Simple, limited resources, thorough Basement Studio design!

New and more info so, thought it would be good to start a new topic. Thanks for any help! :idea: Location: Cali USA Studio Use and Vision: private home productions, word of mouth (no public advert.),recording for CD commercial release, 6 piece band, clean pro sound, PT, Logic, 6 HP sends to LR, analog and digital components, only need to invest in construction for now. Transmission and Isolation: Underneath usual walking sounds from above, BUT, no one will be there at night, which is when I will most likely work; also they are flexible with some sound coming through, cars on nearby street and wreckers across the street (SPL meter will answer that question) and of course only daytime, Low Budget 5-10k so I have to sacrifice certain times, or I cannot achieve a decent place to record and cant go much longer without losing investor. No worries about any neighbors complaint from sounds. Current State of Space and planning: Landlord has had some work done as you can see. He just put up the drywall you see in PICS below! Now I have to tell him I have to rip it down for two leaf wall system? Ouch! Or leave it, save on money? of course, no doubt we will take down one side drywall on the wall separating LR and CR, and seal up and protect slight leaks then, Dimensions: The biggest concern dimensionally is the current parallel walls being square in CR and rectangle in LR. CR = 12'11" x 13'9" = 184 sq ft LR = 12'11" x 25'4" = 325 sq ft 1) Remove dry wall layer and cut out for window frame in current wall. you can see the wall to the left in this photo taken from LR Fig. 1 2) build new, second, isolated wall with the other window frame. Two leaf wall system. See same photo above, same wall. *Important little side note: will most likely try to isolate the LR from the CR or other way around, depending what is more economical and functional, and build frames on ND isolator system maybe. 3) Simple, yet effective/professional audio cabling and connections through wall (i.e. 16-24 channels from LR wall mounts to CR wall mount, or patch bay. undecided!) 4) Build other walls on the cement block sides (See photo below) with elec. outlets; Cement Wall > insulation > single frame > 2 layers gyp 5) can splice into the HVAC system with more than enough power to get a sufficient amount of AC and air. 6) Suspended Ceiling??? Landlord is currently having insulation put in on the ceiling. He is even putting soft insulation as well, soundproof fiberboard after that. Then I am left with what you see in PICS. I think not bad, very nice landlord and you cant have him. 7) sub floor, laminate floor (not possible for a brand new iso. system More notes: Outside the rooms on the other sides of the doors is more basement space with lounge are and office with landlord and a bunch of his belongings. He is not worried about loud sound, supports a studio 100%, just maybe concerned about dude upstairs, but even he is cool. I think the new insulation will help along with a couple layers of dry wall. I just wish I had time to stop him from installing the inside drywall layer. Maybe I can live without building isolated second wall and focus on sealing up the rooms as well, the rest of the basement space with insulation/mass. looking for good wall mount for channels, headphone jacks I think, and some TRS. Control Room Pics: Fig. 2 Live Room:[/b] Fig. 3 Incomplete and rough CAD design: Fig. 4 Fig. 5

overall a good design approach although the concerns on the squarish room is correct. what is that thing on the ceiling which looks like a laminated beam which is coming apart? so, if you can have him use isolation clips and hat channel on the ceiling instead of directly applying the drywall, you might get close to the isolation you could live with.

Thanks Glenn! Yes I think I can make something work with the space, I have seen some other designs around for more squarish spaces, which influenced this design of course. But any input on that subject would help. That beam thing is going to be removed. I don't even know what its purpose is, but it supports some of his stuff that, of course, also has to be removed. I think that is what you are taking about. It will be some work taking that down. I also decided that I will go to what ever lengths to re-route the ducting in all the rooms if at all possible. It has to go! How about Just cut it off at the CR wall and duct in. lol I wish! But I can figure it out, and I can of course have as much air as I need. He has a very large HVAC system there right now and he wants to plug some of those up for sure to save on power and give me some as well.

if you can have him use isolation clips and hat channel on the ceiling instead of directly applying the drywall, you might get close to the isolation you could live with.

Great point!!! That is a crucial thing I left out! I will make sure of that. That should be sufficient for my situation I think.

...OOHH Or you mean that more yellowish thin thing running under the ducting, is ROOFING panels stacked up, resting on the wood shelves. That is what all has to require some work to get out. We have to cut it out because it is so long. it goes almost the entire length of house. But the wood shelves are not as long they are smaller than the room.

ideally it would be nice to beef up under the existing floor before adding the ceiling but that may too much for the landlord. the ducting could be used but you will want to consider isolation on it.

Glenn, I already mentioned that to him but he thought it was too much. Yes, I am taking a few days and bringing in a CM pro to assist me on the HVAC design, I will take all options into consideration before I conclude how the ducting layout will be implemented; and definitely, with isolation as the main goal. I am still researching other posts to get ideas. Any good posts on designs similar to mine, particularly with a similar ducting/havc design??? Thanks for your time!!!

one more quick side note, I should be able to supply 1.5 tons of AC per hour between the CR and LR, but I will find out exactly for sure what ratings of system I have to work with soon. As far as the electrical system, the studio will have its own isolated panel supplying 240v and 120v.

I got the worse response from my step father, the CM pro i mentioned about, when I told him we were going to remove the drywall and re-use it as a second layer. He said it was impossible and to just rip it down. Wadaya think, or know for sure? He used MUD and few SCREWS!

worst case, you cannot re-use the drywall... you would still be investing heavily in 5/8" drywall anyways so it would be the cost of 1 additional layer which may be $750 in an overall $10's of thousands anyways... sweat equity vs. cash... on the beam - maybe separate the walls far enough so the beam sits between them and is therefore away from the new structure all together. wrap it in insulation to keep it damped. on the ducting, it you could run a soffit outside the space for the ducts and then punch in, that would be good, if not the baffles would go up into the ceiling between the joists.

I think If I set the frame far enough away from the beam and at the same time reach for a more ideal ratio on the front to back wall dimensions, therefore help with modal activity due to square dimensions; i would kill two birds with one stone. And as well, help with some separation of the two pieces of glass. sounds good to me, but maybe not. going down to today to work on more drywall and plan out the ducting situation. I will post more pics when more interesting progress happens. I also have found a very useful and informative sound and studio engineering/design book I was given by a friend in college. It was used at a very good music school and has some great info, especially on studio design and construction, with some great diagrams and pics!!! Similar to Gervais' book but plus and minus info.

We are definitely considering the idea, influenced mostly by budget, building a whole new ceiling frame with new joists and run heavily insulated ducting and punch in CR and LR. If this strikes someone as wrong let me know please! I think it will solve many expense issues with this build idea but get the job done and have AC without the costs with calling in a pro. I hope there is not too much typing and not enough pictures. I definitely haven't had the time with juggling family, job, etc. to improve the 3D model. I am going 12 hours a day so I can try to have this done in a timely manner, but still be thorough and complete. I am still sleeping on the exact room shape to address the square dimen. I will post pics with progress I hope this post will be educational for those who are reading and fallowing. I am very detailed in my thought process, but more PICS are better right? Thanks :D

"I am still sleeping on the exact room shape to address the square dimen. I will post pics with progress" Sleep time is over. It is a simple thing to address this, square is an incorrect acoustic shape for critical listening, so it has to be modified to some type of rectangle....or a splayed room. It really is as easy as picking up a hammer and busting rock off the existing walls...trust me, breaking things is what I do best :)

trust me, breaking things is what I do best :)

you wouldn't believe how well I tor down the drywall. I am a natural too! I messed up though, 6 pieces were salvaged :lol:

It is a simple thing to address this, square is an incorrect acoustic shape for critical listening, so it has to be modified to some type of rectangle....or a splayed room.

Next on my list! If I use a common ratio with 8' ceilings I get dimensions of 10.24 x 12.32 ; ration was 1:1.28:1.54 I've read several different things about small control rooms. One that stuck with me is that using a common ratio might not be beneficial at all when using 8' ceilings due to being so close to a square, also read in same post that your better off with using as much space as you can and use some thick bass traps. Too bad I couldn't keep the joists the way they are and get almost 9' (11.52 x 13.86; whoops to big but could find another ratio). I don't think that will be ok with landlord and tenant upstairs though. So, maybe the splayed walls are the better way to go. I think this is were the pros could step in and give some opinions and arguments! A huge question arises; can this room become a good critical listening environment at all? Here is a quick adjustment using splayed wall design in CR and LR. I could also splay the ceilings. The recommendation of 12% splayed is a constant, right? I painted the new additions to the design in RED to see what I changed. The sketch is rather crude so it will not represent the actual construction, just the face of the wall. Fig. 7

ration was 1:1.28:1.54

Sepmeyer 2. It is a good one.

using a common ratio might not be beneficial at all when using 8' ceilings due to being so close to a square,

Why would that be? What does an 8 foot ceiling have to do with it? Ratios either work, or they don't. Your does, with the dimensions you gave.

also read in same post that your better off with using as much space as you can and use some thick bass traps.

Bass traps do not destroy modes! The modal issues will still be there, perhaps muted a bit. But you can't make a square room sound good by putting bass traps in it.

Too bad I couldn't keep the joists the way they are and get almost 9'

You can if you go with RC, or RSIC plus hat channel, but that might not give you enough isolation. How much to you need, and how much to you have right now?

I don't think that will be ok with landlord and tenant upstairs though.

Unfortunately, "thinking" that something might or might not work in acoustics is generally the wrong approach. The best way of finding out is to MEASURE. Get real figures (decibels) for "How loud are you?" and "How quiet do you have to be?". With those in hand, you can then look at structures that will get you the level of isolation that you need, and based on that you can decide on things like walls, ratios, etc. Only THEN should you be thinking about treatment. Trying to go with a square room and thinking that you can treat it to get rid of the modes is not the way to go.

So, maybe the splayed walls are the better way to go.

Splayed walls do not eliminate modes either: they just move the modes around. All you accomplish by splaying your walls a lot is to make it really hard to calculate your modal response. You can only calculate it if your room is basically rectangular. All other shapes require really complex methods to predict modal behavior.

can this room become a good critical listening environment at all?

Not if it is square!

Here is a quick adjustment using splayed wall design in CR and LR

That doesn't look like splayed walls: it looks like splayed TREATMENT, which is something else entirely.

The recommendation of 12% splayed is a constant, right?

No. :) 12° on the ceiling and 6° on the walls is a starting point, not a fixed amount. You might need more. But in any case, splaying the walls of a square room won't necessarily do very much for your modal issues, except make them impossible to calculate with any tool available to the average home studio builder. Going back to your first post:

Important little side note: will most likely try to isolate the LR from the CR or other way around, depending what is more economical and functional,

Isolation is pretty much a two-way street! If you isolate the CR from the LR, then you have also just isolated the LR form the CR. If sound can't get out, it also can't get in, to more or less the same degree.

and build frames on ND isolator system maybe.

Not sure what that is. can you explain? But unless it fully decouple the frames from the floor (no flanking paths at all) then it wont work.

Landlord is currently having insulation put in on the ceiling. He is even putting soft insulation as well, soundproof fiberboard after that.

Unless he is doing all that correctly, with the correct materials and methods, then he is wasting his money and trashing your isolation... By the way, there is no such thing as "soundproof". That's a myth. Take a look at Brien's signature: he's absolutely right.

I think the new insulation will help along with a couple layers of dry wall.

Only if it is fully decoupled and correctly designed, with enough mass on each leaf and a big enough air gap, filled with the right kind of insulation... Acoustic isolation has to be designed based on the scientific principles of acoustics. The chances of your landlord getting it all right by pure luck are not good. Big question: in your SkethcUp model, you show one long area split into CR and LR with a wall: does that wall exist already, or are you going to build it? Next big question: How loud are you, and how quiet do you need to be? I already mentioned that above, but I'm repeating it, because it is BASIC. Until you do real tests with real sounds and a real sound level meter, and come up with real numbers, you cannot possibly know if anything at all that you are planning will work or not. It might be fine (unlikely), it might be overkill (wasting you money), or it might be insufficient (very likely). But you'll never know until you get yourself a meter and run some tests. I'd suggest that this should be your first priority: without real numbers, you can't advance at all with your design: Or rather, you can't advance intelligently! You can only advance "stupidly" :) - Stuart -

Thanks Stuart for input!

Big question: in your SkethcUp model, you show one long area split into CR and LR with a wall: does that wall exist already, or are you going to build it?

The wall already exists and I cannot take it down unfortunately. So I am stuck with these dimensions.

Get real figures (decibels) for "How loud are you?" and "How quiet do you have to be?".

I was supposed to get dome readings with a band last but they show up late every time, so I have to get them in there in the day soon. It would be ideal to try for an ambient noise level of no more than 25 db in the CR or shoot for a PNC of 15. The live room can have a little more, but my GUESS is that it is already at no more than 30 dB, but not the live room. but, I WILL have REAL measurements in the next day or two of both rooms' ambient noise level, no thinking, sleeping, or guessing! :) Is Fuzz Measure a sufficient enough program for my entire project or should I just buy a SPL meter for now? (since it is raining and my CM pro father does not want to work in the rain, I can buy more time in designing with tangible number values to determine and influence the design.) The engineering is were he lacks so It is my time to do the thinking!!!

Not sure what that is. can you explain? But unless it fully decouple the frames from the floor (no flanking paths at all) then it wont work.

Page 91 (Gervais). He even gives example calculations and design procedures on page 276. They are made by Mason Industries. Or what about using a vibration isolation board of some type underneath the framing. Or should I just stick with better isolator systems like ND or the common isolated base channel?

Page 91 (Gervais). He even gives example calculations and design procedures on page 276.

Which edition are you looking at? Page 91 in mine is a diagram on how to build a window, and page 276 is a discussion on fiberglass as a possible carcinogen! But if Rod recommends it, then I'm sure it'll work fine! - Stuart -

it was the 2nd Ed....?? I contacted Mason Industries to see costs and any recommendations. I will post when I hear back.

There is still progress!!!! :yahoo:

Slow Progress, but trying to make sure everything is accounted for. Pics soon!

I have taken some measurements with my internal computer mic using REW program. A ten minute test run inside of the Live room resulted a peak dB of reading of 57-60 db. I do not have to worry about sound leaving as I will be working mostly at night and the landlord also made it very clear to the tenant upstairs, who will be gone every day at 5pm and gone on weekends, that we will be running a recording studio, and he doesn't have any problems with sound coming through the ceiling to him. We have no neighbors otherwise, so basically sound leaving is NOT an issue at all. Regardless we will have band levels at around 100-120dB and mixing levels at common levels no louder than 85 dB. The one thing that we really got caught up on was the fact that the LR does not fall into an ideal room size ratio. We are basically stuck on the room ratio thing and are wondering if the dimensions for the LR 8' x 13' x 25', being close multiples of each other is a huge problem. Or could we just shorten the length one or two feet. But, this still doesn't fall into an ideal room ratio. Oh yes I forgot to mention that I am waiting on the measurement microphone EMC8000 to take more readings to confirm accuracy of first readings.

skip worrying on the LR ratios and work on keeping the volume of space then treating to balance the liveliness and frequency response. slats, polys, scattered absorption etc.

skip worrying on the LR ratios

Yup! Totally agree! Ratios aren't too important for live rooms: Volume is. Shape is. Non-symmetry is. Treatment is. But not ratios (or rather, unless your room is a cube or a sphere... :) ). - Stuart -

progress update: It has been a few months since a post on this project. So, there has been slow but sure progress. The only advice we didn't take: We decided to go with parallel walls also to maintain max volume and we will treat the symmetry in the future with angled slat resonators as Gulfo and others have suggested. We have been in the final stages of drywall hanging, applying mud, and tapping. SO MUCH DRYWALL aaaah! Being our first studio build, we are facing some design issues in the construction phase of our project with HVAC. We are tapping into an already existing system and are supplying more than enough conditioned air/heat into the LR and CR for our load and didn't create any new vents in the system, as we closed one vent elsewhere in the building for every new vent in the studio, with little added duct runs. The HVAC considerations were minimal, BUT we are making sure we have fresh air/heat moved in and out of the room and provide continuous fresh air exchanges to provide comfort and health. I am fully aware of all consequences (of using insulated flex duct as well) to this design approach and a professional will be called in only if there is not enough fresh air coming into rooms or system is strained or compromised. Here are some problems we are facing as our first studio build for you all to learn from us so you don't make the same mistake (and yes these mistakes are probably going to continue as long as we are human :| ) 1. As a lack of thorough understanding of how to maintain good sound isolation through hvac supplies and returns, the original design for duct work was not designed with proper isolation techniques in mind. 2. Not enough funds to complete angled slat resonators to treat parallel walls, therefore stuck with parallel walls until we can afford wood slats 3. Spent over three times our budget. Sorry I can't mention details on that as I am not the person providing finances. So, for your first time designing and pricing costs associated with a recording studio, multiply your final cost times THREE!

Fig. 8 2 layers 5/8" dw backer rod and caulked Fig. 9 Fig. 10 MOISTURE!? was dealt with by scrubbing the walls clean with a wire brush, and then a treated 2x was bolted to the floor parallel to the wall, caulked seems, then a very thick coat of dry lock was applied on the entire wall. In more affected areas, thick, thick coats were applied and even dumped into the are in between the wall and treated 2x barrier. We had one good rain and virtually no moisture came through. But, We will also apply a high quality moisture pad below the flooring. DELTA FL - VAPOR floor mat. Any inputs? Fig. 11 Framing The ceiling was independently framed 16" OC beams Frame is isolated from the floor using sound deadening fiberboard underneath base plate. Maybe not the best approach but certainly inexpensive and should have some valuable effect on vibrations. Also seen a book provided to sound engineering students at a very respected college show this method in a diagram. So this is exactly how I constructed the frame! Show me scientific proof if you think this is a bad approach as it is not recommended surprisingly by many! 2 5/8" dw inside soundroom - air - 1 1/2" dw to office/remaining basement area (this area will have a booth in the future) our prediction based off some tests show we might not need two layers of 5/8". We will test with live band before we finish the lounge side to save money! Fig. 12 Fig. 13 These are the most recent. Fig. 14 electrical box's are insulated with acoustic putty from ats acoustics