Drum Room in basement

Hello everybody, I would like first to thank all professionals following this forum for all their good advices and also apologize for my bad english and my usage of European metrics. I’m located in Belgium (Brussels) I live in a small town house with adjacent neighbours at left and right My goal is to build a drum room. So main issue is for me (at first) soundproofing. How to keep at maximum sound level INSIDE the room? The room will have in is final configuration 9m². Hereunder you can see plan of the room as it is now and as I project to build it. http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1134/localasis.png http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/1038/localtobe.png I don’t want to make extra-long post, and I will ask my questions one by one. In is AS IS configuration the room as only 2.12m height. I did read all FAQ topics and especially the one about floating floor. As it is mentioned there are few projects where floating floors are really needed. But I think that in my project it will be necessary and even mandatory. The problem is that if I make a 15cm floating floor (resilient + joist + concrete) I will only have 198cm left. And if I take off the needed 15cm for the drywall ceiling, I only have 183 left, which is really not enough. To solve this problem I can take off the concrete slab the previous owner of the house as made fro paving which is 12cm. Under this slab there is older paving which are less leveled. Before getting started with this huge job I prefer have some professional advice about my situation. So, what is your opinion : do I have to build a concrete floating floor regarding the fact that I have neighbour at both side of my house. Thank you for your help

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Hi Stubah. Please check the rules for posting. You seem to be missing something... :) - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, It's strange i'm triyng to update my profile but the connections goes always to error. I will try this evening on another PC. My location is Brussel (Belgium) What is your opinion about my situation? Thank you for your help,

Profil updated. :yahoo:

Hi Everybody, Does anyone have suggestions? Thank you for you help.

So this room is just a practice room, for playing drums? Not for recording/mixing/mastering?

the room as only 2.12m height.

:shock: Wow! Not much height there. The final ceiling is going to be very low. Isolation ("soundproofing") takes up a lot of space...

there are few projects where floating floors are really needed. But I think that in my project it will be necessary and even mandatory

Is your house directly connected to the houses on each side, through the concrete floor? If not, then why do you think it will be necessary?

The problem is that if I make a 15cm floating floor (resilient + joist + concrete) I will only have 198cm left. And if I take off the needed 15cm for the drywall ceiling, I only have 183 left, which is really not enough.

Exactly. Not enough at all: you'd still need another 10 to 15 cm for the acoustic treatment on the ceiling, taking you down to 162 cm... To me, it doesn't sound like you have enough anywhere near enough space to do the floating floor.

To solve this problem I can take off the concrete slab the previous owner of the house as made fro paving which is 12cm. Under this slab there is older paving which are less leveled.

Is there any chance you can go even deeper? Maybe dig out that paving, and go down another 50 cm, for example? Also, what is above you? Is there any chance of raising that to a higher level? Once thing is clear: drums do not sound good in small rooms, and even worse if the ceiling is low. I'd do whatever it takes to increase your ceiling height. Final question (for now): What is your budget? Building a floating floor is expensive, and it looks like you will need to do some other major work before you even get to that point. This is not going to be cheap. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, Thank you for taking a little bit of your time for my problem

Soundman2020 wrote:

So this room is just a practice room, for playing drums? Not for recording/mixing/mastering?-

Yes! only practicing

:shock: Wow! Not much height there. The final ceiling is going to be very low. Isolation ("soundproofing") takes up a lot of space...-

Indeed. The2.12m are between the bottom of ceiling joist and the floor. I have an extra air gap of 18cm between joist (see pictures underneath)

Is your house directly connected to the houses on each side, through the concrete floor? If not, then why do you think it will be necessary?-

That's a tuff question. Honestly, I don't know and i thought it was always the case for two faces houses! I will have to get information on this. The house is from 1920, i don't think that the builder of the house is still alive :| . Is there a way to know that without breaking everything (mesurement tools?).

Is there any chance you can go even deeper? Maybe dig out that paving, and go down another 50 cm, for example?-

I don't know. I''ll check!

Also, what is above you? Is there any chance of raising that to a higher level?-

No! it's my living room.

Once thing is clear: drums do not sound good in small rooms, and even worse if the ceiling is low. I'd do whatever it takes to increase your ceiling height.-

You're right, drums love space. But anyway it's really going to sound better than my electronic drumkit :wink: But now i'm sure floating floor or not : i will have to take off, at leats, the first slab. Should it be a good option not to make a floating floor but increasing the weight of the walls/ceilings, increasing a little bit the air gaps and making only a drum raiser (i've seen post on that subjects on this forum).

Final question (for now): What is your budget? Building a floating floor is expensive, and it looks like you will need to do some other major work before you even get to that point. This is not going to be cheap.-

I hope that with 3500€ it will be enough. All work will be done by myself or with the help of friends (pro). So the € are only foreseen for material and logistics and I suppose a lot of beers for my 'guests ' :lol: Thanks in advance for your advices Didier http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/8109/24112011305.jpg Uploaded with ImageShack.us http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8867/24112011304.jpg Uploaded with ImageShack.us http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/3040/24112011303.jpg Uploaded with ImageShack.us http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4146/24112011302.jpg Uploaded with ImageShack.us

That's a tuff question. Honestly, I don't know and i thought it was always the case for two faces houses! I will have to get information on this. The house is from 1920, i don't think that the builder of the house is still alive :| . Is there a way to know that without breaking everything (mesurement tools?).

The best indicator is if the wall of your house is also the same wall as the house next door: in other words, there is only one wall that divides the houses, not two separate walls. If there is only one wall, then your house is coupled to theirs, and you have a problem. If there are two walls (even with a tiny gap between them), then you might be on separate slabs, which is good. Another way is to check for flanking paths with impact sound. Get your neighbor to tap on his basement floor with a small hammer or other metallic object, and see if you can hear it in the floor of your room. If so, then you are coupled, on the same slab. If not, then you are in luck!

Should it be a good option not to make a floating floor but increasing the weight of the walls/ceilings, increasing a little bit the air gaps and making only a drum raiser (i've seen post on that subjects on this forum).

Isolating the room has to be done to the same level all around. Building a floating floor but then not isolating the walls well is a wast of time and money: they walls have to be done to the same level as the floor. The room is an entire system that all acts together, not each piece individually. In other words, if you build your floating floor to achieve 70 dB of isolation, but then only build the walls for 60 db isolation and the ceiling for 40 db isolation, then you have built the entire room for 40. In that case, you wasted a lot of money on the walls and floor, since the ceiling defines the total isolation. The room only isolates as well as the weakest part. This is easy to understand: Go park your car in a noisy place, and then sit inside it with all the windows closed. Listen carefully. That's the maximum isolation your car offers. Now open one window just 2 cm. How much isolation are you getting from the rest of the car? NOTHING! You can clearly hear everything outside, because the weakest point is now that window: The entire isolation for the whole car is defined by that one window being open just a little bit. Same with your room: all six sides must be done to the same level. You cannot compensate for bad isolation on one side by making another side better. That would be like trying to "fix" the window problem in your car by spreading blankets over the OTHER windows: you would be trying to fix a problem that does not exist (since the other windows are already isolating as well as they can), and not fixing the real problem: the open window. In any event, a drum riser is a very good option, especially considering your budget: you don't really have enough money available to float your floor properly, and a drum riser is a good alternative. It won't keep airborne sound out of the floor, of course, but it will keep impact sound out of the floor, and that's good. So you should probably plan to isolate the walls and ceiling, and the door(s) and window(s) (if any) to the maximum level you can afford on your budget, and also build a drum riser. Regarding your ceiling: You will need to seal that floor above you, and beef it up with more mass, but check with a structural engineer to find out how much mass you can add safely. Right now that floor is not isolating much at all! It needs to be sealed. Also, there is a method for saving room height, where you interleave your new joists for the new ceiling in between the existing joists for the floor above, leaving the bottom of the new joists just an inch or two lower than the bottom of the old joists. You can probably save at least 10 cm of room height if you do that carefully! :) - Stuart -

Hi stuart, Again thank you for your comments which are really helping me

Soundman2020 wrote:

[The best indicator is if the wall of your house is also the same wall as the house next door: in other words, there is only one wall that divides the houses, not two separate walls. If there is only one wall, then your house is coupled to theirs, and you have a problem. If there are two walls (even with a tiny gap between them), then you might be on separate slabs, which is good. Another way is to check for flanking paths with impact sound. Get your neighbor to tap on his basement floor with a small hammer or other metallic object, and see if you can hear it in the floor of your room. If so, then you are coupled, on the same slab. If not, then you are in luck!-

I have a good feeling about this because i've noticed, doing other jobs in my house, that there is two walls with 10cm air gap between. But i'll make a double check on that and try to convince my neigbhour to do your hammer test.

Isolating the room has to be done to the same level all around. Building a floating floor but then not isolating the walls well is a wast of time and money: they walls have to be done to the same level as the floor. The room is an entire system that all acts together, not each piece individually. In other words, if you build your floating floor to achieve 70 dB of isolation, but then only build the walls for 60 db isolation and the ceiling for 40 db isolation, then you have built the entire room for 40. In that case, you wasted a lot of money on the walls and floor, since the ceiling defines the total isolation. The room only isolates as well as the weakest part. This is easy to understand: Go park your car in a noisy place, and then sit inside it with all the windows closed. Listen carefully. That's the maximum isolation your car offers. Now open one window just 2 cm. How much isolation are you getting from the rest of the car? NOTHING! You can clearly hear everything outside, because the weakest point is now that window: The entire isolation for the whole car is defined by that one window being open just a little bit. Same with your room: all six sides must be done to the same level. You cannot compensate for bad isolation on one side by making another side better. That would be like trying to "fix" the window problem in your car by spreading blankets over the OTHER windows: you would be trying to fix a problem that does not exist (since the other windows are already isolating as well as they can), and not fixing the real problem: the open window.-

That is clear as crystal.

In any event, a drum riser is a very good option, especially considering your budget: you don't really have enough money available to float your floor properly, and a drum riser is a good alternative. It won't keep airborne sound out of the floor, of course, but it will keep impact sound out of the floor, and that's good. So you should probably plan to isolate the walls and ceiling, and the door(s) and window(s) (if any) to the maximum level you can afford on your budget, and also build a drum riser.

:? I thought i had a comfortable budget for my 9m² room... Damn it's expensive

Regarding your ceiling: You will need to seal that floor above you, and beef it up with more mass, but check with a structural engineer to find out how much mass you can add safely. Right now that floor is not isolating much at all! It needs to be sealed..

Above the ceiling i have a 7cm concrete slab + paving. I suppose that when you say more mass I have to put x layers of plasterboard between the ceiling joist. Am I right? is there other possibilities to increase mass between ceiling joist?

Also, there is a method for saving room height, where you interleave your new joists for the new ceiling in between the existing joists for the floor above, leaving the bottom of the new joists just an inch or two lower than the bottom of the old joists. You can probably save at least 10 cm of room height if you do that carefully! :)..

Yes! I 've seen some project on this forum where this method is used and in fact it's a really good idea. but i have an issue on that and will explain it with pictures later. Have a nice week end Didier,

I thought i had a comfortable budget for my 9m² room... Damn it's expensive

Yup! Welcome to the world of studio building! First rule: Take the number you first thought of, multiply it by a random factor of between 2 and 6 (chosen with high precision by rolling dice, flipping coins, etc.) then add a zero on the end for good luck. That should get you close.... :) Seriously, there are factors that you haven't considered, but will have to, as they are rather important: HVAC is one. Your room will be have two complete air-tight seals around it, so you will not live long if you try to work in there for more than a few minutes: You have to BREATHE, and that means that you need a system to bring in fresh air with oxygen to keep you alive, and also to take out the CO2 and stale air. That system needs to be isolated too, so sound doesn't leak through it. The room will also be surrounded with very thick layers of thermal insulation material: it will get hot in their real fast, just from you and your equipment being in there: So you need some way of cooling the air in there, and dehumidifying it too: In other words, you need a small air conditioning and ventilation system. That costs money....

Above the ceiling i have a 7cm concrete slab + paving.

From the photos, it looks like wood flooring up there! So there's concrete on top of the wood?

I suppose that when you say more mass I have to put x layers of plasterboard between the ceiling joist. Am I right? is there other possibilities to increase mass between ceiling joist?

If you have a concrete slab up there, on top of those floor board, then you don't need more mass: that's fine, just like it is. You just need to seal it somehow. - Stuart -

Stuart, I think that now I have enough information to begin pre-model the room and estimate my budget (including of course the HVAC issue). Yes the concrete is above the wood on the picture. so, My ceiling has enough mass : again good news!! :yahoo: My project is slowly beginning concrete. Thanks again!!

"Quote: Is your house directly connected to the houses on each side, through the concrete floor? If not, then why do you think it will be necessary?- That's a tuff question. Honestly, I don't know and i thought it was always the case for two faces houses! I will have to get information on this. The house is from 1920, i don't think that the builder of the house is still alive :| . Is there a way to know that without breaking everything (mesurement tools?). " Chances are stubah, that not only are the slabs connected, the walls are most likely singular with a shared roof. Building science has been much improved over the decades,, but in those times (circa 1920) of "bigger is better and usually faster", monolith slabs were the deal of the day. Your country used and still uses, block and concrete AND brick (which are heavy and dense) with wood joists that support upper floors. The chances of your foundation slab having a disconnect from your neighbors house is small...fact is the chances of your house NOT being connected in some way at SOME point, is non-existent. This is not bad news for you, since knowing is half the battle and if you know what you are up against, you can over come it most times with the proper attention to detail and technique towards design and the implementation of this project from either you are the treads-men that you might employ. A double frame wall assembly would not have been known in those days to produce the desired benefit that we now can use in our design and construction of high sound isolated environments. So if it exists, it is most likely a structural wall with a specific purpose, with no real benefit for want of an isolated room.

Hi, About the floor : Brien, thank you for your intervention and your knowledge of belgian building techniques. Reading your comments, I suppose then, that I cannot ignore to float my floor. Or the drum raiser in this case would be sufficient? I know this is not easy to answer these question without being in the house. And if any information can help you to help me, please let me know. About the ceiling : The idea to put new joists between the existing joists is good for my height problem, and regarding the fact that my room is small i can totally disconnect the new ceiling by placing new joist of 3m on the new walls. My problem is that all existing joists are not parralel. In the middle of the room, next to the left wall I have 1 perpendicular joist which is there because at this place was an old fire place (chimney) (see pictures). So that means that if I want to keep much height as possible, I have 3 joist that I will not be able to connect on the two walls because I have an old joist in the way. Here are the different scenario I have : 1 : Take out this perpandicular joist and the three smaller joists and place three new long joists in order to have only parralel joists. Honnestly this is my last option :as it is a dangereous job and i don't have enough build knwoledge to do this by myself it will be expensive. (but on the paper this is the best option) 2 : Place heavy joist where I can and in the problem zone place more but lighter joist. This option could work but i will loose some room height. 3 : Place heavy joist where I can and in the problem zone also use heavy but shorter joist and suspend them to the existing ceiling using specific acoustic material. This could also work but i will loose some db , I suppose? What is your opinion on my problem and which scenario seems the better one? have you other ideas? Thank for your time and your help, Didier

There's another option: Only in that small area, move the wall out a bit so that it is in the right place to support the ceiling without losing any height. Yes, you'd lose a bit of space since you'd have a small part of that wall that is "jogged" inwards a bit, but it simplifies construction and avoids having to do "dangerous" things! - Stuart -

Hi Stuart, You're right, this is another option I have. but if I do that i'd loose 0.5m². :( But your idea was open minded and I think I could solve this with 'special joist'. The pictures underneath gives you an idea of this solution. It seems a little bit more complicate to build but I only loose some height room under this small area and I keep disconnected ceiling. Can you give me your opinion? Of course I first have to calculate the weight such joist could support but with strong one's (maybe wider) it could work.

I'm really not sure if that is feasible. I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't tell if you that is a good idea or not, and it probably depends on how you make those "staggered" joists. You should probably ask a structural engineer about that. - Stuart -

I would think that would be rather expensive in terms of specially cut lumber. You might consider just overlapping the upper joists and lower joists and then joining them and reinforcing the joint with steel plates bolted thorught both joists. Considering that these additional joist only need to support the new cieling and not the weight of the floor above (and whatever furnishings), I think this would work.

How much of the new joist would you lose if you notched out the area for the old joist to run through - leaving a little clearance space on each side? I had a similar situation and did just that. I cut into my new joists less than half an inch. I had over spec'd my joists anyway and was sure that this small notch would not effect the integrity. Then I just built a chase/soffit around the beam that was hanging lower. With the chase/soffit it does add some extra work. I'm no structural engineer either, but you might consider that instead of the "fancy" joists you are showing. Just a suggestion.

Brihar, Yes it is exactly what I was thinking about. If this work, this is the best option I have. mshetler, I'm not sure to really understand what you propose Is this like this? If yes I cannot do that as I want to keep much room height as possible. The small part of the joist would then be too thin (2cm). About the floating floor Stuart, I'm wondering why you say that it would be really expensive to build a concrete floating floor? Even if I don't do the slab myself I can estimate the cost of the floating floor at 800€ Slab of 6cm (material + FTE) : 250€ (less if I do it myself) OSB wood under the slab 18mm + joist : 200€ Rockwool : 100€ Silent block : 250€ (quick estimation) Am I missing something? Is 6cm too thin? Would it be heavy enough? Thank you all for your advices. Didier

Slab of 6cm (material + FTE) : 250€ (less if I do it myself) OSB wood under the slab 18mm + joist : 200€ Rockwool : 100€ Silent block : 250€ (quick estimation)

I don't see how you are floating it there: Where are your springs? You need to support the new slab on proper acoustic isolation mounts, such as these: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/lsm.aspx I don't see anything equivalent in your list above. Also, where are your calculations? It's hard to say if you are doing things right if you don't show your calculations. How did you figure that a 6cm slab has enough mass to get the MSM resonance down low enough? What is your target MSM frequency? What size air gap did you use in your calculations? How are you going to seal the cavity? - Stuart -

That is what I meant, but when you show it like that I can see how it is much different than my application. I actually went over top of the beam in mine. The beam was under the existing joists in my situation, so I could put my new joists above the beam as well, but still have them the 1/4" below the existing ones by notching around the beam.

I don't see how you are floating it there: Where are your springs? You need to support the new slab on proper acoustic isolation mounts, such as these: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/lsm.aspx I don't see anything equivalent in your list above. Also, where are your calculations? It's hard to say if you are doing things right if you don't show your calculations. How did you figure that a 6cm slab has enough mass to get the MSM resonance down low enough? What is your target MSM frequency? What size air gap did you use in your calculations? How are you going to seal the cavity?

To be honest I did'nt do any calculation for that. I just followed some advices I picked up on other forums and threads. Anyway, I think (not 100% sure) I will not do the the floating floor, but as you said before put more effort and € on the walls and doors (i'm not planning to have window). Next step for me is to design the wall framing. But first question I have : is this absoloutly necessary to fix the wall frame to the floor? I've seen in other topics that this is better if the house is located in an earthquake zone. But here in belgium we don't have earthquakes or at least we don't feel them. In normal construction I would not ask but when we are talking about insulation maybe this could have advantage not to have screw thru the frame and the floor. Thanks again

But first question I have : is this absoloutly necessary to fix the wall frame to the floor? I've seen in other topics that this is better if the house is located in an earthquake zone. But here in belgium we don't have earthquakes or at least we don't feel them. In normal construction I would not ask but when we are talking about insulation maybe this could have advantage not to have screw thru the frame and the floor.

I would imagine that your building code requires that the walls be bolted to the floor! You should call your municipality and ask, or even better get a copy of the building code and read it yourself, so you know what is and is not allowed. In any event, even if it is not allowed I would still bolt it down: it's just common sense. However, there are some forms of isolation collars for doing this. See here: http://www.soundisolationstore.com/plit ... nking.html http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/isol ... r-bushings http://www.cmsantivibration.co.uk/produ ... ollars.htm Etc. rather expensive, I think, but if you really want to do that then there are ways. But then you need to calculate carefully the total weight of each wall, including the ceiling that will rest on it, to make sure you are using the correct underlay. IT has to be compressed just right in order to isolate.

To be honest I did'nt do any calculation for that. I just followed some advices I picked up on other forums and threads.

Well, doing the calculations is very important! There are many thousands of ways to build a studio wrong, and just a few to build it right. Your chances of getting it right by shear luck, without calculating anything, are practically zero. The floor will have a resonant frequency that is set by the mass of the leaves and the air gap between them. At the resonant frequency the floor is transparent to sound, and allows it to pass through very well. That frequency must be designed such that it is no more than half of the lowest frequency that you need to isolate. If you don't put enough mass on the leaves, or enough air gap between them, or enough damping material in the air gap, then the frequency will be too high and your floor will not isolate for things like drums, bass, keyboards... The same applies to the walls and ceiling. You have to design these things correctly: they won't just happen by luck! - Stuart -

Hi everybody, I did design the framing of my room. Hereunder you have picture and sketchup. In belgium wood framing is not really common. And on belgan construction sites, i have also read that Steel framing is better than wood framing for insulation. Anyway i did choose wood for two reason :

1* I've read on this site that wood is better for what I want to achieve. 2* As I want to have a free standing ceiling, wood will be stronger to support it

Can you confirm this two postulate? Some explanation/question of my design

1* I use 5cm*10cm wood framing (what kind of wood do I have to use?) 2* In belgium plasterboard sizes are 240*120 so i double the framing every 120cm (in steel framing this is the common way to do,is it necessary for wood framing?) 3* I place small wood studs between vertical studs (is it necessary) 4* Is my framing for doors correct? 5* I've seen on other framing that the upper studs are doubled to support the ceiling. Do I have to do that? I will use two or three leaf of plasterboard fro the ceiling. 6* Is my corner design correct?

If you could take a quick look on the framing and tell me if I'm in the good way, it would be very welcomed.