New Mixing Room help

Hi everyone. I want to build a new mixingroom.The biggest problem is that the room is almost a square.Although iv'e done a lot of research i dont know how to get started.The room is in a one room appartment on the ground floor. The windows have to be sealed to avoid sound getting out as well the ceilling.Im not sure about walls since there's a Restaurant on the righthand side and no other neighbours on the same floor. I dont think there should be any problems concerning the budget. The room is w 4,39m x L 4,28m x H 2,78m I would appreciate any help i could get.

Can you give me more details (dimensions and height)?

Can you give me more details (dimensions and height)?

Ummmm I think he already did! :shock: Hi Andrew, and welcome to the forum!

The biggest problem is that the room is almost a square.

You are right: your room dimensions and ratio are not good, and the analysis shows several modes lining up pretty close to each other. The easiest solution is to change the ratio when you build your inner leaf. You don't say how much isolation you need, and that's important, so please try to give us a rough number for that. It's the basis for how you need to build the room!

The windows have to be sealed to avoid sound getting out as well the ceilling.

Sealing is very important, of course, but that isn't all you need to do to isolate the room! What you have is your outer leaf: you need to build the inner leaf. Both must be sealed.

Im not sure about walls since there's a Restaurant on the righthand side and no other neighbours on the same floor.

Isolation has to be the same on all sides in order to work. If you only isolate three sides, then you didn't isolate anything at all! Same for 4 sides, or 5 sides. You have to isolate all 6 sides of the room to the same level.

Although iv'e done a lot of research i dont know how to get started

Let's start with two things: First, how much isolation do you need? Measure that with a sound level meter (how loud you are, how quite you need to be). That number is very important for deciding on the type of building method that will work for you. Second. What do you want to do in that room? Is this for recording instruments and also mixing and also mastering and also rehearsing? Or just for mixing? One room? Two rooms? More? Is it a commercial studio, or just a hobby studio? What type of music? What type of equipment? Etc. Tell us everything about what your goals are, so that we can help you design it. It is a decent size space (although the ceiling isn't very high) and you should be able to make it into a nice studio. - Stuart -

hi stuart and thanks for your reply. I will try to give you as much information and details as i can. The main purpose of this room is for mixing mainly hip hop and electronic music so music with all lot of lowfrequency content.It´s gonna be a project studio.I'm gonna use jbls lsr4328s monitor which i would preferable like to flushmount.I wont be using a mixing board and do all the mixing in the box. I totally agree that i have to isolate all walls to achieve a good result.So i will basic have build room in room on a floating floor? I dont know how fast i can get measurements since i dont have the equipment and knowledge to do this. I was wondering if there is some kind of comprimise between optimal isolation without loosing too much space. Is there any standard i could aim to achieve concernig the decibels?I guess the more the better in my case. Thanx so far Andrew

So i will basic have build room in room on a floating floor?

Room-in-a-room: Yes. Floating floor: No. You most likely do not need that. If you have a concrete slab floor on the ground, with nothing underneath you, then you are most likely fine. Floating an entire room is complicated, very expensive, and hard to do right. There's about a million ways to do it wrong, and only one way of doing it right. You also do not have enough room height to be able to float. With only 2.78 m, that's already low and you are going to loose a lot of that with the isolation ceiling anyway.

I dont know how fast i can get measurements since i dont have the equipment and knowledge to do this.

All you need is a basic sound level meter, and a full-range loudspeaker that can produce at least 90 dB. Not complicated. All we need to now is how loud you are in there right now, how loud things are around you, and how quite you have to be. All we need is a single number stating how much isolation you need. But you can't guess: If you guess to low, then the studio will end up not isolated properly, and either the neighbors will call the police all the time, or you'll be annoyed all the time by externals noises. And if you guess too high, then the isolation will work great, but it will take up more space than is necessary, and you will have wasted a lot of money on materials you didn't need! So that number is important. Beg, borrow or buy a meter. A cheap one costs about US$ 50 to US$ 100 on Amazon, e-Bay, etc.

I was wondering if there is some kind of comprimise between optimal isolation without loosing too much space.

Yes there is, but them you need some SERIOUS amounts of money! You can have fantastic isolation, lose almost no space, and for very little money! Just pick ONE of the above... :) In other words, the three are mutually exclusive. If you want great isolation, it can be low cost but will use lot's of space, or it can fit into little space but then it will be very expensive, as you need exotic materials and techniques, such as steel plate or sheet lead... Basically, there is only one way to keep sound in or out of your room: Mass. Lots of mass. That means you need very heavy materials. The cheap heavy materials take up a lot of space. The thin heavy materials are very expensive. It's that simple.

Is there any standard i could aim to achieve concernig the decibels?

Well, yes! That's part of the process of deciding how much isolation you need. Look at the standard NC curves to see which one best fits your needs. Then measure the amount of ambient noise around your room, to see how high the level is. Subtract "A" from "B", and you have your answer! That's the MINIMUM isolation that will work for you, to keep OUT sounds that would otherwise disturb you. That's one part of the process. But it says nothing at all about the other part: How loud YOU are INSIDE the room, and what the legal requirements are for noise in your area. For example, if you are going to mix at 100 dB, and the noise regulations say that you cannot make more noise than 30 dB, then you need 70 dB of isolation, which is really hard to do. But if you are going to mix at 85 dB and the noise regulations allow you to go to 55 dB, then you only need 30 dB of isolation, which is really easy to do. Just so you get the picture: isolating to 70 dB is about one thousand times harder than isolating to 30 dB. I mean that very literally. To stop 70 dB of sound, your walls must absorb one thousand times as much energy as for 30 dB. That's why it is important that you get a meter and make some measurements. If you isolate to 70 dB and only need 30, then you spent a huge amount of money that you didn't need to. If you isolate to 30 but really need 70, then you'll be spending a lot of time talking to the cops, and to the judge, and paying fines.... :)

I guess the more the better in my case.

More is always better, but can you afford it? :) Cost goes up really fast when you need very high levels of isolation. Why pay more than you need to? :) - Stuart -

Sorry I was a bit busy the last weeks. I've ordered a sound level meter wich i will get in a few days.What do sound do i have to produce with the speaker?Pink noise ?Is a full range speaker 20hz -20khz?There are only two sides outside of the room where i will be able to measure.Will that be enough to get a good result? thanks Andrew

Set up your system to play the same kind of music that you will be making inside, at the same level that you will normally be making it. So if it is a full rock band, then set it up to produce somewhere around 110 dB, peaking to 115 or so. Wear ear protection while you do this test, of course, and let the neighbors know in advance that you'll be testing, so they don't call the cops on you! Play several different songs, some with heavy bass content, some with screaming vocals, etc. Yes, "full range" means 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Measure is as many places as you can, both close to the walls and further away, at the property line. - Stuart -

Hi as Andrew, i have to get some measurements. So after reading this topic i did some researches on ebay for a SML, and i've found this. Stuart, do you think one of that would be ok? i'm aking you because i'm not experienced at all with that stuff. Regards Luka

Hi Luka, It's probably OK, but they don't give enough specifications about it there! You need one that can measure with both "A" and "C" weighting, and that can be set to both "fast" and "slow" response. Some meters have more features, which is fine, but you need at least the above. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

You need one that can measure with both "A" and "C" weighting, and that can be set to both "fast" and "slow" response.

Tell 'em why Stuart :P

Sure! A meter without "A" and "C" weighting is most likely linear, which isn't much use, since the human ear is not linear. The weighting curves adjust the sensitivity of the meter to different frequencies, making it more sensitive to some tones than others. "A" weighting is designed more for industrial measurements of low level noise, and also used by audiologists, who need to relate sound levels to the full range of human hearing, and the damage that can be done by loud noises at all frequencies. The "A" weighting curve is an approximation of the actual sensitivity of the human ear, and gives much higher priority to mid-high and high frequencies, and less to low frequencies. It is also the scale used by most municipal noise ordinances. which is great for us as it gives less "weight" to low frequencies, and studios do tend to produce lots of lows, which are the hardest to isolate. "C" weighting is more realistic for loud sounds in general, such as speakers playing music: it gives more weight to lower frequencies, which is more how our ears work when sounds get very loud: for quite sounds, we tend to hear higher frequencies better than lows (like "A" weighting), but when things get loud, our hearing sensitive flattens out somewhat, and we hear low frequencies similar to highs. So "C" is more useful for understanding how loud we really are, and how well our walls are really isolating, across the full spectrum. It's more realistic for real-world studio measurements. The "slow" and "fast" settings basically make the meter more or less sensitive to peaks: put it on "fast" and it it will tell you more about the sudden brief peaks that might be present in sounds. Put it on "slow" and it averages out the levels over a period of 250 ms. "Slow" is more useful for us usually, as we want to get an idea of the overall level of the music, and the overall level of isolation, but "fast" is sometimes useful for some things, like impact noise and to catch peaks that might not be obvious. Normally, you'll use the meter on "C" weighting, slow response, unless the cops come knocking on your door with a complaint, in which case you switch it to "A", which is what they most likely use, and greatly favors you anyway, since it is much less sensitive to heavy low frequency content, such as drums and bass, escaping from your room! :) There are other scales too, but we don't need them much for studio design or live sound work. Although if your meter has Leq, that could be useful. (It's kind of a very long term average, or "noise dose" type measurement). That's pretty much all you need to know. When you use the meter, hold it far away from your body with your arm almost fully extended, at chest height, and angled upwards at about 30-45 degrees (mic pointing a bit upwards, between the horizon and the ceiling/sky). That is supposed to give you the most accurate readings. If you have a bit extra money to spare and want a meter that does everything, even generating pink noise, showing the level in each of 31 frequency bands, and checking things like phase and RT-60, then get a Phonic PAA-3: I love mine! It's more than most people need (more of a spectrum analyzer than just a sound level meter), but I find it VERY useful. - Stuart -

Stuart, i've found on a website the specifications for the meter i linked. It has all the characteristics we need. I'm going to buy it, and thanks to you now i know how to use it properly. Best Tutorial Ever! Thanks sooo much Man Regards Luka

I finally got the sound level meter and it has A and C weighting. I want to rent a loudspeaker and allready did some research for full range speakers but the speakers i found usually start at 45 - 65 hz. Do you think i could use the JBL JRX 125 ?It says it a fullrange speaker allthough it starts at 45 hz.Could you recommend me a speaker? thanks Andrew

did some research for full range speakers but the speakers i found usually start at 45 - 65 hz.

There's a big difference between starting at 45 Hz and starting at 65 Hz! That's half an octave. But having said that, speakers don't just suddenly cut off to zero at the lowest frequency: the response rolls off gradually. The number is normally the point where it has dropped to 3 dB below the average, but it is still putting out energy below that. But if you can't find a good full-range speaker, then get a mediocre one plus a sub-woofer and a cross over. The sub should take you down to 30 Hz or even lower, and that's probably good enough. - Stuart -

Happy new year to everyone . Finally got the chance to do the sound measurements and wanted to share them.I also remeasured the room and did an update since i did a mistake measuring the ceiling height.I added the new file at the bottom. I only had the opportunity to measure inside of one side of a neighbouring apparment but i think it should be around the same value for the neighbour above and on the other side of the staircase.(the appartment is groundfloor) I measured using the c weighting between 110 and 115db and got following results. Outside of the appartment on the windowside :100,8 db Inside the Staircase in front of the appartment :103,1 db One floor above our appartment in the staircase :84,1 db Inside the neighbours appartment to the rightside :81db I hope you can work with these numbers. Thanks for your patience Andrew

need some help here anyone?

hey stuart do you think its possible to realize a studio with these values? I really would like to know becuase if so i would like to get started soon but i need some feedback. Please :(

Somehow I missed your post, Andrew! Sorry about that! :oops: OK, so you are getting about 10 to 15 dB of isolation out the front (practically nothing), and around 30 dB upstairs and to your long-suffering neighbor. Not that much at all. You don't say how much isolation you need, though, but I'm assuming you want to keep everyone happy and not have cops visiting you regularly, so I guess you are aiming to keep the levels down to 40-something outside your room while you are going wild inside. You say this is only going to be for mixing, ie, a control room, so I'm assuming your monitoring levels will mostly be at the standard level of 85 dB, maybe hitting 100 every now and then briefly. So it would seem that you need around 50 dB of isolation. But I'm making a lot of assumptions there! Anyway, assuming that all of the above is true, then I'd say that yes, you do have a good chance of being able to make that room usable. There's a lot that you'll need to do, and it looks like there might be some issues with your windows and radiators, but if you do things right then you should be able to achieve good isolation and good acoustics. The other thing you didn't mention, is your budget! That's rather important, too! - Stuart -

No problem stuart :) Youre assumption are correct as far as im concerned.Its only gonna be a mixing room for Hip-hop music.I think 50 db or if possible 55- 60 db just to be on the safe side would be enough.I think i should upload photo of the radiators and pipes so you can get a better picture of the situation.I dont necessarily need windows so its no problem to seal them.I guess we will need some fresh air supply aswell. The budget will be around 6000-8000 euros.I hope that will be enough.I will supply you with all informations you need. thanks Andrew

?

Stuart? Do you think that will be enough?

Here I go again, not seeing your posts!!!! So your goal is around 55 dB of isolation, and you don't mind putting in a proper window plug, so the remaining issue so far is the radiators.

The budget will be around 6000-8000 euros.I hope that will be enough.

You should be able to isolate the room for that, I reckon, if you do all the work yourself. To get that level of isolation, I'd go with an two-leaf decoupled MSM plan, the same as you see on practically all of the build threads here on the forum. It's the only way to get good isolation at low cost. Maybe you could post photos of the room as it is now, and an update of your SKP with the basic plan, including the window plug and whatever you come up with for dealing with the radiators. Then we can take a look at your plan and perhaps make some suggestions about improving it. - Stuart -

Sorry for my late replies Stuart. Here are some pictures of the room.I think i will need some help with the layout.I dont know where to get started.I will try to do a layout but i wont be able to do the framing part.I think the best side to do the soffitmounting is right from the windows opposite from the door.What about using angles on the ceiling or the soffitmounted speakerside?So Msm means mass spring mass and i dont understand how to apply this to my room.How do i use springs in this sytem? What is a windowplug?I thought i wont need one since i plan on not having windows. thanks Andrew

hey stuart,I tried to do a layout but i really dont know how to get started with this room. Do think you could help me to get started? I would appreciate it. thanks Andrew

Hi Andrew. First, isolation: Your floor looks like a raised wooden floor, not the concrete slab I had assumed. Can you confirm how that is built? Since this is a ground floor apartment, I expected that the floor would be concrete laid directly on the ground. Is that correct? Second, the windows: I suggest that you remove those existing windows and frames, and replace them with a single piece of thick laminate glass (something like 12mm or so, at least) in new heavy wooden frames, that are well sealed to the walls. Third, the walls: What are they? Brick? Concrete? Drywall on studs? Something else? Are teh interior walls the same as the exterior walls, or are they different? Specifically, the wall with the door in it: Is that brick, or is it drywall on studs? Fourth, the radiators: They have to go. You can't build your "room-in-a-room" with those in the way. Fifth, HVAC. You are going to need some method of getting fresh air into your room and exhausting the stale air: Have you thought about that? You can probably install some form of HVAC ducts in the area where the windows are right now. Sixth, electrical: Where is the distribution panel, or at least the connections for the two circuits that you will be using to supply your studio? Those have to come into the room somewhere. Seventh, ceiling: How is it built? It's an apartment block, so I guess it is concrete? Eighth, budget: You said that you thought budget would not be a problem, but it would be good to know what range of numbers you are thinking about: Some materials are very good but expensive, so if you have the budget then those can be included. If not, then you can only use cheap materials. OK, with all that in place, which is your outer leaf, you need to decide on the shape and dimensions for your inner-leaf, and then for your treatment. Probably your easiest route is to take a look at all of John's designs and other designs on the forum, choose one that is similar to what you need and to close to the size of your room, and the adapt it. Your room is nearly square, so I'd probably do splayed walls if I were designing this room. You have a slight advantage with the room facing the windows, so I'd use that orientation. And I'd try to move the door forward a meter or so, to give you better arrangement at the rear of the room. So draw up a basic layout based on the above, and post it here for more comments! :) - Stuart -