New small studio, i need help! (sketchup plan)

since you need a soffit at least three times as wide as your speaker (ideally), each soffit would have to be 1.6 m wide. That simply will not fit in your room.

:shock: I didn't know that, thank you Stuart. My problem is that i need bass frequencies, the A8X lacks in the mid range detail, another solution would be A7X + Sub8 but the price is a little bit out of my budget, or maybe A8X with another pair of little/mid focused monitors! But i love the sound of a77x :cry: and i don't know any store here that sells all this speakers set, i can't try them! Anyway, this was my plan: If this soffit is too small i'll buy different monitors! Thanks for destroying my dreams!!! :mrgreen:

Hi everybody, i hope you're fine! Today i'm going to buy drywall and i'll start to build soon! (Finally). I want to know what do you think about my plan and if it is ok! :roll: This is a raw sketch! As you can see, the head will be behind 38% and acoustic axis a little bit higher than ears. Front wall and flush mount: the speakers will be decoupled with sorbothane (if i'll find it :evil: ) but i have to check the correct thickness for adam a8x. The box will include those angles in the front for mounting them correctly and a hole for cooling (5cm X speaker width). All the front wall is reflective (drywall) except for the bottom (30 cm), where the air will flow! The soffit front will be 1.6 cm but, maybe too thin? Any recommended thickness??? 2, 3cm...the more the better? :mrgreen: Everything filled with a combination of ridig rockwool and low density/fluffy rockwool, another question here about the rigid rockwool: 30kg/m3, 40kg/m3, 45/m3...Any recommended density? I thought 45kg but i'm scared that it will be too much :? Anyway, during the construction phase, i'll correct mistakes like the acoustic axis! I've never build something, it will be a challenge... Side walls/slat absorbers: they will be broadband but i'm not an expert and i don't want to risk :mrgreen: so, they will be calculated and builded later, after front walls and rear corners! Am i stupid?!?!? Yes i am! :D Little question: i know that they must be sealed airtight, can i use the side wall of the room as the rear panel of the helmholtz? I mean, instead of another wood panel... Rear wall: Superchunk in the corners, angled 20 degrees, filled with 45kg/m3 rockwool and covered with fabric. For the center of the wall 30 cm insulation but i'm confused a little bit, i read a lot here but there are so many different techniques......again, i will check the rooms response step by step and i hope i will know what i'll need... :D Clouds: Same thing as above but i'm thinking about 10, 12 cm rockwool, wrapped in thin plastic and covered with fabric! Star grounding: let's see if i understand: Common hot and neutral daisy chain from one outlet to the next back in the main panel. Isolated ground wires, one for every box, then bussed together and with one ground wire in the main panel. Adjacent receptacles share the same ground! It's ok? :cry: Instruments and gear will be connected to "ups". I'm sorry, i know that my questions are always the same as other threads but i frequently read different answers and i'm scared of making giant mistakes... I'm also working on my english... :mrgreen: Thank you a lot!

Looking good! What tilt angle are you using for the soffits?

All the front wall is reflective (drywall) except for the bottom (30 cm), where the air will flow!

I would suggest that you use John's design for soffits, and divide the interior with a shelf: hangers below, speaker above.

The soffit front will be 1.6 cm but, maybe too thin?

Yes. too thin. I would make it at least twice that thick. The front panel needs to be heavy and rigid.

the more the better?

Yup! :)

Everything filled with a combination of ridig rockwool and low density/fluffy rockwool, another question here about the rigid rockwool: 30kg/m3, 40kg/m3, 45/m3...

For inside the soffit, it doesn't really matter. The purpose of that insulation is mainly to damp resonance inside.

so, they will be calculated and builded later, after front walls and rear corners!

Excellent! that makes a lot of sense.

i know that they must be sealed airtight, can i use the side wall of the room as the rear panel of the helmholtz? I mean, instead of another wood panel...

Maybe... that depends on how deep you need the cavity for treating your problem frequencies, and how big your slats will be, and how thick they will be, and how big the gaps between them will be.... So do some basic math first, to see if you need very deep cavities, but my guess would be that you only need cavities a few inches deep, if you use typical slat sizes and gaps, for a typical room.

Rear wall: Superchunk in the corners, angled 20 degrees, filled with 45kg/m3 rockwool and covered with fabric.

Sounds good to me!

Clouds: Same thing as above but i'm thinking about 10, 12 cm rockwool, wrapped in thin plastic and covered with fabric!

Yep! Ans possibly with a hard back.

Star grounding:

Looks like you got it right. Except that the bus is usually inside the main panel. I noticed that you are in Italy, which is 220 v 50 Hz, as far as I know, and uses the exact same non-polarized plugs and sockets as we use here in Chile, and I think you guys also bridge the ground and neutral in the main panel, like we do. So it looks like you ave the right idea. - Stuart -

Looking good! What tilt angle are you using for the soffits?

7 degrees!

I would suggest that you use John's design for soffits, and divide the interior with a shelf: hangers below, speaker above.

I thought that the space behind the soffit was too small for hangers but ok, i will try to design the shelf with hangers!

Yep! Ans possibly with a hard back.

Yes, you're right but i never understood why!! :D Can you please explain the purpose of the hard back on clouds?

Looks like you got it right. Except that the bus is usually inside the main panel. I noticed that you are in Italy, which is 220 v 50 Hz, as far as I know, and uses the exact same non-polarized plugs and sockets as we use here in Chile, and I think you guys also bridge the ground and neutral in the main panel, like we do. So it looks like you ave the right idea.

Yes, as far as i know here is exactly the same as in Chile! Thank you Stuart, always extremely helpful!

I thought that the space behind the soffit was too small for hangers but ok, i will try to design the shelf with hangers!

This might help: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66&p=334&#p334 :)

Yes, you're right but i never understood why!! Can you please explain the purpose of the hard back on clouds?

The idea is to help break up vertical room modes. Since a mode is just a standing wave, if you put something big enough and solid enough in its path, then you upset the path a bit, and force it to change slightly: The bigger, more massive and more rigid the object is, the more effect it has. So a large cloud with a hard back on it will do that, and if you angle it as well, then you get the extra benefit of possibly changing the frequency of the mode slightly, as you reflect some of the energy off in a different direction from where it was going, thus changing the path length. That's the general idea. I think it was Glenn who first suggested this, so he gets the credit. And if he's around, maybe he can comment on his experience with the, since I'm pretty sure he uses hard-backed clouds regularly. - Stuart -

Aaaaaah yes, it's just like i thought but i have an already massive angled ceiling, i thought it was the same! Thanks! :thu:

but i have an already massive angled ceiling, i thought it was the same!

It's not the same, actually.... :) Similar, but not the same. Your ceiling is part of the inner leaf of your room, and defines the boundary where the modes terminate. A hard-backed cloud is not part of the room boundary: it is not sealed to the walls, so sound waves can still diffract around it... - Stuart -

I'm trying to design the soffits, this is a raw sketch, don't kill me please :mrgreen: Front view: dark grey is the cavity for the reflections coming from the desk. Rear view: rectangular hangers added. In these pics the hangers don't go down to the floor but in reality they will be constructed properly (i hope :D ) If there are any major mistakes, please let me know! Tomorrow the drywall panels will arrive! Have a nice day!

Everything in place, ready to start...and my brother (the man that help me with the construction) takes a holiday... :horse: So, i'm thinking again and again about the design and i have two important questions, one about the room and one about speakers: i redesigned the room and now there is more space and listener position is at roughly 39% (instead of 45%), distance between speakers and listener is 2 meters! Just a raw sketch here, is this better as i think? New one: Old one: Speakers: i want to buy eve audio sc208 now because the "other" brand :mrgreen: didn't answer my questions about documentation that i need, despite i emailed them more than once and these speakers seem to work a lot better. The eve audio support center have help me a lot! These speakers are rear ported, they said that when flush mounted, the gap behind the speaker must be 2cm (in my design it will be 5 cm, i think it's better) My question is: what do you think about soffit mount them? For me it's all fine, better to ask :D Some tech specs: Free-field frequency range (-3dB): 36Hz - 21kHz High-shelf filter (-5dB - +3dB): > 3kHz Desk filter boost (0dB - +3dB): 80Hz Desk filter cut (-5dB - 0dB) 160Hz Low-shelf filter (-5dB - +3dB) < 300Hz Happy holidays!!!

i redesigned the room and now there is more space and listener position is at roughly 39% (instead of 45%), distance between speakers and listener is 2 meters! Just a raw sketch here, is this better as i think?

Much better! :)

i want to buy eve audio sc208 now because the "other" brand :mrgreen: didn't answer my questions about documentation that i need, despite i emailed them more than once

It's a pity about that: Unfortunately, that is, indeed, the major problem with Adam; Their speakers are great, but their documentation is terrible, and their response to technical enquiries is even worse. If they don't fix that soon, it will likely be their downfall in the professional market. They could do so much better if they would only be response to requests for technical documentation, and re-write all their manuals to actually be useful.

These speakers are rear ported, they said that when flush mounted, the gap behind the speaker must be 2cm

That is VERY unusual! Rear ported speakers are notoriously hard to soffit mount (flush mount) correctly, and normally require a very large space at the back, and occasionally even plugging for the port. I would ask the manufacturer for tests result data from those speakers that have been flush mounted. Maybe it will be OK done like that, but I'd like to see proof first. Soffit mounting is generally NOT recommended for rear-ported speakers.

Some tech specs:

Unfortunately, the information you posted is not very useful at all. It does not show the type of data that is needed. For example, there are no response curves for the individual settings, an the dispersion graphs are only for 15° off axis, and do not even show what frequency that was measured at! To be useful, you need to know the dispersion at several different off-axis angles, and for many different frequencies. There is also a suspicious bass rise there, probably from the reflex port: it is about +4 dB at 70 Hz, compared with 700 Hz. Do you have a link to the complete manual for that speaker? - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, i can't add the PDF, here is the link to the " SC207·SC208 product manual" with response curves for the individual settings. http://www.eve-audio.com/index.php?page=manuals

I would ask the manufacturer for tests result data from those speakers that have been flush mounted. Maybe it will be OK done like that, but I'd like to see proof first.

Yes, they say it's ok with 2 cm space behind the speaker but if 5 cm or also 10 is needed, i'll build it with a big space behind! I contact them now! :D Thank you!

here is the link to the " SC207·SC208 product manual" with response curves for the individual settings.

Thanks! Unfortunately, that manual is no better than than the Adam manuals: the graphs don't even show the frequencies! They only show the levels, but that's useless without knowing the frequency... One manufacturer that does a great job with manuals and technical data, is Genelec. If only all speaker manufacturers would do the same, it would be a lot easier for studio designers and builders! I hope you have better luck with getting real and useful technical information from these guys... - Stuart -

The horizontal dispersion PDF show 0° 15° 30 and 45°, the vertical dispersion PDF show 0° +15° and -15°. Every colored lines show the frequencies and at the bottom of the PDF there are some other informations about how it was measured. They send me also the acoustical center! Isn't it all i need? :shock: Sorry, i'm really ignorant about graph :D Regarding the filters graph in the manual, yes, they only show the levels but they seems clear to me, not perfect but clear, let's say "predictable" :mrgreen: For example: Regarding flush mount i made a mistake, they say "EVE Audio monitors can also be flush-mounted in a wall, in which case there should be enough air flow. This is important to keep the electronic components cool but also to allow for the best performance of the bass reflex port. We recommend to keep at least 2 cm to the sides and top." So, they recommend 2 cm of space to the sides and top and NOT behind the speaker. Sorry!!! Anyway, i emailed them, let's say if they can help me with better documentation! EDIT: just a raw sketch, look at the box of the speaker: there is an opening for the rear port and a vertical opening for the air. If my understanding is correct, this is a good way for a rear ported speaker. :roll: What do you think? (Always please, don't kill me) :D

The horizontal dispersion PDF show 0° 15° 30 and 45°, the vertical dispersion PDF show 0° +15° and -15°.

Right, but that's not much to go on! What about 5°, 10° or 60° horizontal, for example, or 30°, 45°, 10°, 60° vertical? One good way of presenting that information is in the form of polar plots for each of several frequencies, such as this very basic one: Or this more detailed one: Another way is to combine them all on one graph: Or a different method is to present the data as a full directivity plot, like this: Or if they really want to do simple frequency response graphs, then at least do enough of them to be useful, such as this one: Those all provide a lot more information to be able to determine how the speaker actually projects sound into space.

They send me also the acoustical center!

That is useful! - Stuart -

Thank you Stuart, really useful!!! Now i will know if they will send me the right graph!

"Wall and speakers are already taken into our anechoic chamber to provide you with fresh measurements and curves. We´ll be back tomorrow." Great customer support!

Cool! Looking forward to seeing the results... - Stuart -

Mmmh...they send me new measurements but i think that they are not what i need...anyway, here are the mail and files: "1. closed bass reflex channel without any space around the speaker This is the recommended mounting for the SC208. The desk filter should be set to -3dB. It is only possible when the electronic is able to ventilate on the backside. 2. open bassreflex channel with 2cm space around the speaker for ventilation The bass response is more increased. General: In any case inwall mounting will increase the bass level upto lower mids. The curves do not totally represent the possible results in your room, because we have simulated only one wall. The range between 400 Hz and 1.500 Hz is affected by the wall (size 140 cm x 160cm) and by the baffle step phenomenon. As you can see there are two options to flush mount the speakers. The ideal way would be without any space around the speakers and some open space in the back for ventilation. Plugging the ports is something we have also simulated in our measurements. " http://www42.zippyshare.com/v/87753514/file.html I'm not an expert as always but if i understand, with desk filter and low shelf the bass bump can be corrected and a large air flow is needed in the back of the speaker.

Interesting, but strange. I'm also not sure why they added a curve with the desk eq cut -3! Was there something in the room similar to a desk? Even stranger is that they did NOT show the most important curve of all: with the Low Shelf filter set to -5 dB, to compensate for the infinite baffle effect. That would have been very interesting to see. It would also be very useful to see a photo of how that speaker was mounted in the anechoic chamber: Unless they show how they did it, it isn't clear at all that they actually simulated a true soffit mount (flush mount in wall). It would be great if they could show a photo of what they did, and also repeat the test with the Low shelf set correctly. The interesting thing is that plugging the port makes very little difference at the very low end. The other concern is the rise in high frequency response in all of their graphs: 18kHz is about 3 or 4 dB higher than 5k, on-axis. Combined with the bass rise, I would guess that this speaker is not designed to be a studio reference monitor, but rather is meant to "sound good" as a bookshelf speaker for a typical home stereo system. The overall response curve has the typical "smiley face" signature of that type of speaker. You would probably have to set the High Shelf control to about -3 or so, to get a usefully flat curve for a studio speaker, in addition to the low shelf. So ask them if they can do that too: a test in the flush mount wall, no air gap around the speaker, with the reflex port plugged, the low shelf on -5 and the high shelf on -3, and the desk EQ on zero. That would be a realistic test of what you could expect in a typical studio. Oh, and also ask them how they plugged the bass port: what materials did they use to do that. - Stuart -

I just did a bit more research on these Eve guys, and found out that they are a spin-off from Adam! (Get it? Adam and Eve?... :shock: :roll: :) ). Seems like someone among the upper management at Adam had a disagreement with the other guys about something, and left to start up Eve. I bet there'll be a lot of jokes and other "ribbing" about how Eve came out of Adam... (Sorry! Couldn't resist the pun....) Probably not a good idea to put Adams and Eves around Apple devices.... And they should never be allowed anywhere near an audio snake! :) (OK, I'll shut up now...) But anyway, the resemblance of these speakers to the Adams is now explained: same basic concept, with ART style tweeters, same style of manual (brief, lacking much useful technical data), etc. Let's hope that they guy who left Adam to start Eve has learned from the mistakes Adam is making, and won't repeat them at Eve! - Stuart -

(Get it? Adam and Eve?...

AHAHHAH yes exactly! For what i know these speakers are a better version of adam (everybody says this, i don't care, i'm just looking for a better translation than my actual cubic room!) The service support is great and fast, and i like this! :D Anyway this is the picture: I think that with a better wall and with the controls on the speaker the frequency graph can be more flat! My problem is more related to the construction: what do you think about a box with an opening for the rear port??? Just like my last sketchup! Thank you!

Hi everybody and hi Stuart!! How is it going??? A little update and a question: i'm currently working (smash that wall, clean everything ecc :mrgreen: ...) on my home, where the new room will be build. In a few days it will be completed, i mean the walls! :) Because of budget and because i'm young and inexpert i redesigned the room without soffits, hard to build for people like me :D and i can't make mistakes due to budget constraint, also i have more options with speakers and placement, more space for traps too! A lot of threads helped me, instead of soffits i will build superchunks and absorbers. Anyway, while i tried to squeeze the biggest room possible in the space that i have, i wasted some space. My question is: should i use this space for trapping? The drywall is thin and light, maybe using this space is a good thing......or is it useless??? In this simple sketchup, you can see the control room and the whole floor: grey - drywall red - existing walls green - wasted space Thank you!

Finck wrote:

My question is: should i use this space for trapping? The drywall is thin and light, maybe using this space is a good thing......or is it useless???

Little bump for my question, i'm building the walls! :D

green - wasted space

I would use that space for your HVAC silencers and ducting.... :) - Stuart -

Hi Stuart! I can't do that, the room isn't isolated and due to low budget reasons i will buy just a little mini split/inverter (something with low noise i hope). So, i don't need ducts, vents ecc! I'll use that space for a little storage room for the future. Anyway i'm not working anymore now (no more money :mrgreen: ) and i have time to think (and learn) once again about acoustics treatment! I will post some pics as soon as i've finished with the plasterboard! Thanks!