Voice recording studio in Russia

Dear all, I've been reading this forum for few months as we do sound/ voice/ etc. recording for movies and we were planning to build own studio and leave the one we rent. We recently got a great chance to do this. I've purchased a 66 m2 basement in an old (100 years old) public building - 11m long by 6m wide and about 2.52m high (too low?). Windows are about 1m x 1m. It is in the yard, but some street noise is still a minor problem. Major problem is an apartment above with just thin concrete and bricks (amazing bricks on the ceiling) layer between us. Another problem are hot water pipes along two walls, where we'll need to build a coridor for technitians to get in and observe them from time to time. Here is my draft. I appologize for using a pencil and hope it is not a huge problem. Whatever is pink is a given space. We need to enable 2 groups to work, e.g. 2 control rooms and 2 studio rooms. Will prefer to keep at least 1 window in each of control rooms. Could you please criticize. Thank you so much in advance. Sofia

Looking at my plan and see there is something wrong in it.. Does anyone have a ready solution design for two control rooms and two small studio rooms fit into rectangle space? I'd really appreciate.

Still hoping to get any reply :) (don't know what I'm doing wrong at this forum). Apart from future layout I started thinking about the construction piece of my project. Got stucked at the point if I'd better float or not float the floor (after reading the reference and other topics). Background is the following: Basement has concrete floor of unknow (few sm I assume) thikness on the ground. No neighbours on sides behind nearly 1 m thick brick walls. BUT noisy street is just round the corner. Neighbours are above and make some obvious noise. Original (now) ceiling height is just 2.5 m. If someone could recommend that I a) don't float floors, build walls on current basement floor with sylomer pads underneath and have new ceiling hang over the new walls b) same as a) without sylomer pads c) float the timber floor with sylomer pads, build walls and ceiling on new floor Thank you very much in advance!

Hi Sofia. Welcome!

(don't know what I'm doing wrong at this forum).

You are not doing anything wrong! It sometimes happens that new posts don't get noticed immediately, and then get lost way down the list somewhere... If that happens, and you don't get a response after a couple of days, it is OK to add a post saying "Bump!", to put it back at the top again.

Got stucked at the point if I'd better float or not float the floor (after reading the reference and other topics).

Probably not necessary, unless you are getting direct impact noise through the building structure, or very low frequency noise from that road.

No neighbours on sides behind nearly 1 m thick brick walls.

One meter thick!? Wow! That's thick! :shock: But very good, acoustically, for isolation.

BUT noisy street is just round the corner. Neighbours are above and make some obvious noise.

When you are in that room with all the doors and windows closed, can you hear the traffic from the street? For example, can you hear the rumbling sound of truck engines? Can you hear or feel the vibration of the wheels moving over bumps in the street? If not, the you should be fine, and not need to float the floor. About the neighbors upstairs: What type of noise are they making?

a) don't float floors, build walls on current basement floor with sylomer pads underneath and have new ceiling hang over the new walls

That sounds like a possible approach, but I don't think you need the Sylomer pads. Just put the walls directly on the floor. Regarding the shape of your control room #1: I'd suggest that you move the position of that door in the left rear corner. That's the best position for bass trapping, so it's a shame to wast it on a door. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi Sofia. Welcome!

Thanks a lot! I'm so greatfull to this forum (and personally to John I think :wink: ) that I can consult with such experienced people. And I'm really excited that you guys keep it not just alive, but add new staff and answer same Qs for so many years!

Soundman2020 wrote:

Probably not necessary, unless you are getting direct impact noise through the building structure, or very low frequency noise from that road. When you are in that room with all the doors and windows closed, can you hear the traffic from the street? For example, can you hear the rumbling sound of truck engines? Can you hear or feel the vibration of the wheels moving over bumps in the street? If not, the you should be fine, and not need to float the floor.

Ok. Very good point. We don't have a door, so the first step would be to close the entrance and listen to the steet carefully.

Soundman2020 wrote:

About the neighbors upstairs: What type of noise are they making?

I can hear they walk and drop things on the floor :cry: . The building is old, so my ceiling/their floor is made of bricks (!) with thin concete layer above. And basically we need silence. Sexy whisper :cen: :P of an actress should not be interrupted by someone from above or chattering group of actors waiting in adjasent room. On the other hand I don't want to make neighdours scared when we record screams for a horror movie :twisted: :D . In case I don't hear the street, but can hear neighbours, do I need floating floors? Attached are two photos of the current state. Maybe some immediate thoughts?

In case I don't hear the street, but can hear neighbours, do I need floating floors?

I don't think you need to float the floor, no. It's very hard to do right, and very expensive. Just build a normal MSM room-in-a-room and you should be fine.

Attached are two photos of the current state. Maybe some immediate thoughts?

You don't seem to have much height in that room! The ceiling looks to be very low. You don't have enough height to float the floor, and even getting your new inner-leaf ceiling in there is not going to be easy: the final finish ceiling is going to be rather low. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

You don't seem to have much height in that room! The ceiling looks to be very low. You don't have enough height to float the floor, and even getting your new inner-leaf ceiling in there is not going to be easy: the final finish ceiling is going to be rather low. - Stuart -

Our ceiling now is 2.50 sm in the lowest point. Critical? May I ask. In case I don't float the floors, how I should build them? Concrete base - thin foam laeyer? - plywood 15 mm? - isolon? 10mm as damping layer - plywood ?? mm - timber floor. I'm not prepared for non floating floors design :?

You may want to correct the glass in the openings to account for the losses you getting there. I imagine, this is like a loud speaker, at a lower volume, but a loud speaker just the same. I think, if it were me, with nothing else to go on, fix the windows. Either install window plugs, or a thicker interior glass that has been decoupled from the concrete with as much attention to detail as possible. Chances are, you can hear things from upstairs as it spreads across the exterior wall and bleeds into your windows but I think strongly that this is a weak point...many weak points since you have many windows :).

Our ceiling now is 2.50 sm in the lowest point. Critical?

If that's what you have, then that's what you have! You just have to make the best of it, by using every bit of height you can. And with that low ceiling, you certainly don't have enough height to float your floor! It's not critical, no, but it would be nice to have more.

May I ask. In case I don't float the floors, how I should build them?

Install laminate floor. That's your best option, since it is thin, hard, reflective and looks good. Or if the concrete is in good shape, then just use plain concrete. Makes a great floor, acoustically. Perhaps stain it artistically, to make it look good. That will maximize your room height. - Stuart -

Thanks for answering! Seems that windows and no door are really weak points in current isolation. Will work on this thoroughly. I've got 2 (in fact more 8) ) questions related to the plan: 1) I intend to use wood studs and as layers of one leaf (+ Rockwool): a) gypsum plasterboard - 2 sheets b) gypsum fiber board - 1 sheet c) hydrobit (right word?) 3 kg/m2 between 2 sheets for demping - which layers? should I use it (highly recommended by most constructors here in Russia based on Ph.Newell's book) - Question about sequence of applying these layers (from stud to inside of the room) and if I really would better use hydrobit? 2) We currently use rather old genelecs, but don't want to change them. The model is the largest (tallest in the middle) at attached photo. They are big and not rectangular from any side but from the bottom. Shall I/ can I mount them in the wall?

a) gypsum plasterboard - 2 sheets b) gypsum fiber board - 1 sheet c) hydrobit (right word?) 3 kg/m2 between 2 sheets for demping - which layers? should I use it (highly recommended by most constructors here in Russia based on Ph.Newell's book)

I'm not sure what "hydrobit" is: Maybe you could post a link to some information about it? Maybe it is some type of roofing paper? In any event, building a leaf from multiple layers of different things is not generally advisable, unless there is slid laboratory research to show what it actually does. It is better to build in a way that is known to work and has been tested amply. The best way is therefore to simply put two layers of 5/8" (16mm) fire-rated drywall (gypsum board) on one side of the studs. If you need extra low-frequency isolation, then use Green Glue between the layers. Green Glue es specifically designed to be used as constrained layer damping in this application, has been tested both in acoustic laboratories and in numerous installations, and works. While sandwiching other things in between MIGHT work, you'll never know for sure. It might also make things WORSE. Unless there is published laboratory data to show exactly how "hydrobit" reacts in different types of walls and under different circumstances, then you have no way of knowing if it will do good things or bad things to your wall. So just go with 2 layers of ordinary 5/8" drywall on the studs. If you need more isolation, then use three layers of drywall, instead of two, or increase the gap behind the drywall. These are know to work, and there are equations that show exactly how they work. Regarding your speakers: I don't think you would be able to soffit mount those, due to the strange angels and multiple depths of the front faces. I expect that would cause diffraction issues if you tried to soffit-mount them. Maybe Eric can comment on that: he knows speakers pretty well. Also contact Genelec and ask them. They made the speakers, so they can tell you if it is possible to soffit-mount them (flush mount), and if so, how to do it. - Stuart -

Hydrobit is smth like this: http://www.budmax.pl/icopal-papa-podkla ... 472b168239 It comes from a book by Philip Newell http://www.amazon.com/Project-Studios-m ... 719&sr=1-3 which is very popular in Russia (due to available translation I think :) and fact that Philip designed couple of famouse studios here). Actually I read only two books - this one and Rod Gervais' book. I'd say that approach is a bit different and this confuses me :( Different layers idea also comes from Philip Newell's book.. but I don't insist :) it is right. And our gypsum sheets are just 12 mm or less, so I'd go with 3 sheets. Right? Green Glue is a super material. I've read a lot about it, but they don't sell it here in Russia. I wanted to order it from US, but post doesn't ship flameable liquids and the like :( So I'll need smth else I guess. My 4 year old son said yesterday that he loved rock (hard rock :D ) and would like to record some tracks when he would be older :lol: . I think we still have about 10 years to go, but.. :wink: Daughter is two, but I think she'll sing :)

Soundman2020 wrote:

Regarding your speakers: I don't think you would be able to soffit mount those, due to the strange angels and multiple depths of the front faces. I expect that would cause diffraction issues if you tried to soffit-mount them. Maybe Eric can comment on that: he knows speakers pretty well. Also contact Genelec and ask them. They made the speakers, so they can tell you if it is possible to soffit-mount them (flush mount), and if so, how to do it. - Stuart -

Thanks again! So I've got a question. How should I treat the front wall in case I leave dynamics standing free? Should it be not reflective/ solid? Does shape of the room remain the same? Is it sort of same situation as I have in terms of the speakers? http://www.johnlsayers.com/Pages/Soultrax.htm#top So they are placed close to the wall with bass traps behind?

I've got the answer for my previous post. Thank you, Stuart! Here comes the next one. Looking through this forum I see that people more often use approach when gypsum sheets are placed from inside of the room. Same all over Rod Gervais' book. Is it because it is easier or more effective (stupid question, but still I wonder)? Personally I like this one http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm with gypsum on the outer side of studs. Do you think in my particular case it is good to have 3 layers of gypsum like this? I think that if we complete construction and feel that insulation is not enough, we would add a leaf from in-side of the rooms and this will help. Or it will be this horrible 3 leaf situation between rooms? Does external brick wall caount as a leaf? WHAT IS BETTER? What is right? 2) In case I want to have some light from the windows(don't need to open), can I install ONE thick laminated glass in my new walls? 2 cm enough? Basically as described above I'll have 1-leaf walls between rooms and construction brick walls. Right? THANKS AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

As to your floor, if the concrete is in good condition I would consider staining it. That is what I plan on doing. If you can do something like this http://www.hjtexastile.net/portfolio_hj_stain_concrete why would you want to spend the money on wood? As to your speaker placement question. The link below is to a spreadsheet that will show how the boundaries will effect you speaker's sound. http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/BDBS.html The treatment that you use can deal with with the wall reflections but since most of the boundary effects are low frequency treatment won't help here.

Eric Best wrote:

As to your floor, if the concrete is in good condition I would consider staining it. That is what I plan on doing. If you can do something like this http://www.hjtexastile.net/portfolio_hj_stain_concrete why would you want to spend the money on wood?

This is absolutely stunning! Unfortunately it is better produced from "young" concrete - about 2 weeks and is over 100$ per sq.m. here :(

Eric Best wrote:

As to your speaker placement question. The link below is to a spreadsheet that will show how the boundaries will effect you speaker's sound. http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/BDBS.html The treatment that you use can deal with with the wall reflections but since most of the boundary effects are low frequency treatment won't help here.

Need to study this.. Thanks a lot!!

My concrete floor is 20 years old. I will work. Do more reading about it. That calculator takes a little while to figure out, play with it for a while.