Studio design 8 x 10 m new building

Hi. Jonas Kellander diggin in for a studio build! Located in southeast Sweden. This is going to be a new building conected to an older one. So the exicting building will set some mesurments. The studio is going to serve the purpuse for recording live acustic 2-6 piece ensembles and rockbands where tracking in iso room for guitar and bas amps is posible. So CR, LR and 2 iso rooms and a small kitchen and pentry with 4 beds on the loft of the kitchen/iso2/WC are beeing built. Design goal for LR is changeble reverb time through open/close absorbers/reflektors. The planning continues in post nr 5. This is 2013 :D HOW LOUD AM I? The building is surounded by fields so noise from outside is one problem, heavy machines are working the fields at periods in spring and fall. Neighbours are aprox. 70 meters through woods and 100 m over fields. When playing drums inside the building as it is now it´s loud outside! It has to be quiet outside. 2013- Yes, this is the same... Existing building Floor: concreet slab, no data so far. Have to do some digging to se how thick this old slab might be. Wals: light concrete, 20 cm thick Roof: wood construktiuon with cement dubbel roman tiles. Not yet decided how to alter eccept that hight wanted for inner lief is 2,7 m. Probebly in the style of "oasis" studio. 2013 - NO New building Floor: concrete slab, floated concrete floor in iso on old slab??. Wals: light concrete or woodframed 145x45mm cc45mm. Roof: wood construktiuon with cement dubbel roman tiles. 2013 - Floor: concrete slab Wals: woodframed, 0,4 m thick + outside 22 mm wood, inside 2 x plasterboard. Roof: woodframed, 0,5 m thick + outside 22 mm wood, boardroof, inside 2 x plasterboard. Studio build "Inside out wals", 2 leaf with different mass/leaf on wooden frames (red this somwhere). Waals direct on concrete slab, only mouster barrier between concrete-wood. Build order: 1 Walls and roof in ”shell” house where LV beeing built need some care. Prepear electric, signal, HVAC. 2 LR 3 new slab with extra ground conections, walls and roof for pentry, citchen and entrence. 4 CR 5,25 m x 3,7 m x 2,45 m (Ratio: 1:1.51:2.14), ISO1, ISO2, machine room. Electric, signal, HVAC. 2013 - From ground up, studio design consult for decisions. Budget 25000 us $ 21000 euro 2013 - 80000-85000 $ Q: 1. I red that 2 x 15 mm plastic are not to be replaced by thinner and moore layers due to the stiffnes found in the 15mm material? The layout does show the main wals, CR gonna have sofit mounted speakers and basetrapping in rear corners, the doors gonna be placed as close to thees basetrapps as posible. LR is under concideration. Got to think of a good way to use corners and angles. 2. Is there any obvius misstakes to reconcidder befor sketching up the rest of the project? Regards jonas

Jonas, The first thing that I noticed from your picture, (ignoring the fact that all your walls are slanted - why?) -- your iso booths are right in the reflection zone or in the way of the soffit speakers. If you plan to build from scratch, I would suggest that you hire a designer.

jonaskellander wrote:

HOW LOUD AM I? The building is surounded by fields so noise from outside is one problem, heavy machines are working the fields at periods in spring and fall. Neighbours are aprox. 70 meters through woods and 100 m over fields. When playing drums inside the building as it is now it´s loud outside! It has to be quiet outside.

Yes, it does. You would be surprised how far sound will travel across an open field :shock: Your finished isolation should be STC70 or better.

jonaskellander wrote:

Existing building Floor: concreet slab, no data so far. Have to do some digging to se how thick this old slab might be. Wals: light concrete, 20 cm thick Roof: wood construktiuon with cement dubbel roman tiles. Not yet decided how to alter eccept that hight wanted for inner lief is 2,7 m. Probebly in the style of "oasis" studio.

What is the interior height of the ceiling now?

jonaskellander wrote:

New building Floor: concrete slab, floated concrete floor in iso on old slab??. Wals: light concrete or woodframed 145x45mm cc45mm. Roof: wood construktiuon with cement dubbel roman tiles.

Is there a railroad passing nearby?? why do you want to float a slab? That will eat your entire budget of $25K - well, not really. but it will take a huge bite out of it. Bottom line: You do not need to float a floor... especially there. :)

jonaskellander wrote:

Studio build "Inside out wals", 2 leaf with different mass/leaf on wooden frames (red this somwhere). Waals direct on concrete slab, only mouster barrier between concrete-wood. Build order: 1 Walls and roof in ”shell” house where LV beeing built need some care. Prepear electric, signal, HVAC. 2 LR 3 new slab with extra ground conections, walls and roof for pentry, citchen and entrence. 4 CR 5,25 m x 3,7 m x 2,45 m (Ratio: 1:1.51:2.14), ISO1, ISO2, machine room. Electric, signal, HVAC.

OK, 1. Why inside out walls? Can you list the benefits? Do they beat a normal wall for STC? answer: no. They work for interior booths, but I would not recommend them for general studio isolation construction. 2. two different mass/leaf??? You can not do better than standard building materials like gypsum board... several layers and then there is air. Air is plentiful and free. Just make a space with it. ;) Then do another wall just like the first. done. If you would like design help, PM me.

jonaskellander wrote:

Budget 25000 us $ 21000 euro

Jonas, for STC70+ isolation, several rooms, acoustic treatment, lighting, plumbing, kitchen... $25K is not enough. You are probably looking at around $75K minimum.

jonaskellander wrote:

1. I red that 2 x 15 mm plastic are not to be replaced by thinner and moore layers due to the stiffnes found in the 15mm material?

What are you asking?? plastic? Did you mean plaster board? If so, that's not necessarily true. If you cannot get 2 layers of 15mm gypsum board, use 3 layers of 13mm. It's fine.. it just costs more for the same TL (transmission loss).

jonaskellander wrote:

The layout does show the main wals, CR gonna have sofit mounted speakers and basetrapping in rear corners, the doors gonna be placed as close to thees basetrapps as posible. LR is under concideration. Got to think of a good way to use corners and angles.

Flush mounted speakers are the way to go. Broadband trapping should be more than just the back corners. You have 12 corners in a rectangular room.. use all of them if you can. -- Corners and angles.. hmmm I am not a fan of angled walls unless they are the thin facade or covering in a room to control reflected energy. If you are trying to eliminate modal issues by slanting the heavy shell walls, you will most likely make things worse and at the very least incalculable and possibly incurable. The only successful slant or angling of a wall to control modal issues or to spread the modes into the oblique is the Geddes approach. Again, I wouldn't use this approach in a control room. But it is wonderful in a Tracking room. I am currently designing a studio with such a tracking room. So to make a long story short; Rectangles rule! If you are not building a rectangular room - don't bother with modal calculations or room ratios. With slanted walls, those calculations and ratios go out the window... and pfft! You're lost!

jonaskellander wrote:

2. Is there any obvius misstakes to reconcidder befor sketching up the rest of the project?

You are in the right place. But remember there's a lot more to it than some online help here. ok? If you are going to spend more than $10K, get a designer. Rod Gervais, me, Andre at onlineacoustics.com, and hey! -- John Sayers! I promise you that a good designer/consultant will save you more than his fee. Good luck! You are in the right place asking questions here. :wink: Cheers, John

Hi! Thanks for the input, I´ll try to answer some of your Q.

jhbrandt wrote:

Jonas, The first thing that I noticed from your picture, (ignoring the fact that all your walls are slanted - why?)

The walls are slanted as a result of CR beeing a copy of the 101CR shape, just scaled down to fit inside the building a have.

jhbrandt wrote:

-- your iso booths are right in the reflection zone or in the way of the soffit speakers.

The sofit mount I have in mind use the space insid the CR, in this style: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5457 Are iso´s still in reflection zone?

jhbrandt wrote:

If you plan to build from scratch, I would suggest that you hire a designer.

That might be the end solution!

jhbrandt wrote:

What is the interior height of the ceiling now?

2,57 m -32mm gypsum and then some for leveling the floor. so 2,5 m to build inside. [/quote]

jhbrandt wrote:

OK, 1. Why inside out walls? Can you list the benefits? Do they beat a normal wall for STC? answer: no.

I did believe that a light concrete wall+ the mass from gypsumboards on wood frame and the use of "703 style" material inside made a "2 lief MSM" wall. Inside out seems to be right in small rooms as I end up with as broadband absorbers probebly have to cover large areas. This is what I had in mind when I made the layout shown in the first picture, "outside wall".

jhbrandt wrote:

If you cannot get 2 layers of 15mm gypsum board, use 3 layers of 13mm. It's fine.. it just costs more for the same TL (transmission loss).

ok.

jhbrandt wrote:

I am not a fan of angled walls unless they are the thin facade or covering in a room to control reflected energy. If you are trying to eliminate modal issues by slanting the heavy shell walls, you will most likely make things worse and at the very least incalculable and possibly incurable. The only successful slant or angling of a wall to control modal issues or to spread the modes into the oblique is the Geddes approach. Again, I wouldn't use this approach in a control room. But it is wonderful in a Tracking room. I am currently designing a studio with such a tracking room. So to make a long story short; Rectangles rule! If you are not building a rectangular room - don't bother with modal calculations or room ratios. With slanted walls, those calculations and ratios go out the window... and pfft! You're lost!

My mind was set on "thin facade or covering in a room to control reflected energy", "Reflection Free Zone" for CR. So I mixed up room shape and room treatment?

jhbrandt wrote:

You are in the right place. But remember there's a lot more to it than some online help here. ok? If you are going to spend more than $10K, get a designer. Rod Gervais, me, Andre at onlineacoustics.com, and hey! -- John Sayers! I promise you that a good designer/consultant will save you more than his fee. Good luck! You are in the right place asking questions here. :wink:

I have contacts with local studiobuilders (http://www.pamarecords.com/) and enginers with good skills. I find it most interesting and pleasing to gather new knowledge and understand why my money beeing spent the way they are at the end! Take care! Jonas

2.5m is pretty low. It looks like you are building double walls everywhere. If so, you will need to have ceilings on those double walls. You could go with resilient clips and channel to hang a couple of layers of gypsum board on the ceiling to improve TL. I don't know if you mixed up the room shape and treatment. -- There seems to be a consensus here that slanted walls are cool. Yes, they really do look cool. And a wall slant can function to create a reflection free zone, eliminate flutter echo, to direct 'ray region' sound to diffusors and/or absorbers. There are many great uses for a slanted wall. There are also many assumed and incorrect uses for a slanted wall. One of them is that the slanted wall is used to 'break up' modal behavior. This is not true. The only wall slant that I know to actually work, is the double slant of a massive wall (Geddes). Splaying walls will not remedy modal issues and sometimes can make things worse. At the very least it makes modal calculations impossible. That's why I didn't offer any opinions on the best mode response of your rooms. I hope that this helps. Cheers, John

jhbrandt wrote:

2.5m is pretty low. It looks like you are building double walls everywhere. If so, you will need to have ceilings on those double walls. You could go with resilient clips and channel to hang a couple of layers of gypsum board on the ceiling to improve TL.

2.5m is worst senario, a building enginere have to determin how the rafter can be altered to gain more space. If posible the inner roof of room in room will end up being 2.7m.

jhbrandt wrote:

I hope that this helps.

Got me thinking, that´s great! Take care Jonas

Hi. I discussed the construction with an arcitect. If I was to add new rafters to the existing ones to reach 2.9m inside hight it´s a god idea to have atleast one wall conecting the outer walls for stability. In the pictures the "blue" wall is 2"x4" stud construktion (no lief) conecting outer walls-rafters. So from CR: 2"x4" studs with gypsym boards on one side, 165mm air in witch the "blue wall" fits, 2"x4" studs with gypsym boards on one side. "Red wall" 2"x4" stud wall with gypsum board on "kitchen" side, this wall is allso conected to the outer walls and rafters. Is one of two liefs of CR wall facing kitchen. (doors and soffit from Johns "small studio") Take care! Jonas

Jonas, Sorry for the delayed response. I've been pretty busy... Yes for stability you will need to add resilient bracing to the walls. I recommend the Mason Industries products (ie; WIC clips) as well as PAC International (RSIC-SB Sway Brace). But do not connect the isolation walls rigidly to the existing structure. I'm not sure if i get your drawing.. are the CR walls double or MSM? Cheers, John

jonaskellander wrote:

Hi. I discussed the construction with an arcitect. If I was to add new rafters to the existing ones to reach 2.9m inside hight it´s a god idea to have atleast one wall conecting the outer walls for stability. Take care! Jonas

Trusses, you are saying rafters but you surely must mean trusses. To add more rafters, which suggests you have existing rafters and you are going to add more to these, adds more weight to an already weighted structure. It also suggests that ceiling joists will not be installed, and this will not happen with a stick framed roof without support at the ridge line. The potential for the exterior walls to spread apart is significant with not only the existing weight of rafters but the added weight. For a structure that you say will be 40 feet long (12200mm) this would require posts at both ends and 2 and maybe 3 posts placed at intervals from the ridge to the slab. Your building seems to be about 720 square feet, with a 25K budget, that comes in @ $34.75(USD) a square foot. That is a really low number. Brien

Planing part 2. The building discussed earlier in this topic will be the guesthouse, so no more discussion about that one when it comes to soundproofing.... With the help from designers in recording studios and housebuilding in this snowy place this is the parameters I currently have. 1. Land to build a studio 8 x 10 meters. It might be 6 x 8 meters as well or somewhere in that area. 2. The studio will be connected to the existing house as it´s winter and snow 6 month of the year it´s nice to be able to reach the studio from inside the house. Or it may not be connected to the house due to tax laws. 3. The best that can be done with material budget of 500.000 SEK, or 83000 US$ 4. Design with1 CR, 3 TR. Maybe a corner CR as in the plan from SAE, or a rectangular CR. This is where the studio designer have to assist. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4206 And this is what it looks like now.