Songwriter's Studio *UPDATED 10/28/10*

*UPDATE 2* Please see page 2, I have revised the floorplan and construction techniques. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *UPDATE* After a nightmare work trip and a bout with the flu, I have managed to take some photos of what I have so far. They are on page 2 of the thread. Please note that my father came down and (while I was in a flu-induced delerium) removed the inner sheetrock layers, clips, channel, as well as the outermost layer of sheetrock from the outside walls. The sheetrock is actually in great shape and can be reused (if not on my studio, elsewhere). I hope that now the rooms are in a state where they can easily be modified/constructed to maximize acoustic function, space and ergonomics. Also, please note that the walls are simply tacked together now, so they can be lowered if an inside-out wall would work for my space/needs. A link to the .skp file is at the bottom of the original post post (please advise if there are download problems for anyone). Thanks again for everyone's help/input/criticisms. I truly appreciate it. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------- *Original Post* Hello All, My name is Steve, and I have been reading all I can at this site and others for a month or so. Based on what I have learned, I have come up with some ideas for a home studio setup in my basement. Here are my details: What I do and want I am a recovering attorney who recently decided to get a real job, and, to my amazement, has had some success selling songs and recording/producing others' music. I live in Rye, NY and currently rent a pre-constructed live/control space in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. I hope to build a small space where I can record my own songs at home in as high a quality environment as possible, in addition to my main commercial space. I generally track everything myself for my own songs. I use V-drums rather than an acoustic kit, and I DI my bass, but do use a relatively loud guitar amp, acoustic guitar and sing, etc. I have the V-drums in a separate area, where I track onto a notebook and then transfer to my main workstation, so these are not a factor in the plans, below. Location/Environment I live in a fairly densely populated suburb of NYC. My nearest neighbors are 30ft away or so. I am planning on building my workspace in my basement, which is made of brick and is underground, except for the side that faces the nearest neighbor (of course), where there is a small Andersen casement window. I plan to work from here at least 2 days a week, and whenever the mood strikes me off-hours. I have two small and rather noisy kids who are home during the late AM/early afternoon with their nanny. Part of the basement, separated by a standard interior stud & sheetrock wall from the space I will be using, is a laundry room. My building skills My father was (he's retired) a contractor who restored antique homes. I learned from him while I was young and have quite a bit of experience in most aspects of home building, but no experience when it comes to acoustic construction, other than as described below. In addition, my father has most generously offered his skills in the construction of the space. What I have so far (Please see first image, below) Before I discovered this amazing forum, I built what I thought could be a control room and small amp closet/vocal booth in the space I have available. The control room space is a rectangle that is 7' high x 9.8' wide x 13.3' long. The purpose of these dimensions were to fit into the space I have and to try and get a Louden 1 ratio, or close to it. I now know that the philosophy of some forum members eschews room modes, but the room is already built, and I hope the dimensions are OK. The Amp Closet/Vocal Booth is a trapezoidal space built to no particular size (height is the same 7', dictated by ceiling height), but aimed at maximizing the space available (please see first image, below). Both rooms are floated on their own independent platforms framed of 2x4s on neoprene pads, with foam board insulation between the joists (I live in a flood area, and though the basement is waterproofed, I decided to use a non-absorptive form of insulation just in case). The deck consists of two layers of tongue and groove wafer board with 1/8" mass loaded vinyl in between, with laminate flooring. The walls of both rooms are 2x4 double-leaf with 3.5" insulation (Ultra Touch) between the joists, two layers of 5/8" gypsum on inside leaf mounted on iso-clips/HAT channel with Green Glue between sheets and acoustic caulk around perimeter/in any gaps, plus a layer of 1.2" homosote and 1/2" gypsum on the outer leaf, which is also GG'd & caulked. The ceiling is a flat, 7' 2x4 frame ceiling right now, but has not been insulated sheetrocked, etc., so there is some wiggle room there. Luckily, there was an HVAC duct and electrical taps in the space I am using, so I already have an HVAC duct and wires into the room through a conduit with as little damage to the leaves as possible (any holes insulated/puttied and caulked). My audio wiring is also in an unattached conduit between the rooms with as little damage to the leaves as possible. This was done by a licensed pro with me there, so code is met. What I would like to build (Please see the second image, below, and the linked sketchup file) I am hoping to build interior false walls in the control room to create soffit mounted speakers, slot resonator walls and a hanger bass trap in back. Despite the fact that this design would leave me with less overall space than applying foam panels, I would prefer this setup for a couple of reasons. One, it looks and "feels" nice, and that is very important for me creatively. Two, I think using the design ideas I have picked up on this forum and John's tutorials would create a better sounding performance space for acoustic guitar and other instruments that I would track in the control room, as opposed to a foam dampened room, which I have tried and not particularly liked. Third, and most importantly, in the end, based on what I think I know from reading on this site, and elsewhere, I believe this design would sound good and perform the function of a critical listening room fairly well. However, I defer to the MUCH more experienced opinions of forum members in this regard, and am very willing to alter my plans based on sound advice. I honestly am not sure what to do with the amp closet. My initial thoughts were to use a lot of foam and not worry too much, as I close mic amps anyway. However, I have been playing around more with using distant condenser mikes and close-up Royer ribbons, which seem to pick of the room more, so any suggestionsfor this very small space would be great. Budget I would like to keep it under US$10K, not including what I have already done. Anyway, here are the images and a link to a sketchup file (http://idisk.mac.com/s.kilroy//Public/SWStudio.skp). Please NB - I have never used Sketchup, and am really quite bad at it. Please assume that my carpentry will not be as sloppy as the plan would indicate. I greatly appreciate your input, including door and ceiling suggestions. Thanks. Steve K.

welcome! overall the design looks like it is heading the right direction. i've attached an example room which shows the hanger traps and slot resonators in a better configuration - open up behind the baffles to make room for the hangers. seal the air cavity behind the side slats. on the ceiling, you should use some isolation mounts and hat channel to keep the ceiling decoupled from the floor joists, or if you're putting in a inner ceiling then you don't need the isolation mounts.

Wow. Fast reply! Thanks for the diagram. I will take a look and integrate.

Hi Steve, and welcome! Great first post, too! It's nice when a newcomer reads the rules and follows them! :) One comment in your description caught my attention:

Both rooms are floated on their own independent platforms framed of 2x4s on neoprene pads, with foam board insulation between the joists (I live in a flood area, and though the basement is waterproofed, I decided to use a non-absorptive form of insulation just in case). The deck consists of two layers of tongue and groove wafer board with 1/8" mass loaded vinyl in between, with laminate flooring.

To me, that sounds like you have potential problems there. My bet is that those floors are not actually floating at all, and are most likely acting like large resonant cavities, that could cause you problems. They are also eating up precious inches of room height. Is there any chance they could come out? Are the walls resting on top of those floors, or are the standalone structures? I know you did that before you came here, but you might want to read through this thread to get an idea of what floating a floor is all about: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173 From what you say, you don't seem to have anywhere near enough mass on them, and didn't do the math to ensure that they are in fact floating. And you probably don't need them anyway, from an acoustic point of view.

The walls of both rooms are 2x4 double-leaf with 3.5" insulation (Ultra Touch) between the joists, two layers of 5/8" gypsum on inside leaf mounted on iso-clips/HAT channel

That sounds like it might be a bit of overkill! If you have separate stud frams for each leaf (which seems to be what you are saying), then you don't also need clips and hat channel. The purpose of clips and hat channel is to isolate the leaf, but if the leaf is on its own stud frame then it is already isolated: isolating it again won't accomplish much. But from what you said, I understand that these walls are already built, so there's no need to undo that! I'm just commenting, FWIW...

The ceiling is a flat, 7' 2x4 frame ceiling right now, but has not been insulated sheetrocked, etc., so there is some wiggle room there.

Is that ceiling resting ONLY on the inner leaf walls? No mechanical connections to the outer leaf at all? Not even a single nail bridging the gap? If so, then you are in good shape. If not, then now is the time to fix that. Have you considered building the ceiling inside-out? It will gain you a few more precious inches of height. Your intention of doing speaker soffits is an excellent idea. It will improve your room greatly. - Stuart -

Thanks, Stuart. Really appreciate the input. With regard to the floor, you are right, I just put it on pads, without doing the math. In terms of mass in the floor, would using rockwool as insulation help matters? Basically the decks were built due to my concern is the water issue. I did read articles at studiotips.com about whether you need to float a floor or not, and have since read the link you posted, but I was/am worried about water getting in through the waterproofing that was done (however unlikely that may be). In fact, I had wanted to just build right onto the slab, but pretty much everyone who has lived around me for a while said that I would be inviting a half inch to inch of water into my studio if the worst happened. That is why the decks and the use of the regular foam board. If rockwool would help, I can use that. In fact, my father had the idea of making the cavity accessible with relative ease to switch out the foam board if it got wet. The rockwool might get a bit of moisture down the road, but I can live with changing that out if it would improve the sound of my space. With respect to the walls, I think my description was misleading. The outer walls are single 2x4 walls with the clips/2 layers of gypsum on the inside leaf, and a layer of homosote (which I happened to have from another project) and a layer of gypsum on the outside leaf. Sorry about the confusion, and I hope this is not overkill. Since there is only one 2x4 wall, the ceiling joists are attached to that wall. I left a gap on the top of the walls, and when I finish the ceiling, I was going to put it on clips and use 2 layers of gypsum, and caulk the gap in the perimieter of where the walls and ceiling meet. However, as I noted above, the ceiling is not finished, and there is room to change. I have been reading john's tutorials on the inside out walls, and am intrigued. I may give them a shot. Again, thanks so much for your time and input. Steve

gullfo wrote:

welcome! overall the design looks like it is heading the right direction. i've attached an example room which shows the hanger traps and slot resonators in a better configuration - open up behind the baffles to make room for the hangers. seal the air cavity behind the side slats. on the ceiling, you should use some isolation mounts and hat channel to keep the ceiling decoupled from the floor joists, or if you're putting in a inner ceiling then you don't need the isolation mounts.

I really like the ideas here with the hanger and slot resonator placement, especially how the door is in between on one wall . I am trying to figure out how to incorporate that door idea. As you can see, my options are limited. Hmmm...

"With respect to the walls, I think my description was misleading. The outer walls are single 2x4 walls with the clips/2 layers of gypsum on the inside leaf, and a layer of homosote (which I happened to have from another project) and a layer of gypsum on the outside leaf. Sorry about the confusion, and I hope this is not overkill." The outer walls/first acoustical mass leaf is the actual basement, if your description above is close to what you have done...

xSpace wrote:

"With respect to the walls, I think my description was misleading. The outer walls are single 2x4 walls with the clips/2 layers of gypsum on the inside leaf, and a layer of homosote (which I happened to have from another project) and a layer of gypsum on the outside leaf. Sorry about the confusion, and I hope this is not overkill." The outer walls/first acoustical mass leaf is the actual basement, if your description above is close to what you have done...

Ah, I see. Thanks for your reply. Yes, what I describe above is accurate, I never thought to consider that the brick of the basement was a leaf. However, I do not have two separate stud walls around the rooms, as Stuart thought. That is where my description was misleading, I believe. So, I guess it's a moot point, as it's built, but is the use of clips still overkill? Would be good to know for future reference.

Yes, the entire wall assembly is not only over kill but with a three leaf that you have existing (basement wall=1st leaf || then sheetrock on outside of framing=2nd leaf || and clips-sheetrock on inside of framing=3rd leaf) reduces the low end of the assembly due to multiple hard air spaces.

xSpace wrote:

Yes, the entire wall assembly is not only over kill but with a three leaf that you have existing (basement wall=1st leaf || then sheetrock on outside of framing=2nd leaf || and clips-sheetrock on inside of framing=3rd leaf) reduces the low end of the assembly due to multiple hard air spaces.

Wow. I had no idea. This is very interesting. I knew it may have been too much in the way of isolation, but did not know it could kill my low end. It seems like it may be worth it to reconsider, and remove some of the layers I have put up. This is why I was so happy to find this forum. A lot of acoustics, is, frankly counter-intuitive to me, and I wish I had found this place a few months ago. Anyway, time to think. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can alleviate the "overkill" phenomenon I have going on without ripping the whole thing down (remove outer layer of homosote/sheetrock?), I am all ears. Thanks again, everyone.

Pictures...we need real pictures to make certain that we all know what you are up against here before someone recommends to start removing or installing any more...it's easier than speculation ;) Even cell phone pics will work @ this point, something anything.

xSpace wrote:

Pictures...we need real pictures to make certain that we all know what you are up against here before someone recommends to start removing or installing any more...it's easier than speculation ;) Even cell phone pics will work @ this point, something anything.

+1 Andre

OK. Will take some tonight and post. Think I may even have a real camera somewhere. Thanks again. Steve

Wow. I had no idea. This is very interesting. I knew it may have been too much in the way of isolation, but did not know it could kill my low end.

Yup. Classic three-leaf, and welcome to the totally non-intuitive world of acoustics! Whoever would have thought that putting MORE layers inside a wall would REDUCE the isolation, but it does.

A lot of acoustics, is, frankly counter-intuitive to me,

:lol: :D :shock: :!: Yup! There are several rather long explanations as to why that is, spread around over this forum. You can probably find them if you are interested in understanding the issues. The solution, however, is simply but sad: take off the offending layers!

(remove outer layer of homosote/sheetrock?),

Can you get to it easily? Which layer you take off depends on what you can get to easily, and also how it is built. So those photos sure would help! Especially if you took some photos while construction was going on, so we can see how it was actually built, not just how it ended up. Those would be very useful. If you don't have any "work-in-progress" photos, then you could do a quick diagram in SketchUp, to show how you built those walls, and the floor. Your comments about the floor and the moisture are rather scary! Surely there must be some way of dealing with that? Maybe Brien can suggest something. But I sure wouldn't want to have a studio built on top of something that could get soaking wet every now and then! Humidity and musical instruments do not go well together. Humidity and pro equipment do not go well together. Humidity and some types of microphone do not go well together. Not to mention things like mold and rot creeping along in invisible places under your floor. Is there no other solution? - Stuart -

Thanks, Stuart. I just found out last night I am going out of town until Friday (leaving now for airport, ugh), so I should have some photos by the weekend. In terms of accessibility, the inner leaf (double sheetrock on clips) would most definitely be easier, as there is only 4 inches of room between two of the stud walls and the brick of the basement. With that removed, the outer leaf could probably be removed from the inside (start from small piece you can reach from corner and work from inside thereafter). Spoke with my dad, and he is willing to come help take down inner walls. Thinks we can salvage the sheetrock (or some of it), as it isn't taped up yet and the caulk should come off fairly easily. Worried about the Green GLue, but we'll see, if/when it comes to that. In any event, would rather lose some money on sheetrock than build a crappy sounding room. Again, will post some photos this weekend. Thanks again for everything.

With that removed, the "outer" leaf could probably be removed from the inside (start from small piece you can reach from corner and work from inside thereafter)

You might not need to do that... It might be possible to leave the outer leaf where it is, and just beef it up in-place, leaving you with inside-out walls. But we'll get a better idea, once those photos and the SkethUp are posted! Two more questions: 1) How big is the gap between that "outer" leaf (which is actually your middle leaf... :) ) and the REAL outer leaf? 2) Did you put insulation in that gap? (the gap between what you are calling your "outer" leaf but which is really your middle leaf), adn the real outer leaf)? Or is it just empty air? - Stuart -

Here are the pics of what I have right now. Bit of a mess due to the recent strip-down. If anyone wants more shots/close-ups, please let me know. Thanks! --------------------------- Looking down the basement stairs. The control room is on the right, the amp closet of the left. Looking toward the front of the control room from the doorway at bottom of stairs. Note that the light coming in is due to the removal of sheetrock, etc (see update in OP. There will be a a water-tight concerblock wall between the control room and the carriage doors on the outside after the studio is done. Looking towards the back of the control room. The control room ceiling (same in amp closet). The second pic shows how close the top of the ceiling is to the existing basement ceiling (about 1.5"). The space between the right side of the control room and the existing walls, with HVAC ducts above (one runs into the control room off of a T, pictured in second photo. These are the audio wiring (lower/bigger) and electrical (small, higher) conduits running down the left side of the control room. The plug you see is just an extension cord for my power tools, and will be removed. You can also see the casement window that faces the above ground side of the basement towards the neighbor. The next 2 photos show the conduits coming into the control room (same for amp closet) Shots of the carriage doors (again, a cinderblock wall will be built between these and the front of the control room) and the distance to my nearest neighbor.

Hi. I was just wondering if anyone had some thoughts on this (NOT nagging, I realize how busy people are and that they contribute to this site gratis)? I am probably going to have the help I need to sheetrock either this weekend or next, so it would be great to have some input before that. Thanks, and you insight is greatly appreciated. I would particularly like to know whether people think an inside out wall structure would work here, or if an inside clip system would be better. Thanks again! Steve

looking at the exterior walls, they seem to be drywalled already. with the addition of 2x layers of drywall inside the studio, you'll have a triple leaf wall structure (if we assume the homasote is minimal in this scheme). that said, it may be the large air gap between the interior and exterior walls could mitigate some of that. what floor plan did you finally opt for?

Thanks! Yes, the exterior drywall is just a layer of homosote. It was left on to keep in insulation in place and, as the walls/ceiling are really just tacked together, to provide some stability until I settle on a plan. What do people think of adding another layer of drywall (sheetrock) to the outside, thus creating an inside-out wall to save space? I think that this would be easy to do, and wouldn't it alleviate the triple-leaf effect? As to the floor plan, I was thinking about utilizing the structure that you sent me earlier in the thread, with the resonators/traps not taking up as much space. However, I was waiting to see what people thought about the outside structure before I considered resonators/traps, etc. Thanks again for your reply. Steve

That's why we like pictures...you called this a basement early on and it is far from being a basement:0

What do people think of adding another layer of drywall (sheetrock) to the outside, thus creating an inside-out wall to save space? I think that this would be easy to do, and wouldn't it alleviate the triple-leaf effect?

It would still be three-leaf, but if you put enough mass on it you can probably compensate. However, you'll need to provide accurate details of how the original outer wall is built (what each layer is, how thick it is, etc.), and an accurate measurement of the gap between that wall and the "homasote" wall that you have right now, in order to figure out your MSM resonance (theoretically) and your isolation (theoretically). How much isolation do you need, in terms of decibels? How loud are you? That window is also a concern: Can you seal that up? - Stuart -

OK. Thanks for all of this. I will get some precise measurements and post them. Am out of town on a job now. Sterve

Soundman2020 wrote:

What do people think of adding another layer of drywall (sheetrock) to the outside, thus creating an inside-out wall to save space? I think that this would be easy to do, and wouldn't it alleviate the triple-leaf effect?

It would still be three-leaf, but if you put enough mass on it you can probably compensate. However, you'll need to provide accurate details of how the original outer wall is built (what each layer is, how thick it is, etc.), and an accurate measurement of the gap between that wall and the "homasote" wall that you have right now, in order to figure out your MSM resonance (theoretically) and your isolation (theoretically). How much isolation do you need, in terms of decibels? How loud are you? That window is also a concern: Can you seal that up? - Stuart -

OK. The outer walls are 2x4 studs, spaced 24" apart. There is 3.5" Ultratouch (cotton) insulation in between the joists (this can be changed if necessary/better to use rockwool/703 or something like that). There is a single 1/2" layer of homosote screwed directly onto the outside of the walls right now. As to the space between the outer studio walls and the existing basement walls, there are 21" of space on the left side of the control room, 15" on the left (where the window is), 1" between the amp closet and the control room (this can be made larger, if needed, by making amp closet slightly smaller), and 1.5" of clearance between the ceiling of the rooms and the basement ceiling (again, the gap cabe ne made larger, but ceiling in the control room would come down). As stated in my OP, I don't make a terrible lot of noise, just one guitar ampgoing at a time for tracking (a Mesa Lone Star or Marshall stack) turned up fairly loud, but not deafening). No drum kits or full bands. I can definitely seal the window. Any recommendations as to how? So, if triple-leaf is bad, could I: 1. strip off the homosote on the outside of the walls and out 2 layers of sheetrock on clips/channel on the inside of the walls? 2. add (green glue & screw) a single layer of sheetrock on top of the homosote that is already on the outside? 3. Any other ideas? Thanks!

if you can build inside out, i'd just apply the 2x drywall on the outside of the homasote. then on the inside of the room you can add slats etc. to treat the room. for the area between the rooms, put the drywall on the inside of the rooms so leave the air gap as large as possible.