LET THE FUN BEGIN - NEW STUDIO CONSTRUCTION - EUROPE

OK, looks like I will be more or less dependent on the mercy of this forum members to achieve best possible acoustic results in my new studio :) For the introduction, here are some photos of the house construction which took place last year. Hope you will enjoy this thread/process as much as I will :yahoo:

More photos....

Quick 3D ideas for the studio design

Here is the plan with true measures of the studio space. I would like to have a nice control room with flush mounted (main) monitors. The idea so far is to have solid walls in the front half of the room with bass traps on the sides. Back side with more bass traps and nice RPGs in the center. Maybe lifted floor for the back side for more bass trapping. The recording room doesn't need to be treated for drums as I plan to record them elsewhere. The only loud source will be speaker cabinets for blasting guitars. Rough sketch. I will make ASAP more detailed drawings of the studio idea so you can add detailed comment (hopefully). :D

Just to let you know, I am reading as fast as I can all threads to grasp the science about building the studio. Going nuts already :shock: Here is a very important question to start with. Since my floor has heating system in it I can't make a real room inside a room. Now since the floor will probably carry some % of the sound from one room to another, what is the best/cheapest way to separate these two rooms? Should I still go with double or even triple layers of gypsum boards on each side, and trying to make a room inside a room or is this a waste of money?

I think the first thing, in respect to your design, you should do is read up on how a dome or a concave wall will focus sound. While this might seem like a good thing, in the mix seat it will tarnish everything you do and lead to poor mixing decisions. What you hear in the left ear you will also hear, due to this focusing of sound, in the right ear and depending on how far the difference is from one wall to the other side, the sound can be just as loud as what you hear in the left ear. And vice versa. So you can understand how this would be a detrimental decision as it pertains to a control room that often requires strict attention to keeping the image in the left monitor, in the left monitor. ;)

Thanks for the warning. Can you give me a link maybe where this is explained or discussed?

The search routine was recently upgraded, but if that doesn't work, then you can always google it.

Alton Everest: Master Handbook of Acoustics (4th Edition) Page 238; "Plane sound waves impinging on a concave irregularity tend to be focused if the size of the irregularity is >larger< compared to the wavelength of the sound." (Less than and greater than symbols mine) Brien

Back side with more bass traps and nice RPGs in the center.

Your room doesn't seem to be big enough for diffusers to be able to work, so maybe RPG's on the back wall would not be a good idea.

The idea so far is to have solid walls in the front half of the room with bass traps on the sides.

Bass traps are far more effective in corners than on walls. I'd save your side walls for slot resonators, absorption, or whatever else is needed after you measure the basic empty room.

Maybe lifted floor for the back side for more bass trapping.

Once again, bass trapping would be more affective in the wall/floor corner ABOVE the floor, than in a resonant cavity below it: How would you tune that cavity, anyway?

The recording room doesn't need to be treated for drums as I plan to record them elsewhere. The only loud source will be speaker cabinets for blasting guitars.

"Blasted guitars" can be every bit as loud as a drum kit. Just in different areas of the spectrum. When you say "guitars", does that include bass guitar?

Since my floor has heating system in it I can't make a real room inside a room.

Well, you could disconnect that system, perhaps.

Should I still go with double or even triple layers of gypsum boards on each side,

Hang on a bit! You just said that you CANNOT put up any new walls since you have underfloor heating, yet now you are asking about putting up walls! I don't get it. Are you planning to put up walls in side that space, or not? Also, what is going to be in that unused space to the right of the CR? And how are you going to isolate the CR from that space if you cannot build walls in there? Finally, what Brien said about concave surfaces focusing sound is a big issue. I don't think you'd be able to mix at all well in a room like that. Just my $ 0.02, for what it's worth. - Stuart -

Hehe, here we go. I had a feeling in my guts that it was not so good decision to hire my friend to do the design, after all. It already got more than a few negative question marks on some of the ideas. OK, lets just cancel this idea and start from the top :yahoo: Stuart, to address some of the issues. Yes, I can build the new walls :D You probably misunderstood me. I just can't make a floated floor due to heating coming from the floor and I can't drill into the floor to avoid damaging the heating lines, but I am sure we can glue the wooden frames to the cement, right? Maybe I should rephrase my question. Can I still make good separation of the two rooms without the floating floor?

When you say "guitars", does that include bass guitar?

Probably sometimes.

Bass traps are far more effective in corners than on walls. I'd save your side walls for slot resonators, absorption, or whatever else is needed after you measure the basic empty room.

I meant in the side corners, my bad. English is not my native language. I will post ASAP new ideas from the top.

Once again, bass trapping would be more affective in the wall/floor corner ABOVE the floor, than in a resonant cavity below it: How would you tune that cavity, anyway?

This was my friends idea. He mentioned to make a labyrinth underneath. Maybe throw some car tires in there for spring effect (to avoid resonation) :roll:

Also, what is going to be in that unused space to the right of the CR?

It's my small office kinda room for soldering my DIY gear and so on. Not really planned to use it for recording.

OK, to me it looks like you need to start again, with a basic definition of what you are planning to achieve, your goals, how loud you are, how quite you need to be, your budget, your equipment, what kind of music you mix / master, what formats, etc. It looks like you have a bit of a mish-mash of concepts and ideas all mixed up at once. For example, on that floor plan there is a blue circle in the middle that looks suspiciously like the IEEE layout for a 5.1 room, yet you only show two speakers. Why is that? Is this a stereo room, or a 5.1 room? You also show acoustic treatment that is not appropriate for a room that size, and no treatment that is appropriate (maybe that was going to be designed at a later stage?) There is also no isolation at all show, so I guess that means it doesn't matter how loud you are! Nobody will complain. It also means that you don't mind noise coming into your room, such as vacuum cleaner, dogs barking, rain, thunder, cars, trucks, aircraft, people talking, etc. In the photos there are bunches of electrical conduit poking out of the floor in various places, but those aren't marked on the plan. What are those for, and where are they exactly on the plan? What is that little tiny room at the bottom.right of the diagram? Bathroom? Storage? Something else? the photos also show that the walls seem to be partly brick and partly drywall. Or is that brick veneer stuck to drywall? Or is it drywall over brick? Maybe you could give a more detailed description of what you actually have right now, and what you want to do, so that folks here can help out with a better design. - Stuart -

Thank you Stuart for the thumbs up. :D The drawing you saw was done by my friend (who will not be hired) to do the design after all. It's hard to speak in his name why he choose such design. I lost my trust in his ideas. Anyway, let me explain more about my desires/needs. I mix mostly loud bands (new metal) Here is a song from one of the last albums I did LINK It will tell you more of my production level. I plan to make also folk recording, new age, what ever comes across, but I am known more as a metal producer. I always mix at moderate levels, occasionally with more loud levels just to check if it kicks right. I expect I will crank the main monitors (Event Opal) soffit mounted more often than my nearfield Twins. Until now I never had a proper treated room where I could do this with pleasure. As you could notice the house construction is made from wood skeleton, sheep wool for insulation... IMO such construction doesn't bounce back the sound as much as the normal brick wall, right? The question here is how much sound is transfered to the floor above where we have a living room. The inner side of all external walls in studio area are all closed with OSB boards. On top of OSB boards I put two layers of 1.25cm gypsum boards (no space in between). Someone suggested that this would reduce the sound going in or out through my external walls. The ceiling in the studio area is made from 24cm hi rafters, closed with OSB boards from underneath. I also put two layers of gypsum boards underneath the OSB boards (no space in between) The space between rafters is filled with dense rockwool to the top (24cm). On top of that we put 5cm wood floor, on top comes the plastic thing with floor heating lines, plus around 7cm of cement. Just to give you an idea from what the ceiling is made above the studio. The inside walls are filled with bricks for better thermal accumulation in the house. These are 14cm thick heavier type bricks with holes in them. On the other side of my studio I closed the walls with gypsum, no insulation used. The smaller room next to the recording room is my office and DIY place. I do a lot of DIY gear for my studio. Love it. :D Budget is kinda limited for the next few months at least. Around 6k€. I hope I can pull this off with this budget at least to the degree that I can start recording and mixing even if it is not 100% perfect yet. I worked before in rooms which were really badly treated and still got nice results so I am used to this. We can fine tune the rooms later if the budget goes over the limit. Please have in mind that things cost differently in different countries and I plan to do most of the work on my own. I would like to keep the sound as much as possible in the control room without breaking the valet. I need my wife upstairs to love my work and not to become my enemy every time I start to mixing the drums :shot: BTW, I will not record the drums in my studio. I hire bigger studios for this. If I forgot to give more information please tell me.

Well, that is a good start for a basic description. I'm downloading your song now, but I think I get the picture: LOUD! There is something that is worrying me here, about the construction techniques that you described for the walls that you have around the room right now. I hope I just misunderstood you, because if I didn't then I think I have some bad news for you... Three important questions about your walls? 1) Are you saying that the walls in your studio that go to the outside of the house, at present, consist of wood framing with some kind of siding on the outside, then an air gap filled with wool, then a layer of OSB, then 2 layers of 12.5 mm drywall? Is that correct? (This is the top and right walls on your diagram). 2) And with regard to the walls on your studio that are NOT outside walls (only go to other rooms), consist of wood framing with a full brick-and-mortar wall on one side, then an air gap filled with nothing at all, then a single layer of 12.5mm drywall? Is that correct? (This is the bottom and left walls on your diagram) 3) With regard to the ceiling above your room, are you saying that there is a living room above you, that the living room floor consists of some kind of sub floor resting on 10 inch (24 cm) joists, then an empty air gap with no insulation, then a layer of OSB, then two layers of 12.5mm drywall? Is that correct? It is important to get accurate answers here, since you are going to need fairly good isolation, and if things are the way I think they are, then you won't get good isolation like that... - Stuart -

Let me draw the walls for you. I'll be back :snack:

OK! Another question: ALSO: Can that area be changed? Is it possible to move walls, or move the doors? - Stuart -

That room leads outside to the garden area behind the house. The walls are made/fixed, so is the door cavity. This was my initial rough idea for the studio. Here is the drawing of the outside walls. Tech. info on the external wooden fiber boards http://www.hofatex.eu/en/products/hofafest-ud

More questions: AND ALSO: 1) What is the ceiling height (From the bare concrete floor to the BOTTOM EDGE of the 24cm joist above)? 2) What are the dimensions of the two windows on the outside walls? (The diageam onlsy shows the width, not the height, nor the elevation above floor level. - Stuart -

This was my initial rough idea for the studio.

That actually makes MUCH more sense than the other one! :shock: I'd suggest that you use that design as the basis. It doesn't need too much tweaking, I think. - Stuart -

OK, will give you the info in a second. For now here is the ceiling cut.

Here is the drawing of the outside walls.

Ouch! That's what I suspected. So I do have some bad news for you: the OSB and the two layers of drywall will probably have to come off the inside, for a couple of reasons: 1) You already have a two-leaf wall there, so if you build a third leaf (the new inner wall) you will create a three-leaf system, which is a bad idea: You will lose isolation in the low end of the spectrum (kick, toms, bass, etc. going out. And thunder, cars, trucks, planes, etc. coming in.) 2) 12.5mm drywall isn't thick enough. You should always use 15mm (or 16mm if you can get it). There are good acoustical reasons for not using thin materials in studio construction. 3) Even if you would have used 15mm drywall on that wall originally, it still would be no good, since the two-leaves on that existing wall are fully coupled: Poor isolation. That's the bad news. The good news is that you seem to have some pretty decent mass in the outer siding already: That "wood fiber insulation board" isn't as dense as drywall (in fact, it is only about half as dense), but it is thick! You have 8cm of "stuff" out there, for your outer leaf, with a surface density of at least 16 kg/m2, which is already roughly equivalent to two layers of 15 mm drywall. So you probably don't need to beef up that outer leaf. You can just take off the OSB and drywall, and leave the exposed studs/wool, then build a new frame a couple of cm away, for your inner leaf, and put two layers of 15mm drywall on that. - Stuart -

Hope it makes sense...

Hope it makes sense...

OK, great, but I also need the LENGTH of each of those walls, not just the THICKNESS that you gave me. - Stuart -

Hight of the room is 2.71m (just measured again)