Soundproofing Checklist plan, am I realistic with this?

Started by Southbay Ampworks on 7 September 2010. 38 replies, 2010–2011.

Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 14782.

Ok, when I joined here years ago I thought I'd have done this by now, but the right house finally showed up in So Cal, so my wife & I bought it, and there was a 3 car garage converted to a guest house in back. Lending made the sellers convert it back to a garage with a 2 & 1 car garage door, plus rip out the bath/kitchen/etc. So I'm starting over to make a storage area 12x15 for my gear, a 9x12 workroom/computer room (recording enabled), and a 17x23 foot demo room. As this will be for testing guitar amps/cabs/speakers, the idea is to soundproof this area as much as possible when someone twists a 100w Marshall volume to 10, and lets it rip through two 4x12 cabs. So I perused this forum, and browbeat some clients, plus I have a friend who's done a few of these as the contractor putting it together. So far his plan is to do the "room within a room" concept. The first wall is the garage, which will have R13 insulation added to it, then a dead air space of 1.5", then the second wall (2x4 construction) with another layer of R13 insulation. Within the 2nd 2x4 wall (closest to the inside demo area) I'm planning on using 5/8" sheetrock, then put 1/2" spacing strips (furrier strips of wood) to create another dead air space before attaching 1/2" soundboard drywall. The 9x12 and 17x23 foot room are the ones that need soundproofing, so they'll both have double walls, insulation, etc. Here's what we're converting...a 3 car garage w/attached 3/4 bath (might become a vocal booth eventually). Left side (as shown in diagram below) of garage.
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1 car garage pic (from garage door angle)
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Right side (as shown in diagram below)
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The 2 car garage door that exists now. The plan was to put in two walls in front of the door, then put foam into the door folding spaces.
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The questions I have that I need experienced opinions on are: 1) Should I go with R13 insulation twice, or something thicker (say R30) once or twice (two layers as described in each 2x4 wall with the R13)? Is two layers of R13 opposing each other with a dead space of 1.5" thick effective at sound deadening or only insulation of heat and cold? 2) Since the 5/8 sheetrock is roughly $6 per 4x8ft piece, and the 1/2" soundboard is roughly $9 per piece (Home Depot), why not spend the extra money on two layers of 1/2 soundboard for better sound control? Or is there a good reason to have the 5/8 standard sheetrock (gypsum), then the 1/2" soundboard? I would think two layers of 1/2" soundboard would be more effective, but maybe I'm nuts. The low ceiling (7ft 8in tall) in the 17x23 ft room is made of 3/4 pine (solid), with 6x6 beams across it. It has insulation on top already, but I'm planning on framing in the ceiling like the walls (16" centers), and then doing the same two layers of sheet/soundboard scenario with more R13 in between the beams. Am I missing something with this plan, or does it all seem "good to go" for containing these raging 100w Marshall stacks I'll be demoing for clients? Lend me your thoughts and real world soundproofing experiences please! I'm getting the insulation tomorrow, ordering the sheetrock and soundboard tomorrow afternoon if at all possible. Thanks very much in advance!
Soundman2020 reply:
Soundman2020 wrote:
Now my reply: ---------------------
The first wall is the garage, .... then the second wall (2x4 construction) with another layer of R13 insulation. Within the 2nd 2x4 wall .... I'm planning on using 5/8" sheetrock, then put 1/2" spacing strips (furrier strips of wood) to create another dead air space before attaching 1/2" soundboard drywall.
That would be a REALLY bad idea! That would create a three-leaf system with a very high resonant frequency on the third leaf! Putting thin light-weight panels over a thin air gap is a MAJOR bad idea. The isolation would be pretty bad. Just stick to a standard fully decoupled 2-leaf MSM structure. Two leaves, and only two. Fully decoupled. Each leaf should be two layers of 5/8" drywall on its own set of studs. Seal it all airtight, and fill the air gap with 48 kg/m3 insulation. Simple!
which will have R13 insulation added to it, then a dead air space of 1.5",
In an MSM wall system, your air gap (spring) is not just the empty space between the studs: it is the entire space between the two leaves, including the insulation. In your case, the air gap will be something like 8 1/2", which is good. Or at least, it will be good provided that you do everything else right! :)
The 9x12 and 17x23 foot room are the ones that need soundproofing, so they'll both have double walls, insulation, etc.
Don't forget the ceilings! Just doing walls won't help at all. Room-in-a-room with MSM means the entire structure, not just the walls. It means keeping the mass on both leaves roughly the same, all around all five sides of the entire room.
1) Should I go with R13 insulation twice, or something thicker (say R30) once or twice (two layers as described in each 2x4 wall with the R13)? Is two layers of R13 opposing each other with a dead space of 1.5" thick effective at sound deadening or only insulation of heat and cold?
The purpose of the insulation inside an MSM wall is NOT to "deaden" the sound. Its purpose is to act as a damper on the "air spring", to reduce resonance in the cavity, to lower the resonant frequency, and to broaden and flatten the Q, thus maximizing isolation. Leave out the insulation and it will cost you many decibels of isolation! So you certainly do want it in there, and you want as much as possible. You can use ordinary pink fluffy fiberglass, or mineral wool. You need something with a density of around 48 kg/m3, give or take a few kg (less for fiberglass), and you should make it as thick as your building code allows. If you can fill the entire cavity, then do so! If not, then fill as much as you are allowed to fill.
2) Since the 5/8 sheetrock is roughly $6 per 4x8ft piece, and the 1/2" soundboard is roughly $9 per piece (Home Depot), why not spend the extra money on two layers of 1/2 soundboard for better sound control? Or is there a good reason to have the 5/8 standard sheetrock (gypsum), then the 1/2" soundboard?
Yes, there are a number of very good reasons why you do not want 1/2" soundboard in your build! Forget the 1/2" stuff, and go with the 5/8". One reason is mass (you want as much mass as you possibly can get), but other reasons include the flexibility and resonant frequency of the board itself. 1/2" is too thin, too light, to flexible, and has too high a resonant frequency for doing what you need for your application. Stick with 5/8" for everything. Do at least two layers of 5/8" for each leaf, with staggered joints, and use Green Glue between the layers. Forget the 1/2": it is not your friend.
I would think two layers of 1/2" soundboard would be more effective, but maybe I'm nuts.
It would be much less effective: Like many things about acoustics, this is not intuitive at all, so don't feel like you are nuts! This isn't about what "sounds like a good idea", but rather about what actually works, based on the laws of physics that govern sound waves and acoustics. The 1/2" stuff has much less mass than 5/8" stuff, is more flexible, and has the wrong resonant frequency for what you need. That all means that it does not isolate well at low frequencies, when used as part of an MSM structure. Cranking up a large amp with big speakers can potentially produce a lot of low frequency energy, which is really hard to isolate. You cannot isolate low frequencies with highly flexible low mass light weigh drywall. It wont work. And stacking up more layers of 1/2" on top of each other won't work either: that adds mass, but does nothing about the other problems. So just stick to 5/8. 5/8 is your friend.
The low ceiling (7ft 8in tall) in the 17x23 ft room is made of 3/4 pine (solid), with 6x6 beams across it. It has insulation on top already,
So what is above the insulation? That's the real question. You don't want to create a three-leaf system above you, any more than you want a three-leaf system in the walls. You need to get up there and see what you have above the pine and the insulation: How big is the air gap where the insulation is, and what is above it?
but I'm planning on framing in the ceiling like the walls (16" centers), and then doing the same two layers of sheet/soundboard scenario with more R13 in between the beams.
Once again, go with 2 layers of 5/8" with Green Glue in between, hung from your new joists. And don't forget that the new ceiling CANNOT rest on the existing walls, and CANNOT be attached to the existing ceiling in any way. It must rest ONLY on the new inner-leaf walls, or all your effort will be wasted. 16" OC might or might not work, depending on how much you need to span and what type of wood you use for the joists. 24" OC would be better, but you'd need larger joists.
Am I missing something with this plan,
Yes, quite a few things: #1: You are forgetting to seal and beef up the existing garage doors! Since you say you want to use the existing shell as your outer leaf, that implies that the existing doors are going to need some major treatment. Your best bet if local regulations allow it would be to simply remove those doors and brick up the hole. Second best would be to leave them in place and brick up behind them. Third best would be to beef them up in place somehow. #2: Another thing you are forgetting is HVAC and electrical: you need to ventilate and cool those rooms, and you need to get power in them. That all has to be planned properly in advance, just like the walls, ceiling, doors and windows (if any). #3: You didn't mention it, but I assume that you are aware that you have to seal everything air-tight. Each leaf of your walls and ceiling must be absolutely hermetically sealed. So must your doors.
I'm getting the insulation tomorrow, ordering the sheetrock and soundboard tomorrow afternoon if at all possible.
Whooooaaa!!!! It sounds like you are getting WAY ahead of yourself here! You don't even have a workable plan in place yet, you haven't considered some major issues that are extremely important, and you seem to be heeding some of the common myths and rumors about acoustics that are still floating around the internet, instead of basing your build on science! I'd say it's a little premature to be ordering materials at this stage! I'd suggest that you slow down, throw out the myths you have learned, get your head around how sound and acoustics REALLY work, get your plans sorted out properly in full detail, and THEN think about ordering materials. For example, you don't even know how much isolation you need! You have given no measurements here of how loud you intend to be inside your room (in terms of decibels), or how quiet you need be outside to avoid lawsuits and cops banging on the door (also in terms of decibels). Without those very basic numbers you cannot possibly know how much isolation you need, and therefore you cannot possibly know what kind of construction you need. Isolating a room acoustically isn't guesswork and hope: it is science. You start with the numbers, and set a goal, then figure out what you need to do to reach your goal. The numbers will dictate how much isolation you need, which in turn will give you a couple of choices on how to build your room: You then select one of those choices based on your budget, and design the room with that, taking into account a whole bunch of factors that you haven't even mentioned so far (such as room geometry and ratios for example). Then you look for building materials that will do what you need to do. And only then do you go out and buy the materials. So my advice would be to take several steps back, and start planning your build properly before you do anything else. The chances of it working out perfectly without it being designed properly in advance, are somewhere around zero. - Stuart -
Soundman2020 wrote:
Next time, please DO NOT delete posts while others might be working on answers for them... - Stuart -
Sorry Stuart. I wound up doing about two hours of searching on the forum, and found most of the answers you gave me (but the search took some time) from different threads, and a LOT of reading. I thank you for your detailed response. At that point I felt I shouldn't have started the thread at all....four hours later. :wink: I'll be climbing up in the ceiling tomorrow to see what's going on up there before proceeding any further. I suspect that the beams crossing over the 17x23 foot room are attached to the sides of the garage, and would need to be cut so that they only are attached to the inner wall we're building (which is decoupled from the sides of the garage). This would mean that removal of the beams would become necessary as the ceiling would be too low to stand in after another 5 inches of the inner wall for the new ceiling would be added, if I'm reading your post right (something I gathered through my four hour search/reading adventure). Looks like I'll be having the contractors remove that existing beam ceiling to construct two new layers...what a joy! The only other way around that would be to build a second 2x4 frame ABOVE the existing beams and ceiling, although at that point, removing the whole existing beam/ceiling in the 17x23 foot room would probably make more sense anyway so I can properly build those two ceilings. I've updated the drawing of the garage above with another picture of the beamed ceiling, with more detail. But thanks for taking the time to reply to my post!
There was already another set of joists (2x6) above the beamed solid wood ceiling. That is getting reinforced with additional supports to the roof joists. Above that were going to frame in the existing joists, replace the plywood that's up there, fill it with R30 insulation, and put 3/4" plywood on top of that, so we'll basically have the two leaf system there, with a large air gap going up to the roof rafters. That whole area will then be used as storage with whatever my wife can put there (Xmas lights/paper/lights, etc) so that will create additional sound dampening (I hope!). To create the room within a room we're going to add onto the underside of the current ceiling with two layers of 5/8 drywall w/Green Glue, and then the garage door is getting dampened with Insulfoam, leaving a 10" air gap before two layers of drywall over a 2x4 wall w/R13 insulation, then another 2" air gap, more R13 insulation/2x4 wall with two layers of 5/8" with Green Glue in between. All of the walls around the demo room, ceiling/work room are getting double leafed, double drywall with double insulation. Hopefully that will do the trick. I'll post pics tomorrow of the progress.
Take care with the foam, as it doesn't help much with the cavity resonance. Standard fiberglass is about as good as it gets for low frequency in-cavity resonance.
Ok, pics progress of the work done so far. Original plan. The 8x12 ft room (upper right) became 9.5 x 12 ft to allow for an 8 foot double pain slider to be installed. The storage room (upper left) was cut down to 13x12 to allow for that. All of these rooms have double 2x4 walls, double insulation. There are going to be two layers of 5/8" drywall on each wall (four drywall layers per wall) all around, except for the demo room (16x22, lower bottom room) which already has stucco/plaster on the outside. The ceilings in the demo and 9.5x12 foot room will all have Green Glue between their dual 5/8" drywall layers.
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Storage room (upper left in drawing) for speakers/cabs/parts/etc. Right side:
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Left side:
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Center:
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Work room (upper right in drawing). There's an attic ladder to go to the upstairs storage area (still yet to be framed in and filled with R30 insulation and plywood above the ceiling).
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Demo room (16x22 feet, lower middle room). That's a 25,000 BTU 230v A/C unit for cooling. New sub panel with 12 circuits, isolating the lights, A/C, TV, amps, computer, with 2 extra future circuits available for additional expansion as it arises. Of course there are all new receptacles/boxes that are sealed with expanding foam before the drywall/insulation go in, as well all new 12/2 Romex wiring. The bathroom hasn't been reinstalled yet, I think I'm just going to put in a sink/mirror/toilet, and leave the shower out so it can be a vocal room (if necessary). Solid core 36" doors are on order, and fold out/locking shutters with double 5/8" drywall will be made to cover the A/C, and window areas.
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You are keeping the garage door operational, then? That will be the weakest link and define your overall results.
Ted White wrote:
You are keeping the garage door operational, then? That will be the weakest link and define your overall results.
While the garage door is staying, it's getting Insulfoam installed in it. We've taken off the rails for it to work already and it will get blocked in as well. That area will be double walled, double drywalled, double insulated as well, w/Green Glue between the inside drywall layers. No cars will go in this at all, we have a 2-3 car carport behind the garage as well. I also have some old carpet from the previous guest house that is going to be hung up between the garage door and the inside walls.
Ah. So you'll build another framed wall in front of the garage door. The insulfoam is to seal the door shut? You'll avoid having the foam contact the new stud wall? Sorry if I sound like an old mother
The Insulfoam is to deaden any sound that might make it past both 2x4 walls/drywall/green glue layers. The carpet is going against the garage door, with the Insulfoam cut to fit tightly in the garage door panel/supports. While the optimum building result would be no garage door, if we ever sell this property, it will make it easier for the new buyer to return the garage to a garage (w/upgrades!) without taking out more than one wall. The single car garage door will stay operational on the far side, though, but no car, just inventory.
I may be misunderstanding, but you'll have three walls? The original exterior wall, and then two inner walls? That could be a Triple Leaf unless the space bewteen the garage door and the closest wall is open to the surrounding area. In other words, if there are two (or more) sealed cavities, you'll have a triple leaf. I'm sure you're aware of that, however. You seem to have done a lot of reading. Given the lack of mass of the foam, the best thing it can bring to the table is sealing the door from drafts.
Yes, there will be an 8-12 inch gap between the garage door and the two inner walls. That gap will be filled with a layer of 3/8" thick carpet, 1.5" thick Insulfoam in the garage door, and I'm deciding if I should just leave it open or put something in that air gap, but I'm leaning towards the air gap being empty. I realize this might "technically" be a 3 leaf system but I can't see how that thin garage door could be considered much of anything but a snare drum resonator, so after talking it over with others who have done this before, the double 2x4 layer, plus the four layers of 5/8" seemed a lot more reasonable at blocking the sound. I could always remove the garage door I suppose and store it if it was an issue.
It's not a (practical) triple leaf if that 8 1/2" air cavity is open to the surrounding area. Sounds like you'll be fine. Take care designing the air ventilation system.
I just went out and measured the gap behind the 2 car garage door to where the first wall will be built. Roughly 10" deep air gap, then the double drywall/insulation/2x4 1st wall, 2" air gap then the 2nd 2x4 wall/insulated/double drywall w/Green Glue (closest to the amps & cabs) layer. I've also got a buddy who does home theaters who's going to bring in some wall coverings to deflect the sound.
The more open that back area is, the less likely to create a resonance. Open and airy is good for that spot.
Progress update. The demo room had a 3/4 inch pine "tongue in groove" type ceiling with beams underneath. Since that was already in place we're going to frame in between the beams to attach 2 layers of 5/8" drywall, and fill with R13 insulation. The drywall layers will have Green Glue between them.
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In this picture you can see the old pine ceiling had some extra pieces on top they didn't use. The ceiling has been filled with R30 insulation, and then a new 3/4" plywood layer is going above that from end to end to create a flat storage area and my 2nd leaf as well.
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This area is above my 12 x 13 ft. storage room, it will get drywall layers underneath, R30 insulation, then the 3/4" plywood layer. This room doesn't need soundproofing.
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This is my 9x12 ft. workroom area. It's getting double layers of drywall, Green Glue between them, then R30, and the 3/4" plywood layer as well. While it shouldn't need to be soundproofed, I'm going to do the Green Glue to it's walls/ceilings to contain the sound when the slider is opened, even if it's just for a few seconds.
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The contractors come back to finish up the framing in the demo room and start installing drywall today. More pics as it progresses. Now that the insulation is mostly in it gets hot out there, and I'm pleased to report that 25,000 BTU A/C unit is doing a wonderful job of keeping it cool out there as three guys sweat, huff and puff through their work!
You could add the GG / Drywall from the attic side as well. You also might consider omitting the OSB on the top of the joists to avoid the creation of an air cavity and corresponding resonance.
Ted White wrote:
You could add the GG / Drywall from the attic side as well. You also might consider omitting the OSB on the top of the joists to avoid the creation of an air cavity and corresponding resonance.
I'm not getting that crazy! LOL This little project has already passed $10K in parts & labor, and there's a good 2-3 days of labor left (at $500 per day), plus carpet, wall treatments, lights and "ambiance" (guitar hooks/guitars on them, amps, cabs, couch and bar stools). I'm afraid whatever resonance is created above my ceiling (there's a 12" air gap there, by the way) will have to be the way it is. There's only so much $$$ for this project.
I meant install the GG / Drywall from the top rather than from below. Less labor $. And consider spending the cash on the plywood deck on top of the insulation. Both cost saving ideas.
Ted, the two layers of 5/8" are going under the beams in the demo room (green glue between them). There's R13 going between the drywall and the beamed ceiling. Then there's R30 above that, then the 3/4" plywood on top.
Ah. I was picturing "in between the beams" You are decoupling the ceiling drywall from the beams? I would still suggest omitting the 3/4" ply on top, unless you need to walk / store stuff up there.
No, we're not able to decouple the drywall from the ceiling. It will be attached to the beams and the framed in portion. That's why I'm doing the 3/4" all the way across the top of the garage to create the 2nd leaf. The first leaf will be pretty solid, though, with two layers of drywall, beams, framed in with 2x4's to allow the drywall to be mounted, then the 3/4" pine tongue in groove above the beams, then 12" of R30, then the 3/4" plywood above that, all across the garage and over the other rooms, too. That will make for a lot of storage. Hopefully my wife can't fill it all up with her Xmas, and other memorabilia she stores. LOL
They key phrase is "wife... storage..." otherwise you'd have higher isolation without the 3/4" ply. You'd omit the cavity resonance
Ted White wrote:
They key phrase is "wife... storage..." otherwise you'd have higher isolation without the 3/4" ply. You'd omit the cavity resonance
Yeah, I know, but sometimes you have to compromise with "she who must be obeyed"...I imagine leaving a small portion around the edge uncovered isn't going to help much since 95% of it will be covered, correct?
You're correct on all counts...