New small studio, i need help! (sketchup plan)

Hi, here i am again with a new plan and i need to know what do you think about this design and construction, i need a lot of help too :D I want to build a small home studio with a small control room and a small booth (also for the drum when occurs, also if this is not a great idea...) in my underground basement, so, i have some questions! Ah! Sorry in advance for my english! :oops: Dimensions: 380cm (W) 750cm (L) 230 cm (H) (first problem) How loud i am: it depends but i can say a maximum of 110 db for the live room and a maximum of 90, 100db for the control room. Goals: i want to be able to record a drum in the day without disturbing neighbours and use the control room also the night for recording/mixing without problems! In a few words i need a lot of TL! It would be great hearing "nothing" coming from the live room and the best sound for the control room that i can with this small place (The goals of almost all and i know, it is difficult :cry: ) Budget: as low as possible, all DIY...i don't have an exact budget, i want to make a good isolation plan and after request a quote to the local seller! Informations: i have brick walls with concrete that divide me from neighbours, i'm sorry but i don't know more about this walls, in the sketchup file you can see it. Concrete floor with tiles! No problems for the outside noise, i live in a silent place and the neighbours are silent too! Above me there is my home! The lead sheet that you can see in the sketchup "walls" has a mass of 5 or 7 Kg/m2 for 26db of isolation, depending on what i choose! My plan consists in a "big" new room fully decoupled (20 cm from the existing wall in one side) and inside, two other rooms (CR and LR) decoupled from the first box and also each other. From inside: drywall 1.6 - lead sheet - drywall 1.6 - 10 cm air/insulation - again drywall - lead sheet- drywall Floor: i'm NOT thinking to float the floor but put a simple laminated floor in the CR and in the LR the same with a sheet of rubber under the laminated for the vibrations. Ceiling: drywall 1.6 - lead sheet - drywall 1.6 insulation 5 cm All mounted on double frame steel stud. With this plan the height becomes 2.20 / 2.22 cm, i don't want losing height with a floating floor and a massive ceiling and it seems to me a decently solution :roll: Some pictures: two rooms, yellow for the insulation/acoustic treatment, pink is an extra space that i have and i don't know if i need to use it for insulation, for exstending the width (good thing but different ratio) or simply building the CR without this space! I want to soffit mount the main pair of speakers higher than 120cm because of other speakers in front of me or any kind of stuff that block the direct sound, i'm a bad designer :horse: don't look at this! :mrgreen: Only an idea of what i'm thinking... Here the sketchup of the whole basement with informations: neighbours, walls... Questions: 1) Do you think that this is a good plan based on the isolation that i need? 2) The ratio of the control room is 1:1.4:1.9 do you think that there are better ratios for this space? Remember the extra-pink space in the picture! 3) What do you think about the floor plan? Maybe, if i have some problems after, i'll decouple only the drum with a platform! 4) If i make the same new wall in the side with the existing wall, i'll have a three leaf with the mass of the existing wall...usually i see drywall, rockwool and existing wall but i think that with this kind of wall, i'll have not enough TL for my neighbours :mrgreen: what i need to do??? Adding mass i suppose...what do you think about use the same wall with only one gap of air? (drywall, sheet, sheet, drywall, rockwool/air, existing wall) In this sketchup you can see my idea (don't look at the dimensions) but i don't know what to do with this wall and double frame to avoid the three leaf...help this poor noob :cry: (don't look at the inside shapes of the rooms! :D ) In conclusion, i need any kind of help as soon as possible about this plan for the isolation and i'll be able to request a quote! Another idea that i have, is to build first the control room and check the isolation and after build the live room with more mass if needed! I'm sorry again for my english and for my stupid questions but although i read books and this forum all the days, i have fear of my mistakes and my few money don't allow me to make disasters! :mrgreen: I hope that i don't miss something in the rules! :oops: Thank you all for this beautiful forum! <3 :shock: Cheers!!!

EDIT with more informations! :love:

HI!!! Is there a gentleman that wont to answer at least to my 4 question? :roll: I really don't understand how to build a double framed walls in the side with the existing wall :oops: and unfortunately i can't find nothing on the forum! Thank you! :D

Hi! This is a detailed sketchup (i hope) that shows my idea for the new walls. Please, tell me if i'm wrong, any advice would be appreciated. :oops: Cheers! :D

Hi Finck, Just following your thread here ... Was wondering if you could post a few pictures of the actual space you're looking to build. In particular, the wall area in question. This could be very helpful for those that can offer insight/advice.

Hi RJHollins, nice to meet you and thanks for your reply. I'm sorry but the place now is a disaster :D as soon as possible i'll try to make some photos but in the last sketchup attached you can see all the walls and the geometry of the basement if can give a good idea. Thanks again! :)

Hey Finck. Sorry about the delays in getting around to your thread: I'm playing catch-up, with a long list of stuff that I'm way behind on...

Dimensions: 380cm (W) 750cm (L) 230 cm (H) (first problem)

OK. Height is a little low, but still reasonable. Designing carefully can minimize height loss.

How loud i am: it depends but i can say a maximum of 110 db for the live room and a maximum of 90, 100db for the control room.

That sounds reasonable and realistic.

Goals: i want to be able to record a drum in the day without disturbing neighbours and use the control room also the night for recording/mixing without problems!

Those are also realistic goals, but it would be good to know what actual decibel levels you need to achieve, in order to meet those goals. Are there legal restrictions on how loud you can be during the day / at night?

Informations: i have brick walls with concrete that divide me from neighbours, i'm sorry but i don't know more about this walls, in the sketchup file you can see it. Concrete floor with tiles!

that's a good start. You should be able to get good isolation, if you design and build your inner-leaf carefully.

The lead sheet that you can see in the sketchup "walls" has a mass of 5 or 7 Kg/m2 for 26db of isolation, depending on what i choose!

I don't think that is real lead sheet! Lead weighs about 12,000 kg / m3, so to only weight 5 kg / m2, it would have to be less than half a millimeter thick! That is leaf foil, not lead sheeting. Or maybe it isn't lead at all? Maybe it is more like Mass Loaded Vinyl? Also, why do you want to use lead? It is very expensive, and at only 7kh/m2, it is probably not worth it. Ordinary 16mm drywall weighs about 12 kg/m2, and is MUCH cheaper.

From inside: drywall 1.6 - lead sheet - drywall 1.6 - 10 cm air/insulation - again drywall - lead sheet- drywall

That's fine, but forget the lead foil. You don't need it, and it is not adding enough mass to be useful (unless you can get it very cheap?).

Floor: i'm NOT thinking to float the floor but put a simple laminated floor in the CR and in the LR the same with a sheet of rubber under the laminated for the vibrations.

Not rubber, but better the underlay that is recommended by the manufacturer. You say that your floor is already "concrete with tiles", and that is great. That's an excellent surface, acoustically. You could just leave it like that, if you want to save money. Then use isolation pads for things like speaker cabinets, and a drum riser platform to isolate the drums.

I want to soffit mount the main pair of speakers higher than 120cm because of other speakers in front of me or any kind of stuff that block the direct

You can do that, but you must be very careful when you do, for several reasons. First, you should NEVER angle them more than 10° down, or you will start to mess up your "perception" of the sound: the way your ears and brain work to understand the sound: Some people say that even 10° is too much, and you should not go more than 7°. Personally, I try to keep it under 5°, for another reason: If you put your speakers too high, and angle them more than about 5°m then you start to cause reflections that bounce off the surface of your console or desk, right into your ears... you do not want that to happen. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart :D thanks for your reply!!

Are there legal restrictions on how loud you can be during the day / at night?

Yes but in the night i can decrease the volume if i'll have problems :mrgreen: and my family and neighbours sleep 2 floors up (home studio, first floor, second floor with bedrooms) and this help me a bit! :) In the day i have some problems, for example the wall that divide me from neighbours, i don't know how to make a good wall that give me a good isolation in this side with the existing wall! What do you think about this sketchup? In the north side there are 3 layers of drywall 1.6 cm and 25 cm of air gup! (I don't think that this can give me a lot of TL :roll: ) I don't know exactly how much TL i need but i think that 60db is good for me and this is not easy because i need also a good isolation of the low frequencies :roll: so...the best that i can!

Also, why do you want to use lead? It is very expensive, and at only 7kh/m2, it is probably not worth it. Ordinary 16mm drywall weighs about 12 kg/m2, and is MUCH cheaper.

Yes, this is like Mass Loaded Vinyl and here they call it ecological lead but no lead at all! I just thought that this "lead" might be good for isolation because i saw a lot of people (or auralex 101) that use this material with good results. Why??? :mrgreen: Maybe because it save space! I have heard that help a lot for the vibrations at low frequencies. (And it is not cheap at all! :shock: ) What do you think about 6 layers of 1.6 drywall??? As you can see in sketchup! Or maybe different thickness for the drywall?

You can do that, but you must be very careful when you do, for several reasons. First, you should NEVER angle them more than 10° down, or you will start to mess up your "perception" of the sound: the way your ears and brain work to understand the sound: Some people say that even 10° is too much, and you should not go more than 7°. Personally, I try to keep it under 5°, for another reason: If you put your speakers too high, and angle them more than about 5°m then you start to cause reflections that bounce off the surface of your console or desk, right into your ears... you do not want that to happen.

Yes, i thought 7° or 5°, i'll try to design the CR and post it on the forum! For now i need to know what i need for the isolation that i'm looking for and request a quote to the local seller! :? Again: sorry for my english and thanks a lot for the help! Cheers! :D

What is your point, Jackmite? Why are you repeating everything I already said, and the OP already agreed with? - Stuart -

In the day i have some problems, for example the wall that divide me from neighbours, i don't know how to make a good wall that give me a good isolation in this side with the existing wall!

For low frequencies, unfortunately isolating just one wall very well does not work: The sound will get out through the other walls, doors, windows, HVAC system, electrical system, etc., and once it is out, it will spread in all directions, including to the other side of the "good" wall. So isolating a studio means that you have to isolate all sides to the same level, not just one or some.

What do you think about this sketchup? In the north side there are 3 layers of drywall 1.6 cm and 25 cm of air gup! (I don't think that this can give me a lot of TL)

Actually, that CAN give you very good isolation... of there is a layer of something massive and solid on the other side of the air gap, and nothing "bridging" across the air gap. So if you have a brick or concrete wall on the other side of the air gap, then that's great! But you need to have the same around all sides of the room, if you want good isolation in low frequencies.

I don't know exactly how much TL i need but i think that 60db is good for me and this is not easy because i need also a good isolation of the low frequencies

60dB TL is very good! If you can get that much, then you will have excellent isolation.

Yes, this is like Mass Loaded Vinyl and here they call it ecological lead but no lead at all! I just thought that this "lead" might be good for isolation because i saw a lot of people (or auralex 101) that use this material with good results. Why???

Perhaps because of good marketing? :) Seriously, the issue is NOT that MLV doesn't work: it DOES work. The problem is that it is very expensive, and the sound waves really don't care about price. It does work, and does have its place in acoustics, but only in situations where the cost can be justified, and there are no alternatives. I have used MLV myself, to isolate a noisy drain pipe above a home theater, since it was the only thing with enough mass that I could bend around the pipe into the shape I needed, and then seal air-tight, in order to isolate the pipe. There was no other way that I could have done that, so the high cost was justified. But just using MLV as a layer of extra mass inside a wall makes no sense, due to the price. You get much more benefit, at much ,ower cost, from an extra layer of drywall. Compare the numbers: A single layer of 16mm drywall has nearly three times as much mass as a layer of 5kg/m2 MLV, but the drywall costs much less. So unless you have lots of money that you want to throw away ( :!: :D ) or really have a situation where there is no alternative, then you don't need MLV.

Maybe because it save space! I have heard that help a lot for the vibrations at low frequencies.

It can, yes... when used as a proper limp membrane! But that's not the way you propose to use it in your wall... :)

What do you think about 6 layers of 1.6 drywall???

Waaaayy too much! I mean, if you want to do that, then you sure can, and the results will be good, but that is "overkill". Like trying to swat flies with a shotgun! What you really need for good isolation, is a "room in a room". That simply means that you have your existing room, with the walls and ceiling around it, and you build a new room inside it, a few cm away from the walls and ceiling. So you build a simple wood frame that does not touch the existing walls or ceiling, and you put a layer of OSB on once side of that frame, then one or two layers of 16mm drywall on top of the OSB. That's all. If you do that right, and seal it all air-tight, then you can indeed get very good isolation.

What do you think about this sketchup?

Yes, that's the idea! What you are proposing in your new SketchUp model is basically correct, and all you need to do is to use 16mm OSB or plywood as the first layer on the studs, forget about the MLV, then one or two layers of 16mm drywall on top of that. And if you really want a good improvement in isolation, then spend the extra money on Green Glue (instead of MLV), and put a layer of that between the layers of drywall. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, thank you a lot for the help and yes, what you say is right but i don't know if i've understood :oops: Like this??? One layer of drywall that touch the structure and make a big box and inside, 2 rooms all decoupled builded with 3 layers of drywall. Or maybe is better 2 layers inside and 2 layers outside? :roll: Anyway, all with double frame steel studs and insulation! I can't use osb and green glue, we don't have the green glue :( that's the reason why i thought to use 6 layers of drywall! (Edit: i found it on ebay from uk! :mrgreen: ) Another question if possible: i have an extra space of 30 cm that allow me to expand the width of the control room, now in the project the ratio is 1 : 1.4 : 1.9. If i use this space for the control room i'll have 1 : 1.53 : 1.9 ... Which one??? :mrgreen: Am I going to have problems with the second option? Is it better to keep the first one? Edit: ops, another one: as you can see in sketchup, i have a glass door (east side)...i suppose that the mass is lower than brick, can i build the rear of the control room as i planned in sketchup? Thanks again and have a nice day!

Like this???

Yes, that the idea!

2 rooms all decoupled builded with 3 layers of drywall. Or maybe is better 2 layers inside and 2 layers outside?

3 layers is a lot! Three layers will get you more isolation than two layers, but two layers is already pretty good. You might not need three layers.

I can't use osb and green glue, we don't have the green glue

OK; if you can't get it easily, then you can live without it. It helps a bit with low frequency isolation, but you can accomplish the same thing by increasing your air gap and increasing the mass (three layers instead of two).

Another question if possible: i have an extra space of 30 cm that allow me to expand the width of the control room, now in the project the ratio is 1 : 1.4 : 1.9. If i use this space for the control room i'll have 1 : 1.53 : 1.9 ...

Right now in your SketchUp file, the dimensions of the control room are 3.08 W x 4.18 L x 2.3 H, which is a ratio of 1 : 1.33 : 1.81. That's a pretty good ratio, very close to Louden's second best ratio (1 : 1.3 : 1.9). If you add 30cm to the width, then you get 3.38 W x 4.18 L x 2.3 H, which is 1 : 1.46 : 1.81. That is very close to Louden's best ratio (1 : 1.4 : 1.9). Both of those are good. It does not really matter which one you choose.

as you can see in sketchup, i have a glass door (east side)...i suppose that the mass is lower than brick, can i build the rear of the control room as i planned in sketchup?

How thick is the glass? density of glass is very similar to the density of brick (both are around 2000 to 2500 kg/m3). depending on how thick the glass is, we can figure out the surface density, and see how good your isolation would be. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart !

OK; if you can't get it easily, then you can live without it. It helps a bit with low frequency isolation, but you can accomplish the same thing by increasing your air gap and increasing the mass (three layers instead of two).

Good!!! :mrgreen: i'll choose the low-priced! Ahahah!

Right now in your SketchUp file, the dimensions of the control room are 3.08 W x 4.18 L x 2.3 H, which is a ratio of 1 : 1.33 : 1.81. That's a pretty good ratio, very close to Louden's second best ratio (1 : 1.3 : 1.9).

Yes but with the new ceiling the dimensions will be 3.08 W x 4.18 L x 2.20 H which is 1: 1.4: 1.9 and if you think that extra 30 cm in the width is not bad, perfect because i need a little bit more width! :D 1 : 1.53 : 1.9 (note that 2.20 H is an idea, but it can be 2.22, 2.23) About the glass i don't know, maybe 5mm or 1 cm :? as soon as possible i'll come back with more informations! (I'm sorry but now i don't live in this house!) Thank you a lot Stuart and see you soon!

Hi everybody and hi Stuart, i hope that everything is fine! Some bad and good news: because of some problems (sewer and other ductings) i can't build the homestudio here BUT after some months, i've found a place where build it with more space, the problems now is that my budget is extremely low (as always :D ) and the studio will be on the upper floor (and i know the related problems) so, after learned a lot here, i have a new plan (sketchup) that i want to show you and if it's good :roll: , i'll start to build it immediately! Can i upload the plan here or better start a new thread? Again: sorry for my english and thank you!

Can i upload the plan here or better start a new thread?

It's better to keep everything in one thread, even if the plan changes. - Stuart -

Ok, thanks! The studio will be on the 3rd floor, i'll simply build tiny and lightweight new walls for the control room without any isolation (i don't need it here but of course i'll put rockwool inside) and in the future also a booth! Because of the low budget i'll start with only the control room and finally i will be able to "work" on my music again because in my actual room i can't... :roll: Goals: a decent sounding control room for now! In the next future also a little booth! How loud i am: 80 / 85 db! Dimensions: in the plan below the CR is 500cm (L) 400cm (W rear wall) and from 213cm to 349cm (H with an already angled ceiling) and it is 55 cubic meters! HVAC: a simple split-inverter that provide air exchange Informations: existing walls made of bricks! Below the cotrol room there are my bedrooms! No outside noises! For any other informations please ask! Here is the plan: in red you can see the existing walls and in gray the new walls/drywall! Here is the plan in 3D: the soffit mounted speakers are angled 7 degrees and the side walls 12! Questions: 1) What do you think about the ratio of the room? (I'm open to everything better because i'm a really bad designer :oops: ) 2) Can i leave the ceiling as it is and during the "sound treatment" add a cloud? I mean, without build a new ceiling, now it is 16,5 degrees! 3) What's the best way to proceed with the audio analysis of the room? If there is a way! :) Step by step or maybe run a test after all the acoustic treatment...i don't know! :? As soon as possible i'll try to design the internal acoustic treatment and any help/advice would be much appreciated, you're all welcome to teach me something! :mrgreen: Thank you a lot, best regards!

Little bump with a question about the rear wall: in a small room, can i use hangers or better to use absorbers and superchunks? Or both :D I always see a lot of big hangers in big control rooms and low absorbers in small control rooms!

Little bump with a question about the rear wall: in a small room, can i use hangers or better to use absorbers and superchunks?

Either way will work. But hangers do take up a fair amount of room, so in a small room you might not be able to make them big enough to be effective. - Stuart -

Thank you Stuart, so your advice is to avoid hangers! And what do you think about my previous post? Basically i want to know if my layout is bad :? and then i'll build the room! I'm currently trying to design the internal acoustic treatment :cen: really difficult, as soon as possible i'll upload the sketchup!

Hi, i'm currently trying to design the internal of the control room and i have some questions: in this picture you can see different soffits framing and i've also seen something similar in other threads, isn't it a problem regarding the balancement of sound? It's difficult for me to say it in english but i think that the soffits should be equal, maybe insulation is my friend and it help me, i don't know, can someone explain this to me? Here you can see the structure, i know that it is ugly :mrgreen: sorry but this is the first time i have done this! it is incomplete, there are no clouds and no insulation here. Red parts = drywall! Am i on the right way? :oops: Thank you! (Stuart congratulation for your admin title!!! :yahoo: )

When you ask about soffits being equal, I assume you are referring to the symmetry of the front of the control room. That symmetry is definitely important towards the front of the room around the mixing position. Have you thought about framing that left side to give yourself the same angle that you have over on the right? I don't think you can accomplish the symmetry with only treatments like a slotted wall over insulation. My understanding is that it's the hard boundary of the leaf that's important there... or maybe I'm misunderstanding what I'm looking at. Is that intended to be the hard boundary?

Hi Johnnie, thank you for your answer and your help! My question is about the different sizes of the soffits, in the pic below marked in green: the left one is much bigger than the right one, isn't it a problem? Of course they will be sealed but the left one will have more insulation/air! This project is based on other projects (i mean the shape of the hard boundary, the walls around the framing) but i can't find some threads where someone explain how to compensate this difference! :? Anyway, in red you can see the drywall all around the control room and also the drywall front-soffits! In my previous post there is a sketchup more easy to understand (i hope :D ). Thanks! :) EDIT: the soffits are equal, the air behind the speakers is different! Anyway, if better, i can build the room like A instead of B!

The problem is not the volume of air inside the soffits: that doesn't make much difference at all, since the interior of the soffits are acoustically not really part of the room. The problem is symmetry. Like Johnny said, room symmetry is very, very important. If your room is not symmetrical, then your ears will be hearing different things on the left and right: different equalization, different timing, different phasing, different reflections. And you will subconsciously try to "fix" that in your mix, so it sounds good in the room... but sounds bad everywhere else. As Johnnie said, you cannot fix the symmetry problem with slot walls: the depth behind the slots on the left and on the right is different, so they are tuned differently, and the equalization will be different. So that is not correcting the symmetry problem, and in fact it is making it even worse. This is an issue with the hard boundary of the room: the inner leaf walls. So what you show as "A" is the correct way to do it. - Stuart -

Hi everybody! In the next days i'll start to build the room (the outside shell and the electrical plan), i'm currently trying to design the internal frames and after one milion test i'm almost crazy :D with a lot of simple questions (i can't find the answers :( ) Just 2 for now, the most important: 1) i would like to flush mount the adam a77x, they told me that i can flush mount these speakers (of course if well build) BUT in horizontal position because in vertical position i might have problems with stereo image. So, ok for the horizontal position! What do you think? 2) Soffits: do i need to seal them? I mean the cavity behind the speakers (in red below) Please, let me know, thank you for your help!

1) i would like to flush mount the adam a77x, they told me that i can flush mount these speakers (of course if well build) BUT in horizontal position because in vertical position i might have problems with stereo image. So, ok for the horizontal position! What do you think?

It makes sense. As far as I know, that's the best orientation for the A77X anyway. I don't think it would be good to mount it vertically, if is designed for horizontal. In fact, Adam makes an "A" and "B" version of these monitors, with the "B" being a mirror image of the "A". So you should buy one of each, with the "A" on the left and the "B" on the right, to ensure a proper sound stage and stereo image. However, that will make your soffits very wide. The A77X is 53 cm wide, and since you need a soffit at least three times as wide as your speaker (ideally), each soffit would have to be 1.6 m wide. That simply will not fit in your room. So you REALLY need such a large speaker for such a small room? I would suggest that an A7X or A8X would be more than enough. With an A7X, your soffits would only need to be about 60 cm wide, and about 80 for the A8X. I have done soffits for the A7X at 70 cm wide, and that seems to work fine.

2) Soffits: do i need to seal them? I mean the cavity behind the speakers (in red below)

You don't really need to seal the two bits at the top, between the soffits, but you do need to seal the ones on the sides, especially if you are going have slot walls on the side angled sections. - Stuart -