rehearsal space in existing tin shed

Soundman2020 wrote:

The way you describe it, it sounds like you have 'pieces' of sarking which will be pooling condensation on to your timber battens. Probably not a major problem in the short term but the long term could be different.

Exactly! That's the concern with any unventilated roof. Condensation inside the air space can cause long-term problems, and so can the very high temperatures. A tin roof with no ventilation underneath can cause pretty extreme temperatures up there, which the construction materials are not able to withstand for very long without suffering degradation.

And on the note of HVAC, I've installed two Daiken 'ururu sarara' units in my studio that also do air exchange. I've been running them for a couple of months now and I've got to say they are brilliant for the studio.

Just wondering if you have done any final acoustic testing on your room, Steve, to see how much isolation you are getting, and how the room response is looking, for each of the rooms? I'm real interested in how well those Daiken units handle isolation through their air exchange system. - Stuart -

If my sons band have a practice tomorrow and i'm about il try and get a db reading standing outside where the pipework comes out the building and joins up to the outside unit

hello again, ururu sarara it is , heats,cools,humidifies,dehumidifies,purifies and ventilates, my next quest is insulation, which i was planning on placing between wall studs of the internal wall frame, and between rafters on the ceiling , before i begin fixing sheets of 22mm plywood, i have lots(as much as i want/need) of standard second hand insulation available, free, they are the standard fluffy like, yellow in colour fibreglass insulation, am i wasting my time using that type of insulation or should i be investing in the rigid type of insluation that i see so many other users using, whats the best way to install insulation? can i pack,place and fill the entire gap approx 300mm between the walls with the cheap fibreglass batts, or fixing the batts between the wall studs and rafters of the internal wall frame only, so it doesnt fall free and touch the outside wall frame at all, unsure how to do this, any help advice is much appreciated thank you Neil

am i wasting my time using that type of insulation or should i be investing in the rigid type of insluation that i see so many other users using,

You can probably use that, but it would be better to find out first what the properties are. Is it fiberglass or mineral wool? What is the density? With those two bits of information, you can figure out how useful it will be.

can i pack,place and fill the entire gap approx 300mm between the walls

As long as your local fire code allows that, and as long as you don't pack it in tight (forcing it in), then that is, indeed, the best way to do it. Fill the cavity without over-filling it. That gives you maximum isolation, and the lowest resonant frequency.

so it doesnt fall free and touch the outside wall frame at all,

It doesn't matter if the insulation touches the walls (and that can actually be a good thing), provided that it is not compressed up tightly against the surfaces. - Stuart -

neilstar wrote:

standard fluffy like, yellow in colour fibreglass insulation

I'm pretty sure that type of fiberglass insulation is around 10kg/m3 Neil, which as far as I understand is a bit too light for isolation purposes. The insulation I used for my cavity is Bradford Soundscreen. It comes in at 24kg/m3 which is still on the light side of the ideal 30kg/m3 fiberglass, but really has done the job well in my opinion. My cavity is around 130 mm wide and i used the 110mm Soundscreen batts. Having said all that, your 300mm air gap will suck up a hell of a lot of Soundscreen batts and that might become a budget concern once you crunch the numbers on how many batts you'd need. Given that you can obtain as much of the yellow insulation as you want and for free then perhaps the 300mm in yellow might be the way to go. You'll need Stuart or someone with better knowledge than me to comment on the usefulness of 10kg/m3 fiberglass for cavity damping. (if i'm right about the 10kg/m3)

thanks again for the replys, yes i agree i think the yellow batts i have, are definetly on the light side, unsure how to determine those exact figures stuart, but they are fibregalss batts and they are definetly on the light side, standard ceiling batts i recon, so im thinking of purchasing a layer of something, unsure what yet, more research required, something in the 30 - 40kg/m3 , but what i look at seems to be so damn expensive, well here in australia anyway, especially when you start adding how much of it you need, maybe a layer of the bradford soundscreen then fill the entire gap loosely with the light yellow insulation, its quite a big area approx 300mm all the way around Neil

Hi Steve , i just been researching the bradford soundscreen batts, did you use the new generation soundscreen R3.1 batts 110mm thick, cheers Neil

yep, that's them Neil, and yep it's expensive. Especially for the volume of material that a studio requires. Check out this link and go to the last option under 'C' which is CSR bradford insulation density. http://www.insulationindustries.com.au/ ... rdion.aspx It will probably confirm your suspicions about the gold-batts. they come in at around 12kg/m3 at best. In my research of Australian insulation manufacture I came up with two options for my build. One - bradford soundscreen at 24kg/m3 and Two - Fletcher insulation semi-ridgid FI 32 which comes in at 32kg/m3. I went for the bradford in the wall/ceiling cavities as that was the largest volume I needed and I got a good price because I was buying all the plaster from the same supplier as well. I used FI 32 for all the internal control room surfaces as I felt that it was of paramount importance to have the best possible product in the control room for acoustic control. I think my plan paid off extremely well in the acoustics departmet but the financial department is another story :shock: If you thought the soundscreen was expensive you might have a heart-attack when you look at the FI 32 :shock: It really is a matter of 'you get what you pay for' when it comes to insulation as it's the density that counts.

Roguejackal wrote:

Soundman2020 wrote:

The way you describe it, it sounds like you have 'pieces' of sarking which will be pooling condensation on to your timber battens. Probably not a major problem in the short term but the long term could be different.

Exactly! That's the concern with any unventilated roof. Condensation inside the air space can cause long-term problems, and so can the very high temperatures. A tin roof with no ventilation underneath can cause pretty extreme temperatures up there, which the construction materials are not able to withstand for very long without suffering degradation.

And on the note of HVAC, I've installed two Daiken 'ururu sarara' units in my studio that also do air exchange. I've been running them for a couple of months now and I've got to say they are brilliant for the studio.

Just wondering if you have done any final acoustic testing on your room, Steve, to see how much isolation you are getting, and how the room response is looking, for each of the rooms? I'm real interested in how well those Daiken units handle isolation through their air exchange system. - Stuart -

If my sons band have a practice tomorrow and i'm about il try and get a db reading standing outside where the pipework comes out the building and joins up to the outside unit

Actually did this last night, only with my iphone app DB meter Pro on C weighting inside the room maximum was 117db while the band were playing, outside with the phone 50mm away from the open end of the drip pipe 62db, now I think this is pretty good when you think that the nearest neighbours house to this point would be at least 15m away, I am also wondering if it is possible to pipe this 20mm drip pipe into a conventional drain pipe below ground wether this would then cut the db figure down even more especially if the drip pipe was insulated with foam pipe insulation to below ground?

Roguejackal wrote:

only with my iphone app DB meter

Stuart has busted me on this one before :cop: Those mic's don't really have the capability to do this kind of measurment accurately. After being busted using the I-phone, I went out and bought a galaxy sound meter and A/B'd it with my I-phone.....at some frequencys it was 10-15db out (generally lower frequencys).

I know what your saying :D , what model did you get by the way?

Galaxy CM 140. calibrated by cross spectrum labs. very useful :D

hi steve, stuart, insulation question again, do you think there will be a real difference on the final isolation results, with different insulation being used, i realise the 48kg/m3 is ideal, but expensive to purchase, im going to use 22mm ply, and a layer of 16mm fyrcheck maybe even 2 layers of fyrcheck on the internal wall frame, my question is ? im looking for best option, obviously i would like to just use light weight ,free insulation and just fill the 300mm air space between the walls with light weight insulation, or how much better would the end isolation results be with a layer of 110mm bradford acoustic batts, rated approx 25kg/m3 and fill the other 190mm air gap with the lighter insulation, or should i fill the entire 300mm air gap with the heaviest/dense insulation i can afford any help or comments are much appreciated , Thank you Neil

neilstar wrote:

i realise the 48kg/m3 is ideal

For cavity isolation I believe it's more like 30 kg/m3 for fiberglass.

neilstar wrote:

im going to use 22mm ply, and a layer of 16mm fyrcheck maybe even 2 layers of fyrcheck on the internal wall frame

as an internal layer that sounds great to me. one 22mm ply and one/two 16mm fyrcheck will do some excellent isolation for you. That also has to extend to your internal ceiling as well though. You'll really have to do your homework on what you use to support all that weight.

neilstar wrote:

obviously i would like to just use light weight ,free insulation and just fill the 300mm air space between the walls with light weight insulation

again, you'll need someone with a bit more expertise on this than me but i'll give you my gut-feeling anyhow. At 300mm you have an excellent cavity between your internal/external leaves. If the main concern is budget, then I would say to use the free stuff to fill the whole cavity even thought it's light weight. Then use the $'s you saved on insulation to do the double layer of fyrcheck as I think the extra density of the internal leaf would help your isolation more than a single layer of beefed up insulation. Having said all that, the best option for isolation is going to be to fill the entire cavity with 30ish kg/m3 fiberglass and also do the ply and double layer fyrcheck all round. And funnily enough that's the most expensive option which is generally the case with building a studio :roll: It really does come down to what you can afford VS what you need in terms of isolation. ...and which sealant are you using for all of this?

Hi steve thanks for reply, regarding what is supporting the weight, builder has been looking at what i been doing, and ive told him exactly what im putting on the walls and ceiling, he went away and has told me to use a certain size LVL beam, rafters 190x45, double wall studs under every rafter, ok, i hope stuart can reply with his thoughts on using the light weight insulation for the entire cavity and 1 layer of 22mm ply and 2 layers of 16mm fyrcheck, would the extra density of the internal leaf help isolation more than a single layer of beefed up insulation. as steve said?? sealant ???? with the outside mass, i used an Acrylic Gap Sealant, says white, flexible weatherproof seal, paintable and durable sealant i used between all joints, corners, gaps, used it around the frame where i have boxed it in, any little tiny gaps or cracks i shoved it in there, from local bunnings store, is there a specific sealant/caulk you could recommend for best results, that i should/would use on all of the internal linnings, what is it called and where is it available in australia? thanks again Neil

neilstar wrote:

he went away and has told me to use a certain size LVL beam, rafters 190x45, double wall studs under every rafter

yeah, that sounds pretty good to me Neil.

neilstar wrote:

is there a specific sealant/caulk you could recommend for best results, that i should/would use on all of the internal linnings, what is it called and where is it available in australia?

the brand I used was the Green Glue Acoustic Sealant. Go to the GG website and you'll find the Australian distributor. It comes in the large caulk tubes so works out around the same price per volume as any other sealant, but it's specifically made for this kind of work. I think I went through 3-4 dozen tubes on my build at around 50 sq/m floor area.

thanks again steve, will have a look cheers

Hi steve, the gg sealant is used in all joints and any little gaps around edges, $138.60 for a box of 12, is that about right? did you use the gg compound as well between layers of gyrock, the compound stuff is like $308 for a box of 12 cheers Neil

yep, those prices sound right to me Neil. I did use the GG compund on the middle leaf of my three leaf ceiling to try to get as much isolation as I could for my outer shell. My walls are brick and my external roof is tin. I did some isolation tests once the GG leaf was up and it appears that 2 layers of fyrcheck with GG and hung on reilient mounts gives as much isolation as single skin brick wall. It isn't cheap though :roll: I think I used just under 3 tubes per sheet which ended up being 3-4 cases I think. Check out my build thread under Other Studios-Dog & Bear studio. There's a bit on it around page 3-5 or so if you want a bit more detail.

i just read through yr thread steve, wow, what a great looking studio yr building, well done, i will keep watching for more updates, plenty of cash and hard work gone into that, wish i had that sorta cash to throw at it, but i think im gonna slow down, and try to do it better the first time, so i hope you dont mind me continually asking dumb questions, the information i have been recieving from this forum regarding building a soundproof room is invaluable, thank you cheers Neil

neilstar wrote:

i think im gonna slow down, and try to do it better the first time

best way to do it and you'll thank yourself later :D I got planning approval for my 'workshop' at the end of 2009. It's now 2013 :shock: Having said that, the last 18months have really been the stage where I've been doing most of the actual build.

Hi Steve, the gg sealant is obviously different to the gg compound, so do i use the sealant around the edges of the sheets of gyprock(fyrcheck) and any other joins and the compund just between the layers of gyrock(fyrcheck) how does the compound between the sheets help with isolation, have you used the sikaflex11FC for all your joins and any gaps, eg. holes in the walls air con, and small holes around electrical cables for power and lights cheers Neil

neilstar wrote:

do i use the sealant around the edges of the sheets of gyprock(fyrcheck) and any other joins

yep. the idea is that you're trying to make a room that will stop air from getting out. (hence the expensive air-con). So anywhere that air-molecules (very small) can possibly get out, then that's where you run some sealant. If you're doing a double layer of fyrcheck then the first layer that attaches to the wall studs/rafters will need to be sealed around their entire perimeter. Also consider the bottem plates of your wall assembly where they meet the concrete and where your internal ceiling and walls will meet.

neilstar wrote:

how does the compound between the sheets help with isolation

magic :P But seriously, you'll have to look at the GG site for very detailed information. As far as I understand it, it acts as a damping layer between the two heavy and rigid sheets of plaster which effectivley combines them to be greater than the sum of their parts. And I can tell you that it works :D

neilstar wrote:

have you used the sikaflex11FC for all your joins and any gaps, eg. holes in the walls air con, and small holes around electrical cables for power and lights

the sikaflex I use is 221 (black tube, like liquid rubber, incredibly expensive!!!) . I've only used it to seal around my aircon inlets as it deals with large gaps very well (and is expensive) it's a fantastic product that wll join and seal just about anything to anything else (did I mention how expensive it is :D ) All of my internal walls have been built inside-out so all the wiring etc is on the inside, which means the only penetrations are the mains cable and the air con. The mains cable is sealed with GG sealant as it's only a small hole and you know about the air-con. You should be fine to use the GG sealant around small wiring holes etc as long as you keep the 'attention to detail' high.

thanks again steve for your response, going to do some more research on pricing fyrcheck, insulation and green glue, then the installation process, still not sure if filling the 300mm wall space with light insulation is an option considering im using 22mm ply and 2 layers of fyrcheck, or i should definetly be putting a more dense insulation, or at least 1 layer is any benefit cheers Neil

gg compound is rather expensive, do you think using 1 28oz tube of the gg compound per 2400 x1200 is enough, i would need 24 tubes that still totals 24 tubes = $600 and then the gg sealant all around the edges and any little gaps other question? do you have a seperate power cable for lights into your room or do you power lights and all equipment off the same circuit cheers Neil

neilstar wrote:

do you think using 1 28oz tube of the gg compound per 2400 x1200 is enough

i believe there is a minimum rate of applcation or the GG won't be very useful. I believe there's also a maximum rate after which you don't get any increase in isolation. You should be able to find that info on their website, but 1 tube per sheet does sound a little light. I ended up using 42 tubes on my ceiling which comes in at around 2.6 tubes per sheet.

neilstar wrote:

and then the gg sealant all around the edges and any little gaps

yep. airtight.

neilstar wrote:

do you have a seperate power cable for lights into your room or do you power lights and all equipment off the same circuit

As far as the studio mains cable goes it's a single supply for power, lights and air-con which is connected from my house switch board and has it's own circuit. In the studio switch box however, there's a circuit for each of the air-cons, three for power, one for lights, and one for the monitors. All the power and lighting is star-grounded, which means they all have their own seperate earth that runs back to the mains earth. I'm not sure how necessary that was as Australian earth wiring is different to the States, but we did it anyway as it's not that much more work. All up I think I ended up with 40amps in there which should be enough to run just about anything. 6 power points in the control room with another two dedicated to the monitors and another 6 in the live room. All the lights are LED which don't draw a lot of current.