Can't afford Green Glue.

Hello Studio Geniuses, I live in Pompano Beach, Florida. US This is my second post. Been all over this site trying to find any other alternative to Green Glue. I am working on junkyard standards. I have a very small isolation booth project in my bedroom which will be for mixing. The dimensions are depressingly small. I am ready to put on my second layer of drywall but I am out of money. Green glue is not an option for me. on this page viewtopic.php?t=598 it says 5. Fastening a second layer of wallboard to a first layer, when the first is mounted on WOOD studs, should only be done using 4" wide stripes of slightly thinned joint compound over the stud area, then fastening with Type G laminatings screws approximately 2-3" away from the studs and parallel to them, on approximately 12" centers. This allows the two layers to act as separate panels, which maintains each panel's coincidence dip separate from the other. It also keeps any fasteners from penetrating BOTH layers of wallboard AND entering the WOOD studs. NOT doing this will lose about 9-10 dB of isolation due to flanking through the fasteners and into the studs. 5A - replaces 5, above - Fastening a second layer of wallboard to a first layer, when the first layer is mounted on WOOD studs: First, if building a SINGLE frame with wallboard on both sides, it's STRONGLY recommended to use Resilient Channel on ONE of the sides of the frame – otherwise, you lose several dB of isolation at mid and higher frequencies (above 100 hZ typically) – follow the rules for mounting wallboard to RC on this side – no screws in line with studs so you don't accidentally "short out" the RC. Fastening a second layer when there is NOT RC under, the most practical way is to mount the first layer using half as many screws as normal, same with any following layers EXCEPT the outer layer – this one should have full fastening schedule used, and with long enough screws to penetrate all layers and solidly fasten to the studs. Then is taken out in 5a. So is the 4" wide strips of joint compound a solution for me or was this not effective and that is why it was removed? Also could I use non hardening caulk? If so, which of the two would be best. Thank you very much in advance. Paul

The compound does not do much, if anything. That is why the paragraph was revised. Andre

Thank you Andre, So compound is out. What about non hardening caulk? Paul

Non hardening caulk will be no good either........ Green Glkue is not a glue - it is not a caulk - it has special properties - and acts by shearing which then turns the energy into heat - you cannot accomplish this with any caulks or glues........ There is a reason that doing this right is relatively expensive - and that is that you can't cheat your way into it somehow by using strictly common materials............. If you can't afford green glue-you certainly can't afford to spend money doing something that will never help you - Rod

"If you can't afford green glue-you certainly can't afford to spend money doing something that will never help you" wow Rod - I've never specified Green Glue in any of my Projects. It's hard to establish your studio design career as you don't have a website displaying your work apart from facebook, but as I understand it you worked on the Power Station as a contractor, you contributed to two studios, one in the US, Studio H at Hit Productions as shown below: and one in the Philippines, Hit Productions.net as I understand it. where did you use Green Glue in these constructions and why?

John Sayers wrote:

"If you can't afford green glue-you certainly can't afford to spend money doing something that will never help you" wow Rod - I've never specified Green Glue in any of my Projects. It's hard to establish your studio design career as you don't have a website displaying your work apart from facebook, but as I understand it you worked on the Power Station as a contractor, you contributed to two studios, one in the US, Studio H at Hit Productions as shown below:

External image, not preserved — original: http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2210/2496961680_5a931c005e.jpg

and one in the Philippines, Hit Productions.net as I understand it. where did you use Green Glue in these constructions and why?

John, to begin with I never suggested to the OP that he needed green glue - my comment was to point out that he was speaking of budget issues - and that what he was suggesting would be a waste of money - it won't help, it won't work - period. He is better off just adding mass - there are no cheap substitutes for Green Glue - which is specifically what the OP was asking. I am not having any problems establishing my career - I also have studios in Canada, Brooklyn NY - Tennessee (in construction) , a movie studio currently under design in Boston, studios in various phases of design in Maine & California - one currently under construction in Rhode Island. So I keep myself busy..... in fact my career is very well established. As far as Power Station New England - I was not the Contractor - I was the Project Manager/Engineer - I modified Tony's design slightly to correct for anomalies I discovered in the original design - which improved the acoustic properties of the studio over the original (which is why Tony loves me so)...... no green glue there - but the studio is enclosed in a 12" masonry building (new construction for that purpose) with (any) cores (not requiring bar and structural grout) filled with sand. This is immediately adjacent to a major 6 lanes of highway - no noise issues there..... I also do a lot of consulting work for code compliance, acoustical issues, HVAC problems, structural review and have a decent client base of architects and engineers who use my services. I occasionally speak at AISC's national conventions, help judge a steel design competition for them and have even been featured in an article in their monthly publication. I headed up the design team and designed the wall systems (HVAC as well) for Sonalyst's Stage 15 (15,000 sf movie studio) where the courtroom scenes for the movie Amistad were filmed - didn't use Green Glue there either - and the director said it was the quietest studio he ever worked in - the only one where he did not have to dub over any of the audio. This is not my primary line of work - which is design oversight of larger projects, generally working directly for the developers to see to it the design packages are correct - so i tend to not want to get buried to deeply in this. As far as my use of Green Glue in my designs - I do not use it in every project - do not, and never have, suggested that it is required at all - everything depends on the level of isolation one desires - and the method they want to take to make it from "A" to "B". In the case of the Philippians (Hit Productions) I was designing inside of an existing facility - on the top most floor of a building with a tin roof - and building some areas almost tight to the underside of that roof structure. The studio is in the heart of a large city - with other buildings towering over it - also the rains are known to be pretty wild there - the owner let me know that this could be an issue..... Beefing up the existing roof itself was not a viable option - so I opted for an application of multiple layers (double 5/8") of drywall with green glue on the studio side of the structure - with 2 layers over 3/4" plywood sheathing on the ceiling and just double layers on the outer walls......... . The owner has never had a time where this studio was not suitable for use. IN the case of the other studio you refer to (Dark Pines) - Max made it very clear that maximum isolation was critical to his needs - not only from the outside world - but room to room as well - so in this case I used Green Glue for the all of the interior surfaces of the design. Apparently it worked well because he was pretty happy with the fact that he can set up drums immediately outside of the door to the iso-booth and not have bleed though of those drums in the rooms mics. I also used green glue in the design of Godfrey Diamond's home control room (Godfrey is a commercial producer as well as an engineer and wanted to be able to bring work home to mix instead of having to live in the studio) with his challenges being that he lived between 2 residential units in a brownstone in Brooklyn NY - and he needed to be isolated from his neighbors - plus his wife is an artist who works of her her studio in the home - he was insistent that his space be located in the first floor and that the window looking out into the roadway remained in use...... I did not use Green Glue in Canada, nor in Tennessee - there was no need due to location and the owner's needs...... I am using it in California - but will not include it in the studio in Maine. So (for me) this is not a standard condition or design criteria - but is rather used on an as needed basis. BTW - I did not just contribute to those studios - in both cases the owners had a concept - I designed the studios to work while trying to maintain their concepts - in the case of Hit Productions we ended up going through maybe 4 or 5 different room layouts before we finalized where i was going with the design. In the case of Dark Pines - Max had a basic layout - I modified it - quite extensively.In this studio I also designed the HVAC systems. In all cases the acoustic design - both from the perspective of of isolation as well as the room's "treatments" were my design entirely. I have attached Max's concept drawing as well as the final outcome - and the same with Hit Productions. I do not consider that "contributing" any more than you would. The final outcome in both cases (and in all on my designs be they studios or otherwise) is mine - after completion of conceptual drawings with revisions that finally meet both the owners needs and approvals - the same as any other project I have ever worked on, Concept - Review, perhaps more Concept - Review - Plans and Elevations, more review - Revisions, more review - Working Drawings with Details. Is it different the way you do it? BTW - facebook is not my website - it is a personal place - I do not run my business from it - nor do I advertise my business within it - it is not open to the general public - it is for friends and acquaintances so that we might easily keep in touch. Nowhere there would you see my business name or references to my business..... Linkedin is a different subject all together - that is my networking platform. Your tone in that post John surprised me - or am I reading into it more than just curiosity about my use of green glue? Sincerely, Rod

Rod - I expected you would be surprised by my tone and I am glad you have responded with a full run down of your projects and your experience. I have been observing your posts for some years now and I have never understood where you were coming from as I couldn't , for the life of me, find any record of your work on the net apart from the two studios I quoted. When you approached me years ago to illustrate your new book I searched the net for some evidence of your experience yet couldn't find any which is one of the reasons why I declined. The book eventually came out and has been well received yet I still haven't been able to find any record of your experience. :? Thank you for filling me in. It gives me, and the members of this forum, a better understanding of how you have the ability to cover all the topics of studio design and construction so well. cheers john

John Sayers wrote:

Rod - I expected you would be surprised by my tone and I am glad you have responded with a full run down of your projects and your experience. I have been observing your posts for some years now and I have never understood where you were coming from as I couldn't , for the life of me, find any record of your work on the net apart from the two studios I quoted. When you approached me years ago to illustrate your new book I searched the net for some evidence of your experience yet couldn't find any which is one of the reasons why I declined. The book eventually came out and has been well received yet I still haven't been able to find any record of your experience. :? Thank you for filling me in. It gives me, and the members of this forum, a better understanding of how you have the ability to cover all the topics of studio design and construction so well. cheers john

John, These are some projects of mine: http://www.cceda.net/convention_center.html http://www.cceda.net/projects/hartford_ ... ntown.html http://www.cceda.net/projects/front_street.html The 3 above are all part of one huge project - 750 million....... my role was in house engineer for the developer - I headed up the design effort and reviewed the designs as they came in from the various firms for code compliance, construct-ability, and to make certain the designs were the most cost effective manner in attacking the project....... I also provided on the spot fixes for design issues that crept up along the way - helped develop the memorandum of understanding between the state and developers for the joint operation of a chilled water and steam generation plant to handle the entire facility - controlled the design of that facility - assisted in the start-up and developed numerous financial models to determine whether of not the facility even made sense......... in my spare time I assisted in the negotiations for contracts with the Construction Managers, de-scoped the various bidders for that to make certain they were all on the same page, reviewed the contracts they wished to sign for the subcontractors on the project - was the point man dealing with the State Building Official and State Fire Marshall and provided the noise analysis and isolation design for the exterior walls at the guest levels to keep the noise form the multiple lanes of highway from entering the hotel guest rooms. Picture the convergence of 3 major highways all taking place within 100' of the building - with entrance ramps even closer.... And then the reflection off the face of the glass walled high rise directly on the west side of the hotel - which had a clear view of the highways from both north and south of the hotel.......... The next one was an expansion of a national museum located on the submarine base located in Groton CT....... for this I headed up the design team working for the Construction Manager - reporting directly to the Non-Profit group that was funding the expansion. In order to make this happen I ended up writing the specifications for all architectural and engineering disciplines with the exceptions of civil and structural - I also did the architectural detailing....... I designed the roof drainage systems, the radon systems and was liaison to NACFAC (Naval Facilities Engineering Command) In my spare time I oversaw the construction to verify conformance with the contract documents - bought out the project and wrote all of the subcontracts. http://www.ussnautilus.org/aboutus.shtml?museumNautilus My role on the Hotel below was the same as with the Convention Center: http://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/g ... l-and-spa/ That's the same firm who own the Marriott Downtown Hartford. Although I was only with them for 15 years (1992 to 2007) I worked with the Principles since 1985 - and worked on the development of a number of their facilities - including the Comfort Inn Mystic - which we built in 3 months 5 days - (Pulled Permit March 20th 1987 received the CO and opened the hotel to guests on June 25th 1997). During my 15 years with this group they received 6 awards (for excellence in construction) for 6 of my projects. 5 at a state level - 1 at a national level. At Sonalysts it was Power Station and Stage 15: That's Steven Spielberg's set for the courtroom scenes in Amistad inside of Stage 15........ With AISC there was this: http://www.aisc.org/newsdetail.aspx?id=11480 That's the competition they invited me to be a jury member on and this: http://www.modernsteel.com/Uploads/Issu ... ervais.pdf This is the article on Studio H in Adobo Magazine (page 86) http://issuu.com/adobomagazine/docs/0308 Just the other day Dark Pines Studio made Mix Magazines Class of 2010 Photo Gallery, http://mixonline.com/photogallery/class ... dex20.html Now - this long winded post is only for one reason - to show you that I am not an unknown commodity........ nor am I full of Bul****t. I am actually very well known in numerous fields - but I run below radar....... and because i am not just working in the field of acoustics I really don't have time or the energy to build up that one aspect of my work. I don't need to be above it - in fact with my health problems the last few years I have had a hard time keeping up with what's on my plate. As far as the book goes - it was never my intention to write it to begin with. My publishers (Thompson signed my contract - but subsequently sold out to Cengage) approached me on this to inquire if I would be willing to author the book...... Although I wanted to be published one day (probably after retirement) I always envisioned it being in the area of design build and construction management....... for a major publisher to approach me was both a surprise and a blessing....... People who have never been published do not usually get book deals sight unseen - but it paid off - now they contact me every couple of months to find out when I'll sign a deal on my next book. The book has actually been quite well received - it's now in more than 150 University Libraries world wide........ OK - sorry for being so long winded - but I really want you to understand what I am about - never thought about it before today. You're an excellent designer- I would never question your methods of design - and have even gone out of my way to recommend your work. You have your way of getting it done - I have my way......... Sincerely, Rod

Thanks for that Rod - very enlightening. You can go back behind the curtain now :) cheers john

John Sayers wrote:

Thanks for that Rod - very enlightening. You can go back behind the curtain now :) cheers john

LOL......... thanks John......... Have a great day - and if you want I will delete those posts - Take Care Rod

If you can't afford green glue-you certainly can't afford to spend money doing something that will never help you - Rod Very true.l Thank you both. I am going to use this SSP Iso. Tape Green 1/8" thick (1-7/16" x 100') Roll. It is a lot cheaper and SHOULD be better than nothing. I got it here. http://shop3.mailordercentral.com/super ... 2745-143-1 I am using it on the studs for the first layer. I did not expect to use it on the second layer but it should help. Unless that little space it provides ruins the mass effect of two layers of drywall. Your thoughts on this would be interesting. The two layers bare pressed up against each other or the dampening tape in between? Thank you.

The foam tape is intuitive, but doesn't translate into much help, I'm afraid. The small spring it attempts to create is largely negated by the screws run through it when securing the drywall. If you could accomplish real decoupling by converting the single 2x4 stud wall to staggered 2x5 wall, you'd really be accomplishing something.

zagnuzer wrote:

[u]I am going to use this SSP Iso. Tape Green 1/8" thick (1-7/16" x 100') Roll. It is a lot cheaper and SHOULD be better than nothing. I got it here.

You are heading into uncharted waters. The use of line bridges as you are suggesting and point bridges, was researched by Ben Sharp and published in WR 73-5. It is detailed section 2.3, starting on pdf page 44. I get the feeling that you are not into doing the design work involved and are more into tinkering. Tinkering is not advised in acoustics unless you can afford to it wrong and then rebuild. :) Andre

Paul, an issue with ll this i that acoustics is not really intuitive - even though something seems like it might work - you never really know whether it will or not unless you actually have it tested......... If it was as simple as just applying the thought process, the industry (and by "industry" I mean efforts in the construction industry - funded jointly by insulation manufacturers, drywall manufacturers, steel stud manufacturers, etc., etc., etc) would not have invested the millions of dollars they have to reasearch and test wall assembllies, floor assemblies, doors, windows, Duct Silencers, MLV, Green Glue, etc., etc., ad nauseam If you are not going to stick with what is tried and true - then you take the risk of having it not work... No one here can advise you on something they have no knowledge of...... Decent isolation requires mass - an air space - more mass and decoupled structures.... It is not cheap and is very difficult if not impossible to obtain on a shoe-string budget.. rod

Very many thanks to you all. There is a lot of good info here. It is not easy to communicate the uniqueness of my situation. Just enough to say that I am definitely in uncharted waters. I agree with all of your advice and under different circumstances would be able to apply it all word for word. Unfortunately, things are where they are for me. I can only use the materials and resources I have access to. I now have no expectations other than attenuation to some degree . You all have been very kind with your time and expertise with my situation. This forum truly is an engine of creation and has been a great help. When I get the funds I will get a meter and do a before and after test and post the results. Something has to be better than nothing (hopefully). Thank you all. Paul Luckey.

Paul, you might consider decoupling the framing, rather than rely on a thin foam. http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/lib ... struction/

Ted, Thank you very much. I believe this is my best shot. I can afford some "inside the box" space to make this happen. Thank you for the detailed link. I have already put two layers of drywall with the foam tape on the studs and in between the two layers. From all the info on this site I can tell I will certainly need this other layer on the inside. Paul

zagnuzer wrote:

I have already put two layers of drywall with the foam tape on the studs and in between the two layers. From all the info on this site I can tell I will certainly need this other layer on the inside.

Does the bolded section (bolding by me) mean you have stud/drywall/foamtape/drywall? If it does, you have just spent time and money to make the isolation worse. Perhaps you have more money than you think. Andre

I missed that Andre. Triple leaf?

Ted White wrote:

I missed that Andre. Triple leaf?

The writer's construction is not clear. Triple leaf assuming a leaf on the other side of the stud. If there is no fits leaf, then the tape between the stud /drywall is a waste of money. Regardless, the thin tape between the leafs create a MAM right in the voice range. This is for a vocal booth. This second tape is ignoring Ingaard's research indicating small MAMs are actually worse than equivalent leafs of the same mass. Andre

All right. Let me give you the low down. I have an apt. bedroom. In that bedroom is my box that I have started building. I have the frame built inside this room. There is 12" of space between 2 sides of the box and their corresponding two of the 4 bedroom walls. These two walls are windows looking outside. The 3rd wall of the box is 6'7" from the bedroom wall with neighbors on the other side. This space is where I will put my bed. The 4th wall of the box is 3' from the 4th wall of the bedroom which has another bedroom on it's the other side of my apt.. Mom's room. The top of my box is 2'1" from the ceiling of my bedroom with neighbors beyond it. I put the foam tape on the outside of the studs. Then drywall layer 1. Then more foam tape (instead of green glue) then 2nd layer of drywall. Then I am going to seal the inside with some non hardening silicone sealant. Then I am planning some insulation. That 's where I was going to stop and cover with fabric for the inside out wall. Then I read all your feedback and deduced that I needed another layer of mass so I was going to put another single layer wall of plywood up which would be what I see when sitting in completed box. I've heard of Triple Leaf but was not sure if the bedroom would become the third leaf because of the distances all around. I was following the attachment procedure of 5a from here viewtopic.php?t=598 using the foam tape instead of GG Thank you. Paul

Then drywall layer 1. Then more foam tape (instead of green glue) then 2nd layer of drywall.

There's your problem. As André said, the MSM resonant frequency of that construction will be very high, easily up in the voice range, so the wall will NOT isolate well at all. Most likely even ordinary speech will be clearly audible through the wall. The "more foam tape instead of green glue" is your mistake. If I were you, I'd take off that second layer of drywall, take off the tape, then put the drywall back again, directly on top of the first layer of drywall, with nothing in between (no glue, caulk, foam, carpet, whatever... nothing). That will improve the isolation hugely. If you don't do that, the wall will be pretty lousy at isolating. One more question: What thickness drywall are you using? 1/2" or 5/8"? Or something else? - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

If I were you, I'd take off that second layer of drywall, take off the tape, then put the drywall back again, directly on top of the first layer of drywall, with nothing in between (no glue, caulk, foam, carpet, whatever... nothing). That will improve the isolation hugely. - Stuart -

Agree 100%

Ted White wrote:

Soundman2020 wrote:

If I were you, I'd take off that second layer of drywall, take off the tape, then put the drywall back again, directly on top of the first layer of drywall, with nothing in between (no glue, caulk, foam, carpet, whatever... nothing). That will improve the isolation hugely. - Stuart -

Agree 100%

+1 to the 100% of Stuart's advice. Andre

Wow. Backwards I go. I will take off the 2nd layer of tape. The drywall is 5/8". Thank you all. Paul