Low ceiling basement studio plan

I don't have an opinion on the ROXUL stuff as this is just what the contractor ordered. I read here that the R-14 that you can see from the pictures he got is too dense to absorb bass frequencies. This comment that I read was regarding room treatments and not absorption within walls. I'm concerned as well that it will short out the decoupling. I will be bringing this up at my meeting with the acoustic supply company I'm going to see today.

"Put simply, build a room inside a room. Decoupled from the joists and from the perimeter wall. So simple and so cheap" Ok, in your carpenters defense...the reason they are wedging this frame up to the ceiling/floor joists is because the frame will not stand on it's own. If you installed ceiling joists directly to this new framing you would be in a better place. As it is, you have a decoupled frame with the new wooden assembly...you CAN install RC to this wall framing but I would look into resilient sway bracing first, compare the pricing of that to using redundant rc (since the walls are decoupled except for the pinch points that keep the assembly vertical and coupled right now) and see which is the better option from a financial stand point, for a fully decoupled environment.

Still trying to figure out what would be the best procedure financially and effectively. Undoing the 'pinch points' to fasten with sway bracing and new ceiling joists is one way to do it. The other option is using Genie Clips on blocks attached to the side of the joists to mount the ceiling and using Genie Clips or RC to decouple the walls that already are framed and framing the new walls decoupled. My contractor and I had a meeting with Wilrep/AcoustiGuard yesterday and it was a very informative 2hrs. I did buy Genie Clips (enough for ceiling and shared wall with neighbours), GreenGlue as well as sway braces (Iso-Bracket). That said, I could return what I don't use for a refund so I'm still considering both options and alternatives. Another useful product would have been the Iso-Sill but because it comes in a roll that would be way too much for the two small walls we have yet to frame, it's not worth buying it and not being able to return the unused bit. That said, is there another way to 'float' the bottom plate/framing? I'm trying to read up on the subject but I don't know if any alternatives are readily available. Also wondering about our plans for the ducts. We got a quote that we're happy with that will include 1) Truncating about 4 feet of both ducts. Feed Duct will continue run with oval shape-low-profile duct (more space for the room). The return duct will remain truncated. 2) Killing the entire house's ONE indoor return (at the home entrance) and putting in 3 new returns (one in the music room) 3) Music Room feed vent cut and silencer put in. Here's what the HVAC guy doesn't know about... 1) canvas connectors. 2) MLV or barrier material. 3) Duct absorbtion material (and duct fabrics). I should mention AcoustiGuard had great advice and products available but I didn't pull the trigger on any of that stuff. ANY pointers in this regard would be appreciated greatly! I am hoping to build duct silencers soon and haven't had any luck locating canvas duct connectors.

"RC to decouple the walls that already are framed and framing the new walls decoupled." What does that mean? You have three paths to choose for your framed walls, Either you mount them hard to the existing framing, and install RC on the wall framing which will decouple the framing. OR you install sway braces to the interior framing, there by decoupling the framing and having it stay vertical. You do not add RC to this wall assembly since it is now decoupled via the sway braces. And lastly, if you install joists overhead, you would make certain the wall framing is decoupled from the exterior, install the joists (temporary wall support to keep them vertical is required) then you install OSB sheathing, vertical onto the interior framed studs to add shear ability. No sway braces are required, no RC is required on the wall assemblies, and you can now install the interior sheetrock directly to the OSB.

xSpace wrote:

And lastly, if you install joists overhead, you would make certain the wall framing is decoupled from the exterior, install the joists (temporary wall support to keep them vertical is required) then you install OSB sheathing, vertical onto the interior framed studs to add shear ability. No sway braces are required, no RC is required on the wall assemblies, and you can now install the interior sheetrock directly to the OSB.

Thanks Brien, I wasn't aware that this third option required something called OSB. I guess that shows how green I am (at least I'm not as green as my contractor :mrgreen: ). I can't visualize the orientation nor the purpose of the sheathing. Does it extend up to the existing joists? I don't know what shear ability is. This third option is the best scenario because it requires no 'sway braces', 'clips' or 'RC' (save $) and because it's not taxing to the joists and perhaps prone to 'shearing'? BTW, tonight, my wife and I tried using Acoustic Caulk on the subfloor first drywall layer 1/2" (with backing rod stuffed in). Anyway, I just thought that it's so messy and slow that we could just put up the second layer (which is 5/8") with green glue and then caulk that layer. Especially since we installed them incorrectly in the first place by screwing them into the subfloor. Also, the brand and type of caulk we have is this one... http://www.lepage.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=92 I bought it without reading that it's for vapour barriers. Not sure if we should continue to use it.

___"RC to decouple the walls that already are framed and framing the new walls decoupled." What does that mean?____ To answer your question, I meant that there are music room walls that have already been framed. This already done framing goes right up to the joists and is screwed into them for stability. There's more framing to be done. The new framing should be done properly (either with sway bracing or by going for Brien's option #3) I might be using the terminology of decoupling wrong. Does this clear it up at all?

Although this is a small sized basement, to undo the "pinch points" of the perimeter framing that was done up to the joists would be a lot of work and I would like some opinions if this would be the correct way to proceed. Up until now, I had thought that building a room inside a room with new joists would require sway brackets but if it doesn't then saving the costs of sways is an added incentive. As for Ducts, I got some 5/8 MDF sheets to try and build 2 silencers. MDF is heavy business. I will have to really get that in-between the joists securely! For the two giant ducts in the basement, I aim to put absorption into them as described in this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkSj4Ntd0PQ BUT I don't know where to get 'air conditioning fabric' or flexible canvas connectors and neither does my HVAC guy. Can I use burlap around absorption inside the ducts? I wouldn't think that the fibres would be contained in a duct area.

"To answer your question, I meant that there are music room walls that have already been framed. This already done framing goes right up to the joists and is screwed into them for stability. There's more framing to be done. The new framing should be done properly " Ok...let's have a little talk about mass-spring mass. This is the properties of a wall that will get you high isolation...I assume you have read nothing in this respect or have yet to get your head around the idea, so we have to pursue this idea until we both can say..."he get's it ". You have a basement, lets act for a few minutes that it is empty, not a thing in there...but the basement walls. Now if we were trying to build a high isolation wall assembly using mass/air/mass principles which is the same thing as a fully decoupled wall assembly AND a two leaf wall assembly, we consider this basement wall, the exterior perimeter as one leaf. It is the one leaf in a two leaf system. Like it is the "mass"...but we have not added the air/mass yet...ok? Now we construct a framed wall assembly inside of this basement, a wooden framed wall that does not touch ANYTHING but the heavy Earth damped concrete slab. And then we instal insulation into the framed assembly and install, for brevity, one layer of 5.8 inch sheetrock on to the interior side of this newly framed wall. We assume that the ceiling was done to these same specs, and once that is complete, this is your mass/spring/mass, your fully decoupled room, your room in a room or your two leaf wall assembly. Hell man, if you want to spend the money like it's no tomorrow...do it...but there are better ways...that is all I am trying to stress here. You and people that come behind you have got to get a handle on these simple basic aspects or you are going to not only waste money, but who ever reads this, and does not do the due diligence, is going to do the same thing as well.

Brien, I know about the two leaf system. I have been studying Rod's book over the past two years and half years, but that doesn't mean I know anything about construction or dealing with contractors...only the theory. I told my contractor to build the wall framing so that it doesn't touch anything. He sure as hell heard me but regardless he proceeded to screw it into the joists, onto the electrical box and to the window frames. His defense was 'the wall would fall over otherwise'. So I told him to stop whatever he was doing until we get onto the same page. In order to do that, I setup a sit down with Wilrep/AcoustiGuard and they made the contractor realize he had done everything wrong. There is a lot to learn or rather unlearn so I'm glad they took 2 hrs to go over every detail with him. Regardless of my contractor’s newfound understanding, my head is spinning with options and ways to minimize costs. I mentioned earlier that I foresaw 2 options and was presented a third by Brien. BTW, I hadn't heard of OSB sheathing before and thanks to Brien for pointing that out as a third option. I appreciate everyone taking time to help us out on our build.

Hello Mike, Like others, been following along on your project ... but what I haven't seen, and maybe missed it, is a SketchUP file that details out your structure along with the planned build. Again, I might have missed it. If you don't have one, then I foresee many 'unsuspecting' issue arise. [Well ... even with a detailed plan there will be issues} :? Just to relay ... I'm fortunate in that my younger brother is a contractor/builder ... but NOT building Studios. Even with all his years of experience, and capable crews ... it was difficult to explain the concepts to them ... especially when they hit you with what they ALWAYS do when building. Armed with detailed SketchUP file ... AND asking a ton of questions on this forum ... I best tried to be prepare for all the issues that came up. And they will. Sometimes the SAME issue, but in a different aspect. Fortunately ... again ... I had someone that was WILLING to stop and listen to the concept, and oft times, HUMOR me with compliance. Upon completion, the results speak for themselves!!! Yet ... the moment we go to another area, the USUAL work habit kicks in ... and again, a moment of re-focus is required to address the design criteria. Apologies if I'm out of line ... but just wanted to share what I, and many others here, have/had to deal with. With a 3D plan showing where every stick and panel goes, the builder can better see what has to happen. Like one of the 'Distinguished Ones' here said: "Planning is 90% of the build ... the other 10% is swingin hammers, dragging heavy sheets of heavy drywall ... and CAULKING like NOBODYs ever caulk before" ! Well ... I might have mis-quoted the original ... but what ever the line ... so true. In fact, I wished that I'd had more time in the planning stages ... there is so many things to consider, and doing it wrong is COSTLY, and a waste of time and resources. Through all this ....... I have a new Control Room that far exceeded my expectations ... ALL do to listening, studying the words of insight/direction/guidance from the Team on this forum. Of course, you have to do your homework ... and even still, its a battle just to try and NOT trip up, falling too far behind :lol: I still have work to do on my build ... but I'm currently in 'Recovery mode' by studying/ listening, and test mixing/ evaluating, to better understand what I need to do next! Sincerely.

Thanks for the encouragement RJ! I have a sketchup file near the beginning of the thread but it only shows the empty space. It took a while to get that file to where it is. I'm more proficient with the program now and should be able to get it to the next stage by Friday evening. I have a question regarding Rod Gervais' book and his plan for an independent ceiling (held up at the perimeter by interior isolated walls). He shows that the new joists require cross-bracing and therefore these new joists will need to be at least 3 5/8" from the bottom of the existing joists. My plan for putting the joists between existing joists didn't account for this new cross bracing. Without this cross-bracing, I was hoping to gain headroom in that the bottom of the new joists would only be lower than the existing joists by about a 1/4" instead of Rod's minimum of 3 5/8". My question is whether cross bracing is necessary for the new joists (there will be cross bracing for the existing joists)? Would sway braces be an alternative ($7 each adds up with all these joists). Would OSB sheathing be an alternative (if so, this would allow for green glue application). Tonight, our HVAC person will be taking down part of the ducts. I have ML board that I will be putting in the existing ducts. The extension of the ducts that he will complete tomorrow will include a 'canvas flexible connector' which I insisted on and he said would actually be easier to install than his initial plan of various connectors. While the ducts are down (partially), we will be beefing up the subfloor that we couldn't get to before. Also going to give a shot to making baffles I now also have SilentSeal caulking which should make the caulking easier.

"My question is whether cross bracing is necessary for the new joists (there will be cross bracing for the existing joists)? Would sway braces be an alternative ($7 each adds up with all these joists). Would OSB sheathing be an alternative (if so, this would allow for green glue application). Mike, You may not save a penny from either the purchase of sway braces versus adding the OSB to the framing to help with the lateral load (I said shearing up-topic, but I mis-spoke). But the pattern for installing the sway braces is not every 16 inches...so your numbers are way to high. The difference is that, if you were not including a framed ceiling then the walls would not stay in a straight line and you would have to use sway braces. Would also apply if you were using RC on the ceiling, since there is no way to keep the wall framing vertical and in a straight line when the ceiling is decoupled from the wall frames. To use OSB/plywood the requirement is that you have to include a wooden framed ceiling. Since it reads like you are using a wooden framed ceiling, then this is the better option, if not for the only reason that no one has to learn or experiment with an unknown (to them) attachment and how to correctly install it. Explain or ask your carpenters this: Why do you install 4' X8' sheets of OSB to the corners of the exterior perimeter of a structure? There are two correct answers. One is that it aids in the shearing ability of the wall due to the elements, the lateral load as well. Two is that it is cheaper than plywood, but you can't give the second answer with out hinting at the first answer. The reason you have bridging in a wood framed floor system, whether it is diagonal or blocking, is two fold. The first is that this connection between joists helps in the prevention of "roll over" of the joists. Now I cannot say with any authority that is only done to keep the framing crew safe when framing, or if it is too prevent roll over which would be a product of exterior forces on the structure that overcomes the ability of the structure to remain vertical...like a tornado, well, may not a tornado they do tend to make things explode, maybe more like a hurricane, a sustained high wind on the main body of a structure. The second is, and this is more important to me not with standing the safety of the framer which I have been and could be again, is to make the entire floor joist system work as one unit. Rather than have 15 individual joists taking the live load singular you develop a "unit" that is stronger than the individual. But to the ceiling of a room in a room, I wouldn't have any issue with not including the blocking/bridging...but everything would matter. A typical procedure in a ceiling is to include a strong back. If you have access to the attic of your home and climb up there you will see something like the following pic:This does essentially the same thing but it takes more over all head room to achieve, since the main component in the strong back, depending on the joist member sizing and span, is at least 5 and 1/2 of an inch. So if the span of your joists required this type of mating together of the members, like if it is 12 feet or more, then this method of strong backing would not suit your build since it will reduce your height, and bridging or blocking is the natural alternative. Also, cross bracing, while difficult, will yield the highest possible ceiling height available due to the criss/crossing voids of the bridging that is seen in Rods book.

Hello everyone, We had really amazing guys work on our duct work, which I will come back to shortly, who discovered that some of our joists are coming off the wall. We are having a friend who is an engineer over tonight to asses the situation before we hire someone to inspect it. This is something that the home inspector didn't notice when we bought the house two years ago. He must have not seen this problem because the air return duct concealed it. Our contractor and the HVAC guys both said that it's fixable. I don't expect this repair to be cheap. However, getting a structual engineer to report on all the joists and the load capacity will determine whether hanging a new ceiling on clips would be acceptable. I was always suspicious about those joists and clung to my aspiration of building a room-inside-a room. My contractors continue to fight me on the new joist instillation saying that there's no way they can stay up without a post in the middle of the room. In addition, I am still hazey on running new joists (I thought cross-bracing wouldn't be necessary for some reason). Now I understand that in this case (joists to run 14ft with a duct chase in the middle!) strong backing would be needed. Unfortunately, the resulting ceiling height would be unacceptable. I'm back to the use of Genie Clips for maximum ceiling height. For the framing that was already done, we'll cut out the connection to the joists to 'float' it and install 2 sway braces per wall. Back to the duct work, we did our best to acoustically insulate the ducts ... -ML Board http://www.acoustiguard.com/ML-Board/ 4 feet deep inside the remaining old duct and inside the rooms' two 3 feet duct silencers. -one canvas connector to join the new duct run which has acoustic liner That's all for now. I will be working on the SketchUp tonight...

Just wanted to share the update on our joist situation. We had an engineer over and he showed us how to remedy the joists seemingly coming out of the wall by the stairs. By first screwing in Joist hangers and then sistering a few feet of 2/6, the load can be distributed and joists reinforced. This solution doesn't seem like will impede the progress of our reno too much.

"We are having a friend who is an engineer over tonight to asses the situation before we hire someone to inspect it. " ?

I see your last post was back in Feb. I'm very interested to know how the project turned out. I'm in a similar situation myself. Did the ceilings and walls go up? Did it work?http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=17351#

I'm also interested in this... I'm in a similar situation as well.