Basement Studio Build in Portland OR

Well after months of behind the scenes planning I am finally pleased to tell you all I am helping my good friend finally build his studio. Thanks to Glenn and Stuart for their help. The house is about 100 years old, three story's and about 6000 square feet. The current basement situation is: 1" -2" old slab -typical for that time period 7' 3" ceiling height We had gotten and estimate to dig out the entire basement and lower it one foot for $30k and $50k to lower two feet. Soooo, to save some money we decided to only dig out the needed space, 15'x x40' It will be dug out approximately 18" and a 4" new slab installed The structural engineer came by two weeks ago and told us that the foundation would need to be pinned only where we dig out. The plumber came by and scoped the main sewer line that is only one foot below grade and found that it makes a 6' drop right at the foundation line. So we will be able to lower that no problem. Budget open Inside out wall, double wall construction Ceiling; RSIC, hat channel, green glue and two layers of 5/8" sheet rock against upper floor ( structural engineer gave it a green light for load ) All walls and ceiling two layers of 5/8" sheet rock Concrete floors two steps down into studio Possibly sliding doors between rooms ( still undecided ) Solid core doors into LR and ISO with viewing portals ( double doors) HVAC - two HRVs with fresh air Star grounding Break room with sink, fridge and seating, plus a viewing window I am not the sketchup proffesional like some but I think I got the idea across. Unmoveable posts, stairs, House HVAC and storage area are indicated We are going for the least amount of wasted realestate Hence the inside out walls Any ideas or suggestions are much appreciated Peace Tom

"We had gotten and estimate to dig out the entire basement and lower it one foot for $30k and $50k to lower two feet. Soooo, to save some money we decided to only dig out the needed space, 15'x x40' It will be dug out approximately 18" and a 4" new slab installed" After going through all of that, if I didn't place a six inch slab on a sand base fill...

xSpace wrote:

"We had gotten and estimate to dig out the entire basement and lower it one foot for $30k and $50k to lower two feet. Soooo, to save some money we decided to only dig out the needed space, 15'x x40' It will be dug out approximately 18" and a 4" new slab installed" After going through all of that, if I didn't place a six inch slab on a sand base fill...

Hey Brien, Whats your thought there Definately can consider it but since its not a structural slab I don't see the need to throw money away. Foundation footings will be underpinned and the post footings were upgraded a few years back. We definately talked vapor barrior and rebar Let me know Peace Tom

Flip the CR so the narrow part is facing the inside wall. This will give you more room around the furnace entry into the live room. Are you planning on soffit mounting your speakers?

Hey Glenn, Thanks for chiming in As of right now we are planning on soffit mounting. He is still undecided on what monitors he will purchase. We decided on the position of the CR so as to acomodate a larger dual video monitor setup. (not blocking a window) This will also leave adequate space for producer audio monitors above the video monitors. However I am not quite sure how the assembly for producer audio monitors work. ie;decoupling in an overhead soffit arrangement Or is it not as important as the mix position monitors. Your wisdom and input is much appreciated 8) Thanks Peace Tom

What I was offering is that this concrete floor that a lot of effort/cash is being expended on should get either more attention than you have offered or more attention than you have given? If you are developing more than one room, than consider a construction joint between the two slabs. While I submitted a 6" placement above, I have no proof that this is going to get you down to a 20 or 10 Hz resonant frequency simply by depth alone. There is much talk about this...limestone with sand...sand only...but if nothing else a higher PSI at or above 3000 would be better than nothing. Another complication comes from the curing time in a basement since it is agreed upon that at least 27 days is the window...and keeping the concrete wet...that means lots of water...is the "cure" if you will. Temperature is as crucial as anything...and it is a given that basements are cold and this is a negative for the immediate curing window. If this were me...I would put some thought into it...I reckon you have,, but I just wanted to say it out loud:)

you might consider put the CR on the one end near storage and having the live room then isolation booth. this way you avoid that tight spot between the furnace and the pillar going into the live room. plus then the isolation room could be opened up into the live room when needed and the performers have a better view.

Hey Brien, Thanks for looking out for us. 8) We are doing a sodium silicate cure, NOT a blanket or full water cure. FYI. Moisture or Resin cure is 7 days and cure to cover with flooring/coatings is 28 days. A typical slab takes about one year to fully cure. The basement is heated and for a lack of a better term, there will be 18" high stem walls around the perimeter that will be connected to the new on grade slab. I kept trying to think of ways to isolate the slabs from room to room, but the stem wall posed a challenge. Plus, installing a control or thermal break made me worry about moisture migration since we are in a basement in the NW. ( its raining right now :shock: :lol: ) We will install waterstop at the stem wall floor junction and tool a joint every 10'. Prior to interior wall assembly, the tooled joints will be saw cut at 1 1/2" depth and filled with a polyurea to full depth at the 28 day cure cycle. It does still pose a problem down the road do to shrinkage over the next year. But we will have to keep an eye on them and as they open up and re-fill the saw cut as needed. I am confident that having a moisture barrier will negate most moisture problems but want to be over cautious on that front. Concrete guys always seem to poke a hole in the vapor barrier :roll: Keep em coming cause it keeps me thinking :D Peace Tom

gullfo wrote:

you might consider put the CR on the one end near storage and having the live room then isolation booth. this way you avoid that tight spot between the furnace and the pillar going into the live room. plus then the isolation room could be opened up into the live room when needed and the performers have a better view.

Hey Glenn, We have considered moving the ISO to the middle "and" the far end. The middle posed a problem with line of site to the LR from the CR And the end posed the problem that ( Don ) is a guitar player with many amps. How we ended up with the final layout was quick access to his amps and better isolation from the live room and ISO. He likes to play at 11 :lol: DOOR:There is 3'6" from the post to the overhead part of the furnace. On the floor there is almost 4' between the post and the furnace. Which should be plenty of room. Looks tighter in the drawing because I drew it :lol: Any thoughts on the overhead audio monitors? Would love your input there. Peace Tom

TomVan wrote:

We are doing a sodium silicate cure, NOT a blanket or full water cure. FYI. Moisture or Resin cure is 7 days and cure to cover with flooring/coatings is 28 days. A typical slab takes about one year to fully cure.

Actually, it is my understanding with much support that as long as a concrete slab is on this earth it is in a state of curing, that is why the older it is, the harder it is... I want you to read the pages on the following link: http://www.euclid-chemical.com/fileshar ... icates.pdf And if this idea was presented to you by the guys that are going to place the concrete, they should read it as well. There isn't much new in the world of curing, hydrating is key, climate is critical and 27 days is what I work with.

xSpace wrote:

TomVan wrote:

We are doing a sodium silicate cure, NOT a blanket or full water cure. FYI. Moisture or Resin cure is 7 days and cure to cover with flooring/coatings is 28 days. A typical slab takes about one year to fully cure.

Actually, it is my understanding with much support that as long as a concrete slab is on this earth it is in a state of curing, that is why the older it is, the harder it is... I want you to read the pages on the following link: http://www.euclid-chemical.com/fileshar ... icates.pdf And if this idea was presented to you by the guys that are going to place the concrete, they should read it as well. There isn't much new in the world of curing, hydrating is key, climate is critical and 27 days is what I work with.

Hey Brien, Its a battle of manufacturers. :lol: Its all how you manipulate the literature 8) and fight the competition Totally agree with you that slow hydration results in harder concrete. Plus lower water ratio and higher bag mix will get higher reults too. And absolutely agree the longer the concrete is here it is still curing TO SOME POINT. I think the Roman Coliseum is finished curing but the Grand Coulee is still workin on it :lol: Ashford formula has been around since the beginning of Sodium Silicates http://www.ashfordformula.de/dokumente/ ... tt_eng.pdf Euclid has been in the game for about 15 years as far as hardeners and densifiers. Diamond hard is their leading material in the industry right now, Mostly spec'd at Walmarts. :!: The chemical make up of all hardeners and densifiers have different results. Ashford formula has been used for about ten + years now as a curing agent. Different chemical makeup than Euclid All sodium silicate manufacturers have different capablities due to what they want to market. And they all say they are better than the rest. Even with independant lab testing...Go figure..The Polishing business is big right now, and Lithium hardeners are taking over. However they do not cure they only densify and harden the surface. This is my company and what I do, http://www.colonialservice.net I have been doing this for 18 years now and have learned alot about how to fix concrete. NOT pour it :D I leave that up to the cement masons. And if they screw it up I know how to fix it. But, I only know what I read and see first hand. End results are everything. Hope that helped clear that up :D Peace Tom

TomVan wrote:

Any thoughts on the overhead audio monitors?

you want to keep the angle of the monitors to 10° or less. if you're putting the monitors at the producer desk, then you could use stands etc similar to how you would do the monitors for the mix desk - cognizant of desk reflections, diffractions from mains, timing between the mains and the producer monitors, and reflections off the producer monitors back at the mix desk.

gullfo wrote:

TomVan wrote:

Any thoughts on the overhead audio monitors?

you want to keep the angle of the monitors to 10° or less. if you're putting the monitors at the producer desk, then you could use stands etc similar to how you would do the monitors for the mix desk - cognizant of desk reflections, diffractions from mains, timing between the mains and the producer monitors, and reflections off the producer monitors back at the mix desk.

Ok so I understand correctly; Angle to floor 10 degrees Angle to back of room ? 90 degrees? or? And as far timing between the two I wouldn't think they would be on unless someone was there to listen. During tracking and mixing I would think they should be turned off. As far as assembly? Build a box and line it with?? Something like these http://www.mrsmallsrecording.com/ Thanks Glenn Peace Tom

+/- 10° off ear level. if you're thinking a high mounted set of mains to target the back of the room, should be fairly easy to keep the angle small. same 60° triangle as mixer if possible (spreading the upper mains would enable this), worst case the angle is flatter to project further back. same soffit mounting tactics as normal. if you're putting them on stands by the producer desk, consider wrapping them with 2" absorber all around the back and sides (accommodating any venting or control access needed).

gullfo wrote:

+/- 10° off ear level. if you're thinking a high mounted set of mains to target the back of the room, should be fairly easy to keep the angle small. same 60° triangle as mixer if possible (spreading the upper mains would enable this), worst case the angle is flatter to project further back. same soffit mounting tactics as normal.

Sorry if I didn't explain it well :wink: I thought they were called producer speaks if they shot to the back of the room :( Cool, easy enough, Thanks Peace Tom

"Plus, installing a control or thermal break made me worry about moisture migration since we are in a basement in the NW" Tom, When this concrete is placed, it will have a construction/isolation joint around the entire perimeter of the new slab...correct? I mean, it has to have that expansion room which also breaks it free of the existing structure/flanking... So viewing that type of joint, when isolating slabs, it's just another one of those and is treated the same way. A VDR(vapor diffusion retarder) is a requirement under concrete in an enclosed environment, but is used on free standing carport slabs for the same reason, to retard the process of vapor/moisture penetration. I just think, with all this money thrown at this slab, if it is not made to at least be only part of the one room it is in, then why even go through all this for the sake of headroom, when one of your biggest advantages is staring you guys in the face? Maybe it is just me since I don't have 30K to throw at, well, anything :)

Hey Brien, Sorry didn't see this until today. No ones arguing that a vapor barrier is needed. And yes a "cold joint" will be around the perimeter of the new pour. Is that the isolation you were talking about? You kinda lost me. I drew up a couple pics of the concrete. Let me know Peace Tom

"I am confident that having a moisture barrier will negate most moisture problems but want to be over cautious on that front. Concrete guys always seem to poke a hole in the vapor barrier" A VDR did seem to come into question. A cold joint is a hard connection...an isolated joint is a complete separation of connection..a decoupling. Difference being that this isolated slab requires a footer to support what ever it will be supporting. If you are not in charge of this concrete placement then I am just messing up the flow with my input...but if you are, and if isolation is a goal and it seems like it surely must be...there are things that have to be considered...just like building a decoupled wall assembly...you have to assert that they should develop a decoupled concrete assembly.

Brien, Boy you're a tough nut to crack :lol: Vapor barrier or VDR as you so eloquently describe is a mute point. It is going in. :horse: :lol:

A VDR did seem to come into question.

No question here! only concern. :D its a non commercial studio its in a house and some day will need to be re-sold. The studio will probably need to torn out when that day happens By having large iso joints running at angles across the floor would be undesirable for most buyers. An isolation joint does pose a problem in a basemnet eviroment. Especially if it is covered by wall asemblies and not visible for future inspection. The house is very old and runs a high risk of water intrusion if those large joints fail. And they will at some point. Maybe not for another 100 years. :wink: The gain in isolation would be insignificant to the risk involved. Mold being the worst, hidden behind walls growing without knowing. I think "I" have only seen two or three studios on this site that poured isolated slabs. and they were on grade. My own studio is a mono pour and I have great isolation. :yahoo: Our biggest concern is sound going up into the living space. And yes we will have a GC for the pinning and concrete install. We hope to meet with him soon. Still waiting on the written report from the Strutural engineer. As soon as that happens I will let you know how it all went. The first bid was for the entire basement for $30k at one foot. Dont know how much for 2/5 yet. Peace Tom

"Boy you're a tough nut to crack " I do not even know how that applies...my concern is that there is over-site in this project that is disguised as a loss of interest in an attempt to sale a home. The mute point you suggest was brought up by you...not me. I just clarified what it is. A vapor barrier , class 1, is aluminum foil, everything else is a vapor retarder. A VDR (vapor diffuser retarder) is the more accurate description. I can appreciate what your fears are...and they seem to be that, but joints are joints...they would be nothing less than the control joints you have already suggested that will be placed...for whatever reason that might be, I do not know. I said it once, and I am not going to bother you or this thread again with my opinions...since I see the way it is going already. The relieved stress on the structure from developing an isolated slab configuration is worth more money to the total cost of the house as a selling aspect than one big monolithic slab that has no breaks other than this construction joint...a joint that only controls where the crack will happen...

WOW no conspiracy going on here. :cop: The owner and GC are reading along as this progresses and wonders what you are even talking about In this part of the country and most of the US its called a Vapor Barrier. If you want to call it a retarder please by all means. http://www.globalplasticsheeting.com/va ... -retarder/ A class one is "also" Polyethylene. We dont use foil as a concrete vapor barrier in this neck of the woods. Most vapor barriers are installed in the NW with 20+ mil Poly. Vapor Retarders are most common and are used to create a membrane barrier between the concrete and the ground to minimize the concrete's ability to "wick" moisture up through the concrete. Vapor Barriers are designed to eliminate ground moisture and generally are only used in areas with high ground water, poor ground percolation,

they would be nothing less than the control joints you have already suggested that will be placed...for whatever reason that might be, I do not know.

A control joint or construction joint happens when you pour a new to an old slab. You can dowel the two together for structural purposes if needed. The control joints "wont" be placed . They will just be there for the simple reason you have an existing slab and a new slab And yes the tooled joint are for shrinkage control to hopefully eliminate any cracking. Standard practice! And as far as isolated slabs go. There still needs to be a connection between the slabs. Of some sorts. Just to protect any water/vapor migration. How do you not make an impervious, non coupled, connection? Sharward did it like this . But he was street level. Peace Tom

"The owner and GC are reading along as this progresses and wonders what you are even talking about" Then we should have these more qualified persons speak...I understand this may be a new concept but it is not. The definition of what a vapor barrier is, by class, is already established...it is not a definition of what has always been done as handed down by the seniors before them. Frankly I am having a bit of a knee jerk trying to understand why you and I are continuing in this conversation since it is obvious that what ever you are going to do will be done....and it seems to be a bit of a levy on what is or is not a vapor barrier:) That is for you guys to understand...I tried to make it available... But back to the start...if you guys (that includes whoever is looking over Toms shoulders) do not break this slab from the existing structure perimeter and do not make an isolated joint from one room to the other...then you folks are just , well, what is the first syllable in contractor?

xSpace wrote:

"The owner and GC are reading along as this progresses and wonders what you are even talking about" Then we should have these more qualified persons speak...I understand this may be a new concept but it is not. The definition of what a vapor barrier is, by class, is already established...it is not a definition of what has always been done as handed down by the seniors before them. Frankly I am having a bit of a knee jerk trying to understand why you and I are continuing in this conversation since it is obvious that what ever you are going to do will be done....and it seems to be a bit of a levy on what is or is not a vapor barrier:) That is for you guys to understand...I tried to make it available... But back to the start...if you guys (that includes whoever is looking over Toms shoulders) do not break this slab from the existing structure perimeter and do not make an isolated joint from one room to the other...then you folks are just , well, what is the first syllable in contractor?

Insults dont get results dude. They only show intelligence. #1 You called for a VRD and what we need is a barrier. Read your own posts!?! and my response's #2 Recommend a proper isolated joint that will work in this enviroment. And a detail !!! #3 And what the owner wants. Not what you think he should have. #4 Show us some of your projects that you have isolated joints installed in a basement #5 a few people have asked you to post your studio or projects you have worked on!?? ie;qualified! I already showed you mine Peace Tom

Tom, I do see what Brien is getting at with the joints (although maybe I don't share his way of saying it ! :) ). Isolating your slabs from your walls / each other will make a difference, so if you can figure a way to do it, I'd say to go for it. Have you considered things like the compounds used in expansion joints? It's teh same kind of thing: all you want is a flexible waterproof compound. Here's a couple of things I found with a very quick google search, that might get you thinking: http://kantarubber.com/sealjoint.asp http://www.ehow.com/how_7389447_seal-ex ... crete.html http://www.doityourself.com/stry/making ... rete-slabs http://www.dannylipford.com/video/how-t ... -driveway/ http://inspectapedia.com/structure/SlabCracks8.htm http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete ... lling.html http://www.mmsystemscorp.com/ejp/index.html http://www.pavingexpert.com/concjnt1.htm http://www.concreteconstruction.net/Und ... tions.aspx I have NO idea if any of those will work for you, nor even if they are appropriate in the least! I just posted them to get you thinking that there might be a good way of doing this that your local code will allow, and your contractor agrees with. Also, looking at your diagram in "new wall and floor.jpg", you show that the new floor slab has that "L" shaped piece resting on it, that connects to the old edge. Would it not be better to have the new slab butting up against that "L" piece, from the side, rather then underneath? In other words, the slab would rest on the ground with nothing on top of it, and the ' 14" new wall' would also go down the ground, nest to the slab but not on top of it. The expansion joint gap would run all around the perimeter of the slab, filled with the waterproof / isolation compound. Wouldn't that be a better way of doing it? Food for thought! - Stuart -

Stuart, Nice to see you back. You have been away for quite some time. Hope all is well. The first and the last links are what I think are isolated joints/slabs. However like I posted before the owner does not want large joints in the floor for future reasons. And my overall concern is possible failure letting water or moisture in. The other links are basically what I already proposed. :) And they make a hard connectiion. But please correct me if I'm wrong in this thinking :oops: So isolating the slabs "from my understanding" you need a rubber gasket of sorts so the connection between the slabs are not a hard connection. Much like a bridge gasket. Or deck gasket. A joint, sawcut or construction joint will crack to the bottom of the slab as it cures due to shrinkage. Leaving a gap, maybe a 1/16" to 1/8" These joints will be routered and filled "just like your other links indicate" with a Polyurea. The perimeter cold joint/construction joint will also shrink and pull away from the existing slab. These will be routered and filled just like the ones in the middles of the slab. And these will be hard connections. Simply because the material is semi ridgid. Just enough flex for movement but hard enough to hold. To my knowledge and from all the specs and jobs I have ever seen, the waterstop goes on the footing and the wall is poured over it Here are a couple http://www.greenstreak.com/SubPacks/Swe ... _Guide.pdf http://www.masco.net/pdf/catalogs/formi ... chData.pdf I have re-drawn the floor wall junction again as the first one was a quicky and did not include the mono pour footing. Again, Hope all is well in your part of the world. And nice to see you back, 8) Peace Tom