Simple, limited resources, thorough Basement Studio design!

Carefuly covered up hole in from wall of LR. That was a good move! :D

Accomplished Today HVAC Solution: -I have decided to patch up, carefully, the existing holes and ducting in both rooms and will re-route vents/returns via hallway to achieve proper isolation and design a more exact vent size. The box's will be hung outside of the space and free of contact to the inside structure. I ran all the low voltage audio cabling through he walls today and am finishing the second layer of drywall. Audio Cabling Design I have a 22 mic Ins., 6 1/4" jacks, and 6 HP jaks, and one RJ45 in the CR main panel - 16 mics, 4 ins, 4 HP, from wall, and small panel with with 17 - 20 mic ins., 1/4" 5-6, and HP 5 & 6 towards the middle of the room. You will see soon! This has been a very tough project for us and I hope this is very educational for those who want to build a proper recording space for the first time. Our construction hasn't been the best either, but, we are making it happen, right? I Think I have a really cool color design figured out. Next up to do -Finish drywall hanging!!! -We also have to spend a good day soon of sealing up air leaks in the outside shell with drywall and insulation. -Doors -HVAC Ducting and Silencing with isolation in mind when designing. The remaining part of this project should be in studio construction thread, but we are now back to design (luckily without too much issue) with HVAC in the middle of the construction phase! Fortunately, we can do so without demolition, maybe.

Finished Drywall and found specs for baffle box by Rod. Give thanks for the works he does! I have learned a lot from his book and online info. Taping n texturing will be done in about two days worth of work.

Finished drywall, tape mud and texture. For the inside main rooms that is. Still have to drywall some things but I just wanna feel done with most of it Addressing HVAC design and baffle box construction. Might soffit two air supplies in the back and width of room and duct out other side of wall. Or, install individual baffle box's outside of space in hallway. You shall see soon. to do: 1. Doors and Installed 2. HVAC completed 3. Paint 4. Floors 5. Wiring/electrical 6.Window 7. Acoustic Treatment Thanks to Rod, John, Space, Soundman, and Gulfo for the input and knowledge so far! I will post more interesting pics when good amount of progress has been done, soon!

I will post more interesting pics when good amount of progress has been done, soon!

You know what they say around here: "No pics means it didn't happen"! :) - Stuart -

You know what they say around here: "No pics means it didn't happen"! :)

Sounds good, but, shouldn't it be a two way street (of knowledge especially), or equal trade. I post pics and provide site with good informative and educational experience in a small home studio build and you guys respond with feedback, advice, and answer discussion questions. "Design is Foundation"

HVAC isn't my strong point, but I'd suggest that you put your silencers on the noisier side of the run, and don't try to bridge directly across a wall cavity. Rather, run your ducts in the ceiling space or other are where you have lots of clearance between leaves. Worst case: make the silencers slim enough to fit between studs in the cavity and mount them to the studs on some type of isolation mount. That would make them tall and skinny, but that isn't a problem as long as the air flow cross section is large enough along the entire length of the silencer, and you have a few baffles in there with duct liner all over the interior. That way you could have the intake through the drywall into the top of the silencer, for example, and the outlet at the bottom of your silencer, into the ducting. - Stuart -

HVAC isn't my strong point, but I'd suggest that you put your silencers on the noisier side of the run, and don't try to bridge directly across a wall :twisted: :twisted: cavity. Rather, run your ducts in the ceiling space or other are where you have lots of clearance between leaves. Worst case: make the silencers slim enough to fit between studs in the cavity and mount them to the studs on some type of isolation mount. That would make them tall and skinny, but that isn't a problem as long as the air flow cross section is large enough along the entire length of the silencer, and you have a few baffles in there with duct liner all ov , er the interior. That way you could have the intake through the drywall into the top of the silencer, for example, and the outlet at the bottom of your silencer, into the ducting. - Stuart -

Thanks! every piece of advice helps. I am know a little less "dumber" on HVAC and am now just still dumb. For me, It isn't the HVAC air flow concepts that are baffling, Just the baffles are baffling! HA HA :mrgreen: I guess this isn't exactly an HVAC issue more than just maintaining isolation with HVAC vent design. One has to have a lot of studio design experience to truly grasp sound isolation. I have now approached the most difficult part of designing a recording studio. Doors and HVAC! HVAC should have been long ago, but this is what happens when you design as you build.

We are waiting on Doors, HVAC Duct silencers, and will be painting, wire HV electrical, flooring, panel soldering all LV, then window last. Then acoustic testing, and applying treatment! This is not the end my only friend the end! :)

One idea we are playing with concerning HVAC: We have to seal up the ceiling in the hallway if you see the gap from the wall that was already built prior to studio construction. So, maybe we could build a soffit as Gulfo suggests and seal up the gap while installing ducting, framing, insulation, and two layers 5/8" over a frame, and insulated ducting and punch in were needed! Then the question I have is, would I need baffles at all, if air flow noise isn't going to be an issue??

Lionzeye wrote:

... Thanks to Rod, John, Space, Soundman, and Gulfo for the input and knowledge so far!

Sounds like a group hug :)

Sounds like a group hug :)

:yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: It's a group effort here!

A positive note on sound isolation so far. At the framing stage of construction we were too loud with hammering and stereo and we disturbed the peace a little. Now that the drywall is done in the main room within a room (and control room) are done, we can blast our work stereo near 100db and no complaints around the rest of the building. And we have no doors installed yet! :D Now All I have to worry about is outside noise coming in through the doors and HVAC as I have more holes going in the walls for HVAC. IMO, the independent ceiling is the best way to go for basements if you can get at least height of 8'. Ceiling assembly design: - Two layers 5/8" drywall paneled in between ceiling joists, backer rod and caulked (see pics, page 1) - R-19 in between joist - Independent framed ceiling, studs running in opposite direction, also to keep room within a room free of flanking paths (ask if u want info, sorry no pics, lost them) - R-19 - 2 layers of 5/8" drywall both layers only taped and mud More pics soon!

Still making progress. I have a topic with no new discussion in the construction thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16903 about HVAC considerations, or lack of them. :shock: Don't worry, we will have plenty fresh air! Here is some ideas on the live room acoustic design. Please give input and let me know if this seems o.k. so far. One thing I don't have in this sketch is the door into the room. I will post a more detailed design soon. rectangular rooms ???: Main reason was because rooms were already there and will be for more usable space other than a studio if we move studio out, and the rooms were built with the geometry of the building. Both live room and control room could be expanded in the future if we see it would be worth it. 1. We wanted to be able to easily find room modes based on simple geometry 2. Provide acoustic treatment according to the sound field test results with intentions on providing splayed treatment (framed 2x4 with r-19, or pressed rock-wool stacked behind) 3. Eventually apply wood slats (Sealed HHzR) I have posted my quick 10 minute sketch up of LR I will work on the control room next! I definitely designed the window way too big for the space, I know, but I will do my best to create a RFZ with soffit mounted near fields. Might have to build a portable panel absorber to roll in front of the window at mix-down. I will provide a sketch up soon of our treatment walls for the CR. another really late question to ask, but what the heck; :? Does this design attached create a three leaf system with cement block wall-about 8"space-Isolation wall-treatment wall? Basically treatment wall's count as a leaf? Am I stuck with doing "super chunks", and absorber panels?

OK! So I have some concrete dimensions and the layout of the rooms. There are some minor to serious issues I have to face with acoustically treating the control room. This is were I hope the professionals can come in a provide solutions to my problems that I face. before I get reamed out, PLEASE REMEMBER! The rooms I had to work with were already built, as well, the door locations are fixed and could not be moved do to the space we have available to use as we currently have another storage room which is occupied by landlord. We have simply added isolated walls to the rooms with 2 x 4 framing, Insul., and then two layers 5/8" and the window framing. * Our biggest mistake was making the window way to big to be able to soffit mount the monitors. If we can get the shared space cleared out, we could expand the control room another 8-9 feet on the width! That is of course If we don't get to build our million dollar studio from the ground up in the next few years! Current Design Problems The door in control room - This I had no choice in the design phase of room geometry 1.Door is in the first reflection zone 2. Door In the way if a front wall treatment assembly with soffit is built The window - o.k. my fault due to lack of design experience :cry: 1. too big! I am not sure what to do about the window???? Should I leave it, and place the monitors on desk (height = 38 3/4") at 60 degrees and "superchunk" corners or carefully re-construct the window to a smaller size??? I have asked many questions, but this is the most important concern as of now, as it is important we get a good solid translatable mix. So I am calling on the pros to see what we can come up with to solve this problem.

the treatments - like slat resonators - can act as 3rd leafs but they have a variety of absorption and diffusion properties which also negates a lot of the effect relative to an actual sealed cavity in a wall. you can use smaller slats set into a wall which is mostly absorptive so you have some life in the walls as well as avoiding a complete 3rd leaf. on the soffits vs not, conceptually you could cover up part of the window in the CR to add the soffits. in any event, attempt to keep the speakers on a common angle if possible (30, 45) etc but symmetry is critical so focus there. on hvac - once you have the air exchange isolated then consider the use of a plenum to expand the supply side to reduce air flow and a low noise diffuser. similarly as plenum on the return can also smoothly compress the air flow back into the ducts.

Gulfo we give thanks for your patronage, as we, and many others who will read this post continue to learn more everyday from experienced folks like you who take their precious time to help!

the treatments - like slat resonators - can act as 3rd leafs but they have a variety of absorption and diffusion properties which also negates a lot of the effect relative to an actual sealed cavity in a wall. you can use smaller slats set into a wall which is mostly absorptive so you have some life in the walls as well as avoiding a complete 3rd leaf.

This makes sense. To use smaller slats. Since the actual reflective surface area is reduced and allows for more absorption of sound energy and also a loose of energy through openings, before it has a chance to create resonate between surfaces. From what I understand (which is very little in the science of sound and materials) It is resonance build up between leafs that make a three leaf system not superior for isolation, right?

on the soffits vs not, conceptually you could cover up part of the window in the CR to add the soffits. in any event, attempt to keep the speakers on a common angle if possible (30, 45) etc but symmetry is critical so focus there.

You say "conceptually" you could cover up part of the window, but this is probably not "ideally" the best thing to do as far as acoustics are concerned? Is this a major problem for getting a decent sounding mix, in your eyes?

on hvac - once you have the air exchange isolated then consider the use of a plenum to expand the supply side to reduce air flow and a low noise diffuser. similarly as plenum on the return can also smoothly compress the air flow back into the ducts.

Clearly stated! You are very nice and humble Glenn, to not to just laugh and say those guys are idiots. Here is a good quote I heard the other day - "We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path." I know we have gone this far and it seems crazy to have made such a mistake with the window and HVAC to many, but honestly it was lack of knowledge and "thorough" design, as the title of the post claims. :P (you can change the name if you want, lol) We are only human and we learn by mistakes! So, thanks Again! And if we have fun, create good sounding music with some very positive musicians, and create music for our children to appreciate when we are gone or old, then our project studio is a success :!: :shot:

Wow I am facing some pretty tough challenges with the window too big, and the door in a bad place! Here is a quick sketch of front wall treatment and the speakers at 45 degree angle with the mix position at 38% of the distance back, from the front of the room. The angled treatments seen below, would be a slot resonator, but the door creates havoc in this design. Any Ideas :? Maybe I have to give up on soffit mount, place monitors at 45 degrees on mix console, super-chunk corners behind speakers and treat all first reflections with adsorption, including door. Beef up the back wall for broadband adsorption, especially for low end frequencies to help absorb my giant window's reflections. Then, test the room after treating first reflection points for modal activity and smooth out the rooms frequency response as much as possible with thick adsorption.

Looks fine to me! Attach the sidewall treatment to the door, so that it "opens" along with the door... You could reduce the speaker angle a bit, and/or move the speakers to the middle of the soffits (not offset to one side, as you have now). 38% is not written in stone! It's just a good starting point. If you end up at 35% or 41%, you won't be arrested by the Speaker Position Police! Not a big deal. Just stay away from bad places. like 25% and 50%, and you'll be fine. You could also make your soffits a bit bigger, and cover the edges of the window with them a bit more. Like Glenn said: no harm in that (except that you lose a bit of view through the window). Acoustically, it makes practically no difference at all. Dumb question: Can you move the door? - Stuart -

soundman2020 That is what I was thinking. It will require some care in craftsmanship, but I think feasible.

you won't be arrested by the Speaker Position Police!

LOL. none of that please! I did a quick revise (attached below) with your suggestion in making the soffits bigger to make sure I overstand. Is this what you mean when you say make the soffits bigger? What problems will I have to consider when attaching treatments to the doors?

Dumb question: Can you move the door?

Not a dumb question at all. Not as dumb as us to not re-consider the door location before we built the room (could have been left untold, but hey, we gotta admit our mistakes before we can learn). We technically have a limited space we have to use outside the CR, but I will have to check into that. The more I think about it, the more I am considering moving the door. I will post a sketch up of the space I have to work with outside of the CR asap.

Here is the hallway if there is any thoughts on that. Behind the 3.5' wall at the end of the hallway, encloses a storage area for some business inventory. I would have to see if we can tear down that wall and scoot the door back towards the room. That storage space is technically not available for us, but I can double check. I would have to tear down precious work and set us back maybe $1-2k, but would it be worth it?

Is this what you mean when you say make the soffits bigger?

That's pretty much it, yup! I'd also suggest that you might want to re-angle those a bit, and juggle the geometry until the edge of the soffit ends at the door line. Otherwise you won't be able to attached the treatment modules to the door. They need space to move into when the door is opened

What problems will I have to consider when attaching treatments to the doors?

Firstly, to make sure that it won't bang into things as you open / close the door! Plus: that it is firmly attached, that the hinges can handle the weight, that it doesn't affect the seals over time as the door sags, etc. Mostly mechanical issues, rather than acoustic ones. - Stuart -

Thanks for more crucial advice soundman2020!!!

That's pretty much it, yup! I'd also suggest that you might want to re-angle those a bit, and juggle the geometry until the edge of the soffit ends at the door line. Otherwise you won't be able to attached the treatment modules to the door. They need space to move into when the door is opened

That one definitely crossed my mind, that's why I asked the pros! I will modify that that.

Firstly, to make sure that it won't bang into things as you open / close the door! Plus: that it is firmly attached, that the hinges can handle the weight, that it doesn't affect the seals over time as the door sags, etc. Mostly mechanical issues, rather than acoustic ones.

Got it! I will definitely take some measurements and back to the drawing board. I have read a good deal on this forum about doors, so I had some knowledge of what to shoot for, but as far as the hinges and doors, I ordered and just received but, haven't picked up yet, 4 solid core (composite wood, not foam I read in the manuf.'s brochure) doors with 4 ball bearing HD hinges, and a decent set of weatherstripping for each one for a good price. The doors on the inside of the studio have no bore, and will maintain seal with an additional magnetic weatherstrip seal and jam set in to the existing jams. I have some minor patch work to fix from the previous person who built the outside door frame poorly (that wasn't our work, so we are off the hook on that one), so I want to look into also beefing up the current door frames or jams to support more weight. I have a good friend of family who installed doors for over 30 years to help install, so I will make him aware of the mechanical considerations with adding mass. +1000 soundman2020. You da man! I have to get rid of my omnirax and go for a custom desk (probably standard for any new studio space) because where the red is on the door is where it would hit the force 12 model. I think a small console or desk is the way for small rooms anyways. force 12 desk is too big! As we finish doors and HVAC, we need to order some GG and more electrical putty asap and finish electrical, ducting, cabling, and door seals. Even though elec. boxes they have been sealed with massive amounts of caulking (baker rod were space permitted), AST acoustical putty on the inside of the elec. boxes to seal those, and more caulking, then we will apply GG acoustic sealer on top of that. The Audio cabling holes were sealed up the same way, caulking, AST acoustical putty, and another layer with GG Ac. sealer. I have a couple pics in camera of that I will upload asap!

I did a little more research before I responded. I want to dbl check that I overstand

you might want to re-angle those a bit, and juggle the geometry until the edge of the soffit ends at the door line.

Like this? 1. I cam also make the soffit bigger as you recommend and cover up more of the window. But, conceptually I just want to verify I overstand your recommendation where the soffit will end or this? 2. I also came across another thread where he designed his control room with door in similar location http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16556&p=116890&hilit=and+measure#p116890, you (Stuart) haven't replied to his design layout on this particular drawing he did, but I thought I would check for my sake, and his if he syncs up with our thread here. I am interested in only the position of the speaker soffits and compare them to my drawing 1 and 2 above.

Can you upload your SKP somewhere, so I can sketch in an idea I had? :) - Stuart