. Actually four things: 1) How loud are you? Measure the level of a typical loud session, using a proper sound level meter. 2) How quiet do you need to be? Measure the typical ambient level outside, at the time of day you would normally work in the studio. 3) How loud are things around you? Worst case: Thunder, rain, wind, helicopters, aircraft, cars, trains, TV, radio, animals, etc. They all make noises that you do not want to get inside your studio, so try to measure how loud they can be, peak. 4) How quiet do you want it to be inside your studio? Pick a nice quiet time of day inside a nice quiet room some place, that you find to be at a good level where you can work well. Measure that level. Measure all of the above with "C" weighting and "Slow" response on the meter. Now find the biggest of those four numbers, and the smallest. Subtract the smallest form the biggest. The difference is how much isolation ("soundproofing") you need. This is the only reliable way of determining your isolation needs: guessing is not the solution!

to ensure an accurate/flat response in the room itself.

Don't set your goals too ambitiously! "accurate" response is do-able and realistic, but "flat response" not so much. You need a pretty large room, and good treatment to be able to get truly flat response. A realistic goal for a typical home studio in a small room is more like "+/- 10dB, across the normal range of the speakers". A more ambitious (but possibly still attainable) goal would be "+/- 6 dB, from 40 Hz to 20 kHz". The smaller the room, the harder it is to get "flat" response, simply due to the nature of the room.

The big question is, am I ever going to get a good mixing environment in such a space?

You sure can! John has designed some pretty small studios that turned out great. Yours won't be the next Abbey Road, of course, but it can still be good. And if your only choices are "reasonably good but not fantastic" and "no studio at all", I reckon I'd go with Option A every time! :)

I'm als going to look to softfit my speakers as it seems a sensible,

VERY sensible! Especially in a small room, where you cannot get the speakers far enough away form the walls to avoid ugly artifacts, it makes sense to soffit-mount.

however i'm not sure if that means me changing from my HR824 to another set of monitors

That passive radiator on the back might be a problem. The way I understand it, it acts something like a reflex port, so it might not be a good idea to hide that behind a soffit. Why not contact Mackie and ask if it is possible to soffit mount them?

Any suggestions, i do need to low end benefits of the Mackies

There's a lot of good speakers out there that have good bass extension. It all depends on how much you are prepared to spend. Personally, I'm a big fan of Adam, but Genelec also has some good stuff. And if you budget extends a bit higher, K&H have some really nice stuff that goes down low. So it's more a question of budget than anything else. A pair of small Genelec or Adams plus a subwoofer might be another option worth looking at. Maybe a pair of Adam A7X's, (perhaps along with a Sub 10) would be a good option for that room. - Stuart -

Hello Stuart, Thank you so much for your reply. A few responses. Yes the roof can be flat, i will have a slight decline from front to back to prevent a build up of standing water. Ultimately if it's going to be such a big headache to work within the 2.5m height restrictions then i can seek planning permission. I'm also going to get quotes to actually have the building buolt slightly underground, maybe 20cm or so, to give me an increase in usable height ithout impacting the external height of the building. This will depend on how much this costs, and trading off that against the benefits. In regards to a typical session now, i will get an SPL meter, but it's quite difficult to guage. My current 'studio' (read spare bedroom) is entierly unworkable for sessions. It adjoins a major road with high volumes of fast traffic. The acoustics are terrible, so all in all i pretty much work exclsuivly in my HD650's. I've actually been looking at both Adam's and Genelics. I'm not sure i'll be able to afford the sub straight away, a quick question. Would you softfit the sub as well? I take it you would? I've done some basic pen skecthes, i'm going to begin to work out sketchup and try and post something a bit more detailed this week for review.

I'm also going to get quotes to actually have the building buolt slightly underground, maybe 20cm or so, to give me an increase in usable height ithout impacting the external height of the building

That would work fine too. In fact, if you can go down 20cm, then it probably wouldn't be much harder or more expensive to go down 50cm... :) Sound loves space, and since you can't go wider, then going higher is a very real option.

In regards to a typical session now, i will get an SPL meter, but it's quite difficult to guage. My current 'studio' (read spare bedroom) is entierly unworkable for sessions. It adjoins a major road with high volumes of fast traffic.

This bedroom is in the same building where the new studio will be built, right? If so, then pick a noisy time of day (rush hour traffic, for example), go stand at the place where you plan to build, and measure just how loud that ambient noise is. That will help you judge how much isolation you need to plan for, bare minimum, just to keep the noise OUT of your studio!

I've actually been looking at both Adam's and Genelics. I'm not sure i'll be able to afford the sub straight away, a quick question. Would you softfit the sub as well? I take it you would?

some people suggest soffit-mounting subs, but I'm not too convinced of the benefits of doing that, for a couple of reasons. One of those is that subs, by nature, are omnidirectional, so trying to "direct" that means that all you accomplish is reducing the level by 6dB :shock: Half of the power stays behind the soffit, instead of going into the room. A soffit would have to be huge to be able to actually "focus" such long waves. Another reason is simply that most good subs are ported, and often that is at the rear, or underneath. So soffit mounting means that you are blocking the port form the room. And finally, you can often improve the bass response of the room by moving the sub around a bit, to find the position where it causes the least problems and has the smoothest response, but you can't do that if it is soffited. So I'm not a big fan of soffit mounting subs. On the other hand, I'm a MAJOR fan of soffit mounting the mains! :) Before you decide on your speakers, go find some dealer that has both Adams and Genelecs, and a good show room where you can listen to both in a decent environment. Take along some of your own music, and some commercial CD's that you know really well, and had listened to in many different places, and do a comparison. The big advantage that you'll find on the Adam A7X or A8X is the high end: it is smooth, has fantastic off-axis response, and extends way up beyond anything else, to something amazing like 35 kHz or so. That means that the tweeters are not struggling in the least at 20 Khz, which is generally considered the upper limit of human hearing. Most lesser speakers can get to 20 k, but they really have to struggle to do that. Think of it like taking your average family sedan to the race track: The specs probably say that it has a top speed of 120 MPH, and it probably actually is able to hit 120 MPH if you really push it, but it will be screaming and groaning and shaking and shuddering and totally stressed out to do that, and won't do it well. But try that in a Ferrari or Lamborghini, and 120 MPH is a piece of cake: it can do that in its sleep, with one wheel and two cylinders tied behind its back! Simply because it is designed to go so much faster. Same with the speakers: the Adams can get to 20 kHz while taking a nap, since they are design to go some much higher, but most normal tweeters are having a hard time reproducing 20 kHz, since that is pretty much their limit. OK, please excuse the shameless rant in favor of Adams, but I just love these things! Those ART tweeters are just so damn impressive that it's hard to ignore their advantages. Streets ahead of most of their competitors.

I've done some basic pen skecthes, i'm going to begin to work out sketchup and try and post something a bit more detailed this week for review.

Cool! Looking forward to it! - Stuart -

Thanks again Stuart. I am moving to somewhere a whole lot quieter. The garden hasn't got another building within 100ft, and is set significantly below any other residents with the natural acoustic baffle of some woodand as well! I'm visiting the new house on Monday (we haven't moved in) so will take an SPL reading. As for the speakers, I've been lucky enough to have friends who between them have Adam a7, the large genelecs (I think the 8040) as well as various others in the mid price range. I have aways favoured the high end on the Adam, but they just don't have the bass response I need. So i think I'll have to add a sub at a later date. There's a few sets on ebay now for decent prices, so i've stuck in some sneaky bids! Thanks for the advice on th sub, that makes perfect sense, at least I can add at a lter date without worrying bout softfitting! In respect of going deeper and giving myself more height, will i mess up my ratios as i can't go sufficetly wide enough for such height?

In respect of going deeper and giving myself more height, will i mess up my ratios as i can't go sufficetly wide enough for such height?

Not really: sound waves don't have a sense of direction: they don't know "up" from "left", so acoustically speaking you can swap the "height" dimension in calculating your ratio with the "width" dimension. You can't really do the same with "length", though, for a different reason: you need the back wall as far away as possible from your head and the speakers, to get the longest possible time delay between direct sound and reflected sound, hitting your ears. This is a psycho-acoustic effect (related to the way our brains perceive sound), not a purely acoustic effect (the way sound interacts with the room), so it's not quite he same. But swapping "width" for "height" in the room ratio equations is perfectly valid, as long as the room isn't so narrow that it starts causing other psycho-acoustic effects, or makes it impossible to position the speakers correctly. In your case, that shouldn't be a problem, since you should be able to get at least 2m of width. - Stuart -

Hello again, usual house buying dramas have taken up the last few weeks, the banks in the UK aen't keen to lend. It seems we have it sorted, but guess what, studio budget squeezed a bit. Although i'm still hopefull. Going to get on with drawings and getting quotes this week. One thing i'm going to have to look at is more DIY. In regards to bass traps, how do peopel feel about this design http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/ ... ished.html Seems like a nice looking and cheap way to build traps (potentially within even my modest DIY skills) i reckon they could be made for about £50 each. However will they be effective?

In regards to bass traps, how do peopel feel about this design

That's a basic superchunk. Very effective down to low frequencies, provided that you have enough of them, in the right locations, and make them big enough. Ideal is about 36" across the front face (the diagonal part, facing the room), but never less than about 24". If you look around this forum, there are LOTS of designs and examples of DIY acoustic treatment: that's what the forum is all about! :) However, you seem to be jumping the gun somewhat! :shock: Acoustic treatment is a long way down the line for you at this point! You should be thinking about the actual design of the studio building right now: isolation shell, size, shape, ratio, volume, target isolation, materials and techniques, etc. All of that will have an influence on how the studio needs to be treated in the end. There's not much point in planning the treatment when you don't even have the basic concept in place yet. Studio design is a process, where you should follow a series of steps that will lead you to the right decisions and best design for the available space. Trying to jump forward is not going to save you any time (or money) later, as you'll only need to re-do that part of the design anyway, when the time comes. I would suggest that it would be better to start put by determining what your isolation requirements are, in decibels, then look at techniques and materials that will get you to that level, on your budget, then take those into account in designing your basic building shell. With that in place, you can then decide on the shape and dimensions of the actual room interior. And based on THAT you can start figuring out treatment. - Stuart -

Thanks stuart for your response. Your steps are very logical. It was more a general question as I start to put together costing. Anyway I’ve enlisted my brother who has helped build a local nightclub from an our industrial warehouse (with local residents) so e is been working hard to get high figures of isolation. Anyway he believes he has an internal double leaf design which is almost identical to those listed on these forum which is going to be good for 60db of isolation, which I believe will be sufficient for the task in hand and provides a good trade off of budget. Also as I won’t be recording drums I can work within the limits of my isolations levels and leave myself scope for future improvements when budget allows At the moment I’m sold on the basic idea of an external concrete block structure that is 2.5m x 3.3m x 5m (h,w,l) with concrete floor and an internal room with an average dimension of 2.3x2.9x3.7 based on the Wes Lachot ratio. I’m currently asking my brother, with his builder to look at a design based on these dimensions limiting parallel walls. This requires a little bit of digging to have the concrete floor set around 10-15 cm below ground level to allow me the height for the internal room and keep it within the 2.5m external limit I have for planning permission. I’m currently in dialogue with the same builder who has worked on this club to get a feel for his ideas, as well as prices etc. I have a feeling budget is going to dictate a lot of my decisions. I attempted a sketch up of this yesterday but I was bloody useless at it, I need to work on my skills

Anyway he believes he has an internal double leaf design which is almost identical to those listed on these forum which is going to be good for 60db of isolation,

Great! 60 dB is pretty good. In fact, that's about as good as you can get it using normal techniques and materials, without resorting to more drastic measures and more exotic materials. 60 dB is approaching the flanking limit for most buildings anyway.

At the moment I’m sold on the basic idea of an external concrete block structure that is 2.5m x 3.3m x 5m (h,w,l) with concrete floor and an internal room with an average dimension of 2.3x2.9x3.7 based on the Wes Lachot ratio.

Which one? Wes uses many different ratios, depending on the dimensions of the room. He tunes rooms to musical scales, so he doesn't have just one ratio that he always uses. The dimensions you mentioned are actually a match for C.P. Boner's ratio, of 1 : 1.26 : 1.59, which is good, but looking at where the modes fall on the scale, it does not look like those dimensions are tuned the way Wes would do it.

I have a feeling budget is going to dictate a lot of my decisions.

8) :lol: :!: Yup! Welcome to the world of studio construction! :) Budget is what it all boils down to in the end... It limits everything... :( - Stuart -