I have a 10 X 12 shed in the backyard that I would like to turn into a mixing and mastering studio. I won't be doing any recording except for maybe occasionally bass going direct to a DAW. I have read through the recording manual, this http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1589&highlight=shed+studio, and through http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88275. I am not worried about sound proofing at all. My closest neighbor is a musician and doesn't care, and I don't think I'll be extremely loud anyway. I'm also in a quite neighborhood and don't expect any loud noises to bother me. I'm mainly worried about either sound absorption or allowing the sound to pass through so I have a good mixing environment.
That being said, my question is, with this scenario can I get away with just building out the existing wall as an inside out wall with slats, panel absorbers, etc.? Or, will I still need to do double walls? My budget is somewhere around $5,000 so I can build two walls if necessary but I would like the extra space if possible.
Backyard shed for mixing/mastering
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 16281.
maybe just ensure the moisture barriers you apply allow you to finish off the interior as a regular room using RC-1 on the walls and RC-2 on the ceiling (or if you can use isolation clips and hat channel) and at least a single layer of 5/8" type x drywall or 2 layers. then use super chunk absorption in the corners, 4" thick absorbers on your first reflection points - walls and ceiling, reflection points on your back wall, and then some scattered absorption around the room to balance.
Thanks for the help Glenn,
Just to be clear, you are saying use the R-1 as the insulation within the wall? You said "on the wall" so I want to be sure you're not suggesting on the outside of the sheet rock. And I'm guessing I should skip slat resonator walls altogether since there is only one wall, making it difficult to do an inside out wall?
Chris
A mixing room being one thing and a Mastering room being another, to attempt to install both into a shed..a shed which has not yet been described as of yet and has small volume, well, your going to want to rethink this project, especially if it has a wood floor on piers. But you do want to think about the over head ceiling. Far too man times folks get all wound up in walls and forget they have a ceiling that always creates acoustic leaks...about as bad as the doors and windows that we have not seen any information on yet, in respect to this build. "moisture barriers you apply allow you to finish off the interior as a regular room" This doesn't even matter at this point to you. It usually doesn't matter to near as many people as it gets said to, kind of like the "floating floor" factor but still it gets said pretty much with out much support. The shed would dictate if this was even a prerequisite. I would assume not, and I do not even know much about this shed you are wanting to convert/build. Except that I assume it is wood framed, on piers or at least has a wooden framed floor, is most likely a gable ended type, wood siding on the exterior with an untold amount of windows and a door that are all weak in their ability to contain sound. All things being equal, I would run with the massing up the exterior walls and insulation/slats....what you think is an insideout wall but is just you massing up the exterior and then making the interior look good. You can go the route of RC...but too little information has been given to really even discuss your next move, and RC is over rated n a shed with a wooden floor and weak doors/windows and overhead. Oh, you have a window unit for AC and this thing is wired already for power? Good luck,I'm mainly worried about either sound absorption or allowing the sound to pass through so I have a good mixing environment.
So let's say a mixing room then, since that is mostly what I will be doing in it. I'm not worried about sound leaking out at all. I've had band rehearsals in my garage at full throttle and it is just not an issue. The shed is already built, so it will be a conversion. The ceiling is 7 1/2 feet and there is a gable above that. There is one door and no windows. It already has a moisture barrier and it is wood framed. It will be wired for power with lights and power to the room on separate lines. It will have either a heat pump or a ductless air system. So, I'm not really worried about massing up the walls. When I mentioned sound absorption, I only meant in so much as keeping sound from bouncing around the room. I don't care if the sound escapes, so long as the room sounds balanced. I mentioned the slat wall because it sounded like a good way to achieve that but I wasn't sure if it was possible only using the exterior wall. Thanks for your reply, I appreciate your help. ChrisA mixing room being one thing and a Mastering room being another, to attempt to install both into a shed..a shed which has not yet been described as of yet and has small volume, well, your going to want to rethink this project, especially if it has a wood floor on piers. But you do want to think about the over head ceiling. Far too man times folks get all wound up in walls and forget they have a ceiling that always creates acoustic leaks...about as bad as the doors and windows that we have not seen any information on yet, in respect to this build. "moisture barriers you apply allow you to finish off the interior as a regular room" This doesn't even matter at this point to you. It usually doesn't matter to near as many people as it gets said to, kind of like the "floating floor" factor but still it gets said pretty much with out much support. The shed would dictate if this was even a prerequisite. I would assume not, and I do not even know much about this shed you are wanting to convert/build. Except that I assume it is wood framed, on piers or at least has a wooden framed floor, is most likely a gable ended type, wood siding on the exterior with an untold amount of windows and a door that are all weak in their ability to contain sound. All things being equal, I would run with the massing up the exterior walls and insulation/slats....what you think is an insideout wall but is just you massing up the exterior and then making the interior look good. You can go the route of RC...but too little information has been given to really even discuss your next move, and RC is over rated n a shed with a wooden floor and weak doors/windows and overhead. Oh, you have a window unit for AC and this thing is wired already for power? Good luck,
Ok - sound treatment then... I would leverage the peak (assuming I read that right) to put in lots of hanging broadband absorbers and scattered 4" absorbers around the room. For mix position the usual first reflection points - walls, ceiling , floor and any other direct reflection paths from behind. This way you are leaving a lot of air and wall to keep it lively but enough absorption to balance the room.
Yes, you did read that right and I was thinking that as well. Thanks again. ChrisI would leverage the peak (assuming I read that right) to put in lots of hanging broadband absorbers
"can I get away with just building out the existing wall as an inside out wall with slats, panel absorbers, etc.?"
Let us discuss the actual existing structure. I am thinking, you mentioned that you have a barrier, far fetched in a shed, but we move forward.
So. in my thinking you already have a two sided coupled wall assembly...am I getting close here? In order to get this to be a better unit, you have much work in front of you..,.one part of that will be to exclude RC...since it will be the same as going at this blind, oh sorry..we are already there:)
It is a shed. and it has a 7 foot tall ceiling...let us not mess this thing up before you get started.
In the event you have a vapor barrier....in a shed, we have to assume there is an interior layer. That interior layer has to be modified...you know this right?
I question the actual presence of a vapor barrier in a shed, and that you might have knowledge of this application, but...I didn't bring it up, I tried to shut it down:)
The shed is wrapped with this house wrap as a moisture barrier http://www.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ccmc/registry/pdf/13395_e.pdf. And yes, I'm aware that there is much work to do and that the interior layer needs to be modified. This will not be my first studio build, but my third. The first was in a garage and quite terrible. The second, was a commercial studio and I had help from a fairly well known producer here in Memphis named Paul Ebersold. It was perfect as far as isolation, the electrical and air being quiet, etc.. However it was only good and not great as far as acoustical treatment. Acoustical treatment is more of what I'm concerned with this time and I'm not really concerned with isolation, as it will not be an issue. This is for my own personal use and I don't have a fortune to spend on it like I did for the commercial project. It is a shed, it is my only option right now, nothing in my power will change that, it is all I have to work with, and I would like it to sound decent. I do have some experience with this but I'm not a master builder and realize there is always something new to learn. This was not thought up on a whim; I have been researching and planning for almost a year now. I asked the question mainly because I was trying to figure a way to make as much space on the inside as possible while still having good acoustic qualities. I was hoping other people's input might modify my plans a bit and make me some more space. It seems like you are hung up on containing or isolating the sound. I'm not that interested in that. I am aware that it's a shed and it will be near impossible and in my situation unnecessary. You don't have to convince me or be so combative about this fact because I'm already aware. The first question was exactly the question I wanted input on regarding construction of specifically the wall. I have not overlooked plans for the rest of the build, I just happen to have a question specifically about the interior wall. I've read through the recording manual, much of this forum, and several other resources. I know what the ideal build for studio walls would be. This is not it, it is a shed. ChrisLet us discuss the actual existing structure. I am thinking, you mentioned that you have a barrier, far fetched in a shed, but we move forward. It is a shed. and it has a 7 foot tall ceiling...let us not mess this thing up before you get started. In the event you have a vapor barrier....in a shed, we have to assume there is an interior layer. That interior layer has to be modified...you know this right? I question the actual presence of a vapor barrier in a shed, and that you might have knowledge of this application, but...I didn't bring it up, I tried to shut it down:)
can you provide detailed measurements of the shed? doors, windows, trusses, etc including (esp) height etc.
"The shed is wrapped with this house wrap as a moisture barrier"
See this is a common misconception. The exterior wrap is a drainage plane that provides protection in the exterior environment from air driven moisture.
A vapor barrier or more correctly referred to as a vapor diffuser retarder will be placed on the interior side of the build, if it is required. The theory is that vapor moves from the warm side to the cold side.
So my concern has nothing to do with isolation or even acoustics, it has to be with a proper building and how this is approached, which few can challenge me, if any, on how to go about this aspect...it is after all a structure that has nothing to do with acoustics.
Good luck,
Fair enough Brien. So you are saying that if I finish out the walls as if they were perimeter walls of a house, then I'm going to have problems with moisture? I didn't see this addressed in the other shed builds in this forum. So what is it that you're suggesting? Build as if it were a perimeter wall with the addition of another moisture wrap before sheet rock is hung?
According to this http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11810, a paint-like coating would be enough to diffuse vapor. I'm in Memphis, which is pretty hot and humid, and all the houses that I've seen built out here have the moisture wrap on the outside. Is there something that I'm missing?
given you live in a moist mostly warm area with 3 seasons, you have enough moisture and temperature fluctuation to cause a problem. as Brien points out, the exterior wrap protects the exterior, the interior needs it own wrap as dictated by the environment you are building in. best bet - buy some consulting time from a knowledgeable builder in your area (like Brien) who can explain in detail what you need to do. mold is a big issue and if you have the option to do it right...
Ok, I know a good builder here in my area that I will consult before I continue. Thanks for the advice Glenn and Brien.
What I am saying is this. IF this building has a framed wall with an actually Class 2 vapor barrier (poly) on the interior side of the framed wall AND it has sheetrock on this interior side AND you add more interior framed wall assemblies then you run a REAL risk of trapping the potential for condensation INBETWEEN the walls, the very same walls that have insulation in them. Remember, I did not bring up the vapor barrier....I just jumped in since I have a little experience in this area...well, a lot, but who is paying attention? But since isolation is not a concern for you, what ever you do will most likely be alright in terms of acoustic treatments. It only changes when you alter the structure, like your mention of doing an inside out wall, which would be fine as long as the mass of the interior wall mated up directly against the interior side of the existing exterior sheathed wall, no air cavity. Once you introduce any air space between the sheathing of the wall assemblies, then (depending on the whole wall interior/exterior assembly sheathing) you run the risk of an incorrectly place VDR, there again, if the wall assembly requires it.Fair enough Brien. So you are saying that if I finish out the walls as if they were perimeter walls of a house, then I'm going to have problems with moisture? I didn't see this addressed in the other shed builds in this forum. So what is it that you're suggesting? Build as if it were a perimeter wall with the addition of another moisture wrap before sheet rock is hung?
Ah, I see what you're saying. I will refrain from doing that then and I believe that answers my question. Thanks Brien. ChrisWhat I am saying is this. IF this building has a framed wall with an actually Class 2 vapor barrier (poly) on the interior side of the framed wall AND it has sheetrock on this interior side AND you add more interior framed wall assemblies then you run a REAL risk of trapping the potential for condensation INBETWEEN the walls, the very same walls that have insulation in them.