That's good! It would be sad if it was 1/2", but 5/8" is great. So more tips: When you get down to the first layer of drywall, make sure that all the joints between sheets are sealed. Use acoustic caulk if you can get, or if not then any good quality caulk that remains flexible even when it is fully dry. Also caulk underneath the drywall (where it meets the floor) and at the top (where it meets the ceiling). And when you put the second layer on, stagger the joints between panels, so that nothing lines up form layer to layer (in other words, joints in the first layer are nowhere near joints in the second layer). And caulk the second layer like the first. The idea is to make that wall totally airtight. - Stuart -The drywall is 5/8".
Can't afford Green Glue.
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 14441.
Got it. I did the stagger on the joints and I am going to caulk with a nonhardening silicone. Thank you soundman 2020.
Paul
Is it just me or do others feel like dad just reached across the dinner table and slapped mom in the face!? :cry: Sorry - just trying to break some ice... Not to get all into an @ss kissing session here - but you are both rock stars as far as I'm concerned... (Rod - bought your book and read it cover to cover - excellent stuff... John - if it weren't for you, none of us here would stand a chance!) Perhaps it's b/c I'm on my 6th jack-n-coke that compelled me to make THIS my first post...but I've been lurking around here for years, and you're both invaluable. <heads back to the kitchen to make it number 7 :wink: >"If you can't afford green glue-you certainly can't afford to spend money doing something that will never help you" wow Rod - I've never specified Green Glue in any of my Projects. It's hard to establish your studio design career as you don't have a website displaying your work apart from facebook, but as I understand it you worked on the Power Station as a contractor, you contributed to two studios, one in the US, Studio H at Hit Productions as shown below:External image, not preserved — original: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2210/2496961680_5a931c005e.jpgand one in the Philippines, Hit Productions.net as I understand it. where did you use Green Glue in these constructions and why?
To be fair to you and the tape... "How to "Stagger-Stud" and soundproof existing stud walls using Sound Isolation Padding Tape: Assuming the wallboard has been removed and the studs are exposed- Apply 2 layers of the green 1/8"X1-7/16" tape to every other stud. This will build out the stud by about a 1/4". The tape has a peel-off backing and may be cut with scissors. Place your wall panels over the studs and fasten them only to the studs which have the tape. If the other wall is open do this to it also, alternating the studs, that is, do not apply tape to studs which have tape on them already on the other side. This system breaks the sound path through the studding and is very effective and inexpensive for reducing sound transfer through the wall. If you don't do anything else, do this! It can double the sound reduction of your wall, especially at speech frequencies. " As a means to establish a decoupled wall, it could work but everything matters like how much torque is applied to the screws, etc. It is the same thing that Mr. White showed with the link to his website. Different materials, but basically it's the same approach. Folks use the word intuitive in these forums like there is something that is intuitive, frankly, driving a bike isn't an intuitive thing which is why the reading part of any acoustic issue is so important. But that can be said about most any complicated process. Like building a bridge, not very intuitive ;) I know instructions are for girls but it really helps to read them, at least one time, just to make certain that you are on the same page with whoever you are trying to get on the same page with. ;) Brien... I am going to use this SSP Iso. Tape Green 1/8" thick (1-7/16" x 100') Roll. It is a lot cheaper and SHOULD be better than nothing. I got it here. http://shop3.mailordercentral.com/super ... 2745-143-1 I am using it on the studs for the first layer. I did not expect to use it on the second layer but it should help. Unless that little space it provides ruins the mass effect of two layers of drywall. Your thoughts on this would be interesting. The two layers bare pressed up against each other or the dampening tape in between? Thank you.
And the hits just keep on coming. Thank you Brien.
Here's a funny note. I read the instructions on the site and I called and talked to one of their techs. He said it was not necessary for the two layers of foam tape on the studs, maybe he was incorrect. I understand stagger stud and decoupling. I plan to build another room out of plywood inside the drywall box and will decouple that with a small air gap(2") from frame to frame. My question is this. If I am going to have two frames separated by an air gap, then wouldn't the drywall perform better with more stud/foam contact to dampen the surface? doesn't the drywall resonate with more of it's surface not contacting any dampeners like in the stagger stud? There are half as many dampening points so bigger areas to vibrate. I'm only talking about this scenario where a foam tape is applied to the stud which is supposed to have a dampening effect.
How about we try this one on for size......
unless your framing is 12" on center - their suggestions are a code violation. How's that sound?
These morons do not have a friggen clue....... and this kind of crap pisses me off to no small end...........
The building code requires that fastening schedules for drywall installed in buildings meet the requirements of publication GA-126.
GA-126 is the "APPLICATION AND FINISHING OF GYPSUM PANEL PRODUCTS" manual published by the Gypsum Association,
Here's a link you can go read it for yourself - check out:
Table 4 - Multi-Layer Application Without Adhesive Between Layers
and
Table 5 - Multi-Layer Application With Adhesive Between Layers
The tables establish the Maximum Framing to Framing Spacing required to provide support for drywall products.
In ALL CASES............ the maximum spacing is 24" on center.
IN some cases they require a max of 12 - others 16 - but it never exceeds 24.
So if your wall is 16" on center - never mind 24 - installing this on every other stud will place you at 32" framing to framing spacing - and you are in violation of the building code.
IN ADDITION TO THIS........ should you decide to ignore the building code (which I would not suggest) be very careful that the walls you do this to are not interior walls used to help brace the building (typically that would be things like the party walls between apartments - because they have their own special set of requirements as to spacing and fastening.
In addition to that - you are talking about modifying a fire separation between 2 living units - which is a minimum of 1 hour separation (unless your building is fully sprinkled at which point it would be 30 minutes) for existing construction - and I can promise you that there is not a UL assembly that has been tested and approved for the modification they are suggesting you make.
BTW - seeing as you as in the states you should know that here - if you take a required fire rated assembly and modify it so that it is no longer compliant - you are committing a crime - God forbid that a fire should occur and pass through that assembly you can be criminally prosecuted for making the modification (as well as on the hook for all costs incurred as a result) - you most probably will be charged with negligent homicide should someone die in the process........
Real bad Karma with this one...........
I am going to contact the people at that company and have a little talk with them -
Rod
Damping requires surface area. Like the surface area between two sheets of drywall. Damping cannot take place in any real sense with the small surface area on the edge of a stud or joist.
The assembly you describe is an attempt to create a decoupled system, however you'll be driving screws through the tape, which couples the system effectively.
So no decoupling takes place, and no damping.
Ted, with all due respect - the way this concept would work is not based on damping the sheet - it is based on a physical decoupling........ it would be exactly the same as adding wood furring to one side of alternating studs on one side of the wall - and creating (in effect) a quasi-staggered stud wall assembly - this would decouple you from 50% of the studs - which is why they advise that you also use the product on the remaining studs (on the opposite side of the wall) to complete the decoupling if at all possible. Besides the code issues - which for me are a huge deal........ this would also decrease low frequency isolation because it would create a less stiff assembly than previously existed - low frequency isolation is controlled (primarily) by wall stiffness......... The people at this company are morons - which is the kindest thing I can say about them......... RodDamping requires surface area. Like the surface area between two sheets of drywall. Damping cannot take place in any real sense with the small surface area on the edge of a stud or joist. The assembly you describe is an attempt to create a decoupled system, however you'll be driving screws through the tape, which couples the system effectively. So no decoupling takes place, and no damping.
Hi Rod,
Clearly no damping is happening. I was replying to this comment:
Having worked with this foam in a lab environment several years ago, I was not at all impressed with its ability to accomplish decoupling via a pseudo-staggering. The final compressed thickness is so small that you risk the untreated studs warping even slightly and providing an intermittent contact which you'll hear. Your comparison to wood furring applied to the studs is different, in that a much more sizeable and definitive gap would be created. So I would much prefer your wood furring suggestion, if applied horizontally 24" OC (to your excellent building code point). The foam is simply not worth the cost and is a liability in this application in my opinion, even if the studs were 12" OCwouldn't the drywall perform better with more stud/foam contact to dampen the surface? doesn't the drywall resonate with more of it's surface not contacting any dampeners like in the stagger stud? There are half as many dampening points so bigger areas to vibrate. I'm only talking about this scenario where a foam tape is applied to the stud which is supposed to have a dampening effect.
As Gilda Radner would have said on Saturday Night Live (while playing the part of Emily Litella) "Never Mind" BTW - I agree that even if the studs were 12" on center this would be a waste - I would not suggest otherwise - my reference to 12" only had to do with the code issue. RodHi Rod, Clearly no damping is happening. I was replying to this comment:Having worked with this foam in a lab environment several years ago, I was not at all impressed with its ability to accomplish decoupling via a pseudo-staggering. The final compressed thickness is so small that you risk the untreated studs warping even slightly and providing an intermittent contact which you'll hear. Your comparison to wood furring applied to the studs is different, in that a much more sizeable and definitive gap would be created. So I would much prefer your wood furring suggestion, if applied horizontally 24" OC (to your excellent building code point). The foam is simply not worth the cost and is a liability in this application in my opinion, even if the studs were 12" OCwouldn't the drywall perform better with more stud/foam contact to dampen the surface? doesn't the drywall resonate with more of it's surface not contacting any dampeners like in the stagger stud? There are half as many dampening points so bigger areas to vibrate. I'm only talking about this scenario where a foam tape is applied to the stud which is supposed to have a dampening effect.
That code issue is frankly something I never thought of. I'm really glad you brought it up, Gilda. I've always been so irate about the whole concept in general that I never looked any deeper.
Ted, the code issue is always my first look- if it isn't code compliant then it isn't viable regardless of how well it may work....... I think that is always a good starting point. RodThat code issue is frankly something I never thought of. I'm really glad you brought it up, Gilda. I've always been so irate about the whole concept in general that I never looked any deeper.
The only serious development of the method I am aware of is that of Ben Sharp. Adding to your last quoted line above, the improvements in TL were in the mid and upper frequencies. The region that is not of concern to us in studio isolation. Note to others reading the thread. In isolation of music performance spaces, the most difficult range to isolate is the low frequencies. If a partition is designed to adequately isolate the low frequencies, then the amound of isolate at higher frequensies is significantly greater than what is absolutely required. This is also the reason for one of the few true generalizations in acoustics, being "if you design for adequate low frequency isolation, the rest of frequencies will look after themselves." Well isolated and behaved, AndreHaving worked with this foam in a lab environment several years ago, I was not at all impressed with its ability to accomplish decoupling via a pseudo-staggering. The final compressed thickness is so small that you risk the untreated studs warping even slightly and providing an intermittent contact which you'll hear. The foam is simply not worth the cost and is a liability in this application in my opinion, even if the studs were 12" OC
Hi Rod, Clearly no damping is happening. I was replying to this comment:Having worked with this foam in a lab environment several years ago, I was not at all impressed with its ability to accomplish decoupling via a pseudo-staggering. The final compressed thickness is so small that you risk the untreated studs warping even slightly and providing an intermittent contact which you'll hear. Your comparison to wood furring applied to the studs is different, in that a much more sizeable and definitive gap would be created. So I would much prefer your wood furring suggestion, if applied horizontally 24" OC (to your excellent building code point). The foam is simply not worth the cost and is a liability in this application in my opinion, even if the studs were 12" OCwouldn't the drywall perform better with more stud/foam contact to dampen the surface? doesn't the drywall resonate with more of it's surface not contacting any dampeners like in the stagger stud? There are half as many dampening points so bigger areas to vibrate. I'm only talking about this scenario where a foam tape is applied to the stud which is supposed to have a dampening effect.
It's a good thing I only put two sides up. I will undo what I've done and move forward with all the new info. So I am not going to count on the foam tape for any real effect. I will end up with (two 5/8" drywall) stud frame w/ insul. then air gap then plywood stud wall frame w insul. (inside out wall).
Thank you all once again.
Paul 8)
Excellent advice as always.the code issue is always my first look- if it isn't code compliant then it isn't viable regardless of how well it may work....... I think that is always a good starting point. Rod