New Drum Studio build, Australia

Hey everyone I've been reading these forums for a while now and I've already learnt so much. I've still got a few questions, if I may. First, some background. I'm in Brisbane, Australia and I'm building a studio in my backyard. At the moment it's still in the planning stage. I play drums and so far I've just been doing MIDI loops and things on Apple Logic, but I'm looking to start recording drums and in the near future, a whole band. So the number one priority for this room is it must have excellent isolation. I am reasonably loud (I think 100-110dB) but so far my neighbours haven't complained, even though it's pretty much as loud outside as it is inside with my current room setup. Even so, I'd like to be able to get home from university at 8pm and play drums without worrying about disturbing sleeping neighbours and whatnot. The room is NOT an existing construction, i.e. it will be built from scratch. I'd put in a picture but I haven't got one handy right now. To comply with council rules, I have a 10m by 4m space. One of the long walls will be connected to more rooms (also built from scratch, like a toilet and kitchen and living areas and stuff). The entrance door is 6 metres along this connected wall, and the connected wall is 7m long (so right up the end). The other three will likely be brick walls to match the existing house. So basically it's an extension of the current house. There won't be any windows so I'll need to sort out HVAC to get in some fresh air. Solid core door, of course. Basically at the moment I'm thinking a 7m by 4m by 2.4m space. Because I play drums all the time, I don't think I'll need a separate control and live room as I'll be hitting record, moving over to the drumkit and playing. Also, if I made a separate control room, it'll be an extra $10000 or so that I could spend on things like acoustic treatment and of course drum and recording stuff. If I'm not wrong, the brick wall will act as one leaf, so if I want a two-leaf construction, which I hear I will, then I'm thinking a stud wall with RC and two layers of plasterboard, one 10mm and one 13mm. I found this pdf by Gyprock, Australia's leading plasterboard manufacturer. http://www.gyprock.com.au/downloads/dow ... m_dddd.pdf So, questions. 1) Is a control room a necessity considering my situations? If I treat the main room well enough, and put the studio monitors in the right place, will that do for my purposes? I'll mostly be recording myself and friends, so this studio won't be up for hire/commercial use. 2) Are the dimensions okay, or should I change them? I can't go wider, but I can go longer/shorter and higher/lower. 3) Does that plan outlined in the PDF document seem like it will work? Should I be thinking about putting a layer of MLV in between the layers of plasterboard? Thanks to anyone who's read through my post, and I really appreciate any help and advice you can give me! I'll try and put up a diagram of the area when I can. Cheers Cel

Cel, You will need at least STC65 - STC70 in isolation. You will not need RC if you are building an isolated wall. In fact, in order to get STC70 or better you will need the equivalent mass of about 3 layers of 15.9mm, type 'X' gypsum board on each leaf of your wall system. I would recommend a minimum of 2 layers and an appropriate air gap (100mm...?) to get you close. 1.) A single room studio would suit your situation perfectly. ;) 2.) Best dimensions would be: Length = 597cm X Width = 393cm X Height = 335cm - This will give you the most even modal response within your width limitation. Room volume is a nice 78.6 cubic meters and you have modal support down to 28.8 Hz. 3.) You need much higher STL (sound transmission loss). MLV is very expensive for what it does. Use another layer of type X. Cheers, John

Your exterior room dimensions are OK but you have to consider the height should be tall enough to allow for HVAC ducting and for the presence of the framing for your interior room. 11 or 12 feet (3.35 or 3.65 meters) would get you in a better position as far as being able to maintain headroom. If you start the build short vertically from the beginning it only gets shorter :) "If I'm not wrong, the brick wall will act as one leaf, so if I want a two-leaf construction, which I hear I will, then I'm thinking a stud wall with RC and two layers of plasterboard, one 10mm and one 13mm. I found this pdf by Gyprock, Australia's leading plasterboard manufacturer. http://www.gyprock.com.au/downloads/dow ... m_dddd.pdf" What you first have to do is make a better visual or textual plan so we can have a reasonable chance at understanding where you are and to where you are going. Is this to be a concrete slab or raised wooden foundation? When you say brick do you mean single wythe, double wythe, or a wooden framed structure with brick installed as a facade? So you do want to aim at a two leaf but as the saying goes, everything matters. And the exterior of the structure has to be explained in order to make a safe move forward. The notion that dissimilar materials (one 10mm and one 13mm) refract and thereby reduce the energy of sound has been well documented by many. But the fact is when it comes to isolating rooms, mass is what you require, and it is often at the chagrin of many a poster to have to modify a concept so ingrained in Internet terminology often encountered mainly from marketing saturation, but it is to your benefit. 15mm fire rated sheetrock is better for most situations, it just is. The pdf file shows nothing helpful without first knowing what it is your are planing to build, what materials, etc.

If I'm not wrong, the brick wall will act as one leaf, so if I want a two-leaf construction, which I hear I will, then I'm thinking a stud wall with RC and two layers of plasterboard, one 10mm and one 13mm.

I'm agreeing with the other posts, and just clarifying the points already made: 1) Forget the RC. You don't need it. The purpose of RC is to decouple the drywall from one side of a single stud wall, which is not your case. If you build a separate stud frame, additional to your existing walls, then you have already decoupled your drywall, so RC is superfluous. Decoupling twice serves no useful purpose. 2) Mixing two different thicknesses of drywall does, in fact, provide a slight improvement in isolation, due to refraction and impedance mismatches between the layers. However, the effect is small compared to the benefits you get from simply adding more mass. Two layers of 16mm drywall will way outperform the 10+13mm approach. 3) 10mm and 13mm drywall is too thin for what you need to do. It does not isolate well down at the low end of the spectrum, since it is too flexible, has too high a resonant frequency, and too low a mass. What you saw in that pdf you linked to is perfectly fine for isolation in normal home and office situations: it will work for that. But a studio is a vastly different animal, and needs a vastly different approach. The sound levels are much higher, and the spectrum coverage is much broader, to start with, plus the isolation needs are very much different. Isolating conversation in the next room is just totally different from isolating a drum kit. But in order to help you with your design, you need to help us with specific details of what you have, such as photos and accurate SketchUp models. The more info you can provide, the better answers you will get. - Stuart -

Wow, thanks for the help here everyone. I'll try and be as detailed in my descriptions, but like I said, this is all preliminary planning and there is no real existing building. Pardon me if I use less than correct building terminology (I have read up on this subject but I'm still learning) and please correct me if needed. The building that will end up being constructed is a 7m by 4m space on the same height as the existing house for a bedroom and bathroom and a little kitchenette thing. At the end of this space (marked by the line on the drawing) is currently a 1m retaining wall leading to a higher grassed area. I'll try to get a photo when I have the time. The studio will be built on this area, so there'll be a few steps leading up to it from the lower half of the building. None of this has been built yet, so I'm still open to ideas. I have to submit plans to the council to get them approved before I start construction. Also, at this stage I'm going to hire in a building contractor, because I know a few good ones around the area. This is so I'm certain I'm not going to make a silly mistake, and I can be sure that it'll all be up to code. Then I don't have to worry about things like wiring.

jhbrandt wrote:

Best dimensions would be: Length = 597cm X Width = 393cm X Height = 335cm - This will give you the most even modal response within your width limitation. Room volume is a nice 78.6 cubic meters and you have modal support down to 28.8 Hz.

If I only have 6m in length, then I lose out on floor space. If I plan for (internal dimensions) of about 400cm by 700cm by 300cm high, will this still allow me acceptable modal characteristics in this space?

xSpace wrote:

Is this to be a concrete slab or raised wooden foundation? When you say brick do you mean single wythe, double wythe, or a wooden framed structure with brick installed as a facade?

It will be on a concrete slab, and when I say brick I mean a wooden frame with a brick veneer. So from what I've heard, I should forget the RC and the Soundchek drywall, and go with the fire-rated thicker stuff. Couple more questions, if I may: 4) In terms of the flooring, I've heard that hardwood floors offer the best acoustics. Would a timber laminate work just as well, if I use the appropriate sound-rated underlays? 5) With the wiring and lighting, I'm thinking I'd like something like LEDs or Halogens around the place, so I'll ask the electrician about that. I'm going to guess that it'll be better to have the lights *not* recessed into the ceiling/floor/wall, and that I'll have to caulk around the hole where the wire goes through. Also, should I be thinking about putting a multicore through the floor so I can run my drum mics into the mixer, which will probably go at the other end of the room? Thanks again! EDIT: Forgot my budget. Let's start with about AUS $35 000 including all the construction, and if that proves to be unreasonable then I'll see what else I can come up with.

Celereon wrote:

If I only have 6m in length, then I lose out on floor space. If I plan for (internal dimensions) of about 400cm by 700cm by 300cm high, will this still allow me acceptable modal characteristics in this space?

Those dimensions, exactly, are non-ideal and not recommended. It will have triple incidences beginning at 172Hz. You would be better off with the slightly smaller space and much less treatment. I checked with these dims: Length = 597cm X Width = 393cm X Height = 295cm. This would give you a volume of 69 cubic meters and would work for a one room studio (drums too). Modal support down to 29Hz.

Celereon wrote:

4) In terms of the flooring, I've heard that hardwood floors offer the best acoustics. Would a timber laminate work just as well, if I use the appropriate sound-rated underlays?

Flooring: Hard wood floors are very common in recording studios because many instruments require a hard reflective surface (floor) to sound 'right' to humans. For example: Piano, acoustic guitar, Cello, Double bass, and the list goes on. Instruments sound more pleasing with a reflective floor because this is how we are used to hearing them. BTW, laminate, hardwood and concrete all sound similar. TV/Movie studios usually have a painted concrete floor. Acoustically, carpet is a poor choice due to it's absorption peak in the upper mid-range and it's uselessness at other frequencies. But when required, a thick Persian style rug really does the trick for cutting floor reflections - either in the control room or tracking room/booth. It doesn't matter what kind of underlay you use for a laminate floor (sound-wise) as long as it does not squeak or crunch. 'sound rated' underlays are good for IIC or impact noise. (like stomping feet, etc)

Celereon wrote:

5) With the wiring and lighting, I'm thinking I'd like something like LEDs or Halogens around the place, so I'll ask the electrician about that. I'm going to guess that it'll be better to have the lights *not* recessed into the ceiling/floor/wall, and that I'll have to caulk around the hole where the wire goes through. Also, should I be thinking about putting a multicore through the floor so I can run my drum mics into the mixer, which will probably go at the other end of the room?

Yes, check into the LEDs. There are many beautiful things that you can do with them these days - and they will be all that you will need. - They get pretty bright. ;) The 'world' is phasing out incandescent lamps (halogen lamps are incandescent), so it might be wise to look at the LED solution for future sustainability.

Celereon wrote:

EDIT: Forgot my budget. Let's start with about AUS $35 000 including all the construction, and if that proves to be unreasonable then I'll see what else I can come up with.

Cel, That's probably a bit light - especially when it is including the construction cost. If you had that for materials, I'd say you might be close... (You will need to fabricate or buy all the acoustic treatment...) Cheers, John

if you can go down to 3m H x 3.9m W x 6.9m L (1:1.30:2.30) it will be a better ratio than 1:1.33:2.33... and in reality, if you're adding an inner wall to the existing structure, you will be added at least 150mm x2 walls + 25mm air for about 325mm reduction in depth (assuming 3m x 4m x 7m is your existing wall dimensions). if you go with John's recommendation, then consider that you could use that additional space for storage and/or some bass trapping.

Thanks for that help, John. With such a smaller room, will a drumkit still sound as good? I've heard that drums sound better in larger rooms, so by reducing the volume of the room, will they sound less natural? Also with the dimensions you recommended (Length = 597cm X Width = 393cm X Height = 295cm), if I gave that to a builder, how likely are they able to build to that level of accuracy anyway? That's pretty much what I thought about the flooring. Just completely out of curiosity, I've heard that a tiled floor is bad for a studio, but if a hard reflective surface is what's wanted, then what's wrong with tiles? Don't worry I'm not actually going to tile my studio, I don't want it to look like a bathroom :P !

gullfo wrote:

if you can go down to 3m H x 3.9m W x 6.9m L (1:1.30:2.30) it will be a better ratio than 1:1.33:2.33... and in reality, if you're adding an inner wall to the existing structure, you will be added at least 150mm x2 walls + 25mm air for about 325mm reduction in depth (assuming 3m x 4m x 7m is your existing wall dimensions). if you go with John's recommendation, then consider that you could use that additional space for storage and/or some bass trapping.

There isn't an existing structure, so I can go down to whatever I need to really. I've still got to get the builders out here to determine EXACTLY how much space I have to play with before the Council start getting mad at me :D . One last general question (for now haha, thanks for your patiences), with a room about this size (whether 6m or 7m long), how likely am I going to be able to fit a full band in (say guitar and bass amps)? I've got a digital piano that'll go up against a wall so that should be alright. Is it going to end up being really crammed and of course, will it sound acoustically cramped and muddy? Again, thanks so much.

depending on how many musicians you need at a time, you could probably have 5-6 players in the room comfortably. a few more if you don't mind being friendly.

I was surfing around on the 'net and I found this product: http://www.acoustica.com.au/pdf/QuietWave.pdf It seems like a different version of Green Glue, but without the Glue part. I'm not sure if it works well, or even if it's readily available (maybe someone Australian can help me out here, it's an Aussie product I believe), but it seems a lot cheaper than Green Glue. I read about $12/m^2 somewhere. This is as opposed to Green Glue, which is $300/carton here so I think that's about $18/m^2. Does this seem like a good product or just marketing hype? Cheers

It may well work, but there's no way to know since the manufacturer does not seem to have had his product tested by reputable independent acoustical laboratories: as far as I can see, there isn't any published test report on the product. And curiously enough, the two graphs that they do show both end at 100 Hz. totally leaving off the most important part of the spectrum: the entire bottom two octaves. In any event, a claim of 55 db TL for a fully coupled wall less than 6 inches thick and using only 13mm drywall, seems a little questionable. Like I say, maybe their product really DOES perform that well, but until they publish complete detailed reports from independent labs, like GG does, it really is no better than marketing hype. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Like I say, maybe their product really DOES perform that well, but until they publish complete detailed reports from independent labs, like GG does, it really is no better than marketing hype.

Interestingly, after 2 years, nothing has changed. Except maybe the price? Cheap Green Glue Australia Andre

Thanks guys, yeah that's what I've been told. The builder I'm going to go through says that he's worked with Green Glue before and that's what he recommends. I've got no problems with that. My only question is, I've read in the References section that it's good to stagger your seams in the drywall so that you know that there are no gaps. If you have Green Glue, does this still apply? I have this image of putting on the Green Glue BEFORE installing the drywall onto the studs. If you have the drywall sheets vertical on the inside layer and horizontal on the exposed layer as was recommended there, then would you have to install the Green Glue after the first layer, before putting the second layer up? Sorry for what may be a silly question. I'm still learning. Quick question: gullfo when you drew that model of the studio, you had the drumkit in the corner. Is this better acoustically, or would it be better having it face the length of the room so the sound develops fully? Thanks Cel PS I'm buying Rod's book soon so hopefully that'll answer most of my queries and you'll be seeing less of me ;)

Celereon wrote:

....My only question is, I've read in the References section that it's good to stagger your seams in the drywall so that you know that there are no gaps. If you have Green Glue, does this still apply? I have this image of putting on the Green Glue BEFORE installing the drywall onto the studs. If you have the drywall sheets vertical on the inside layer and horizontal on the exposed layer as was recommended there, then would you have to install the Green Glue after the first layer, before putting the second layer up?

Read the Green Glue instructions. You should overlap all seams. Use this guide here. http://www.onlineacoustics.com//index.php?page=green-glue

Celereon wrote:

PS I'm buying Rod's book soon so hopefully that'll answer most of my queries and you'll be seeing less of me ;)

Excellent choice. Cheers, John

Celereon - yes it's the aussie version of Green Glue - the guy won the New Inventors ep with it. It's been fully tested just like GG. the question is - do you need it? or Green glue? 2 x 16mm fyrechek will give you 60 - 65 db isolation which will be enough. Save your money and spend it on the nice lights John recommended.

Celereon wrote:

when you drew that model of the studio, you had the drumkit in the corner. Is this better acoustically, or would it be better having it face the length of the room so the sound develops fully?

the drumkit in the corner - it's a starting position - like any room, you'll move (instinctively or otherwise) instruments and amps around to get the best "live" mix, finding the spot where each instrument sounds right, and where everyone is comfortable working. if you make isolation platforms for the drums and amps which can be easily moved, then you will have the advantage of decoupling them from the floor and easily repositioned as needed.