Need feedback on very small studio design in Loft. Thanks!

I'm planning to build a small electronic (dance) studio in my place, i have nobody below me and brick walls on either side, i don't hear my neighbours. The only problem is upstairs, i have two cranky lawyers who complain about everyone around them (even complained to the building about me using my washing machine after 11pm!) so i make music only during the day, usually cutting off at 5pm. Also my girlfriend comes home then and it's not really fair to consume our entire loft with the same loop when she wants to watch tv. So, with the space i have available to me, i would like to build a small control room to block out the outside sound and make is possible to record after five and on my girlfriends days off. i plan on a double leaf room within a room. I don't plan on recording any artists here. I have mackie hr824's so i don't think flush mounting is the right idea for me, they have their amps built in the back and are quite bassy already. I have read nothing concise on this but i would rather try it without first (rather than spend the money only to find it's not optimal) My contractor is a rock musician and has experience in soundproofing. My question is really just to throw this small room design out there and get some feedback as i begin. The front and back wall are parallel, should i move the back wall so it's slightly off? Will simple wood boxes with insulation work as side treatment? i was planning on studiotips superchunk for the corners (framed insulation with fabric covering essentially) The door will have to have some treatment on the back, you can see the treatment overlaps the door frame As for height i have not decided yet, i have some room to play with and want to know if angling it up away from the control room, or "stepping" it up is beneficial i took a screen shot as a photo and its 900x620 - i dont know how to reduce it but it seems to fit quite easily, hope it's ok Any feedback or questions will be welcomed here's the pic and the downloadable sketch up file Thank you! Max Graham

I just walked back to where i have a set up now, my speakers appear to be closer to 90 degrees, would that be better for this small space? i currently have them drawn in at 60... thanks again

I just read that it needs to be fully symmetrical from front to mix position. Here's an update, i created a new post rather than update the first one so you can see my mistakes. Might prompt more discussion thanks

revision 3, this is with the speakers flush mounted, the heat issue (which can be dealt with) might be outweighed by the lack of space and building the room so it's symmetrical but not parallel in front AND i think i got the pic dimensions right this time! Again and feedback or discussion about dealing with such a small space would be great

try this maxgraham

Thanks John Max

Are these new walls just insulation behind fabric? or wood that will have treatment on them later? thanks max

insulation behind cloth walls - in a room that small you need lottsa absorption Max.

I see, you basically moved the front wall to create a space that, with the new angles, is now symmetrical. The space has no parallel walls behind the angled insulation. Can i summarise what you did so i can better understand? - Moved front wall to match the angle of the side walls, to create a symmetrical mix space. - This in turn leaves the back wall with no match which is a good thing as waves won't bounce directly back to the front. - Created Various angled cloth/insulation pieces that match each other - There is Parallel however from the front wall to the insulation of the back wall - Most side to side angles are close to parallel with regards to the Insulation For the insulation, the angles you have drawn will we 1x1 wood frame with as much insulation behind it? i have included a pic of how i saw someone else do it to see if that's what i'm going for. If so i'll draw up more detailed plans Also i can't seem to find housebuilder for sketch up 7 free version, i downloaded a the plug in but it's not showing up under the draw menu (which i believe is where it's supposed to be) maybe i'm missing something. Here's a link to a site i'm sure you've seen before, and the type of treatment they used. http://www.helixrecording.com/Helix_Construction8.html thanks again

Here's revision six, i've laid out what i think is the correct frame type (2"x1" and 2"x2" i'm guessing) for the insulation. I've seen a lot of how to's regarding traps and insulation but not really any that address "off angles" and "slivers" like i have in this design, specifically the one by the door, it seems after framing that it's about 4" on the wide side down to nothing on the narrow side. What the best way to address this? I'm really learning as i go and i really appreciate the feedback. When my contractor arrives in a few weeks i really want to be 100% prepared. Thanks Max

Max - is the outer leaf fixed and built and set in place - i.e door entry, front window etc.

At the moment no, The brick wall on the left side is the only wall currently there, there's a bathroom storage area of about two feet deep behind the back wall (that can be removed to give the studio more depth if absolutely necessary) and a wood support beam a foot away from the right wall that cannot be moved. In front of the studio is ten feet of open space but that leads to french door windows that open into the loft and provide the light and air, while there are two other sets of windows on the same wall, i want all three windows open onto the loft as they provide significant light and i have to balance how much space the studio would take up, hence the small design. i will be the only one in the studio 95% of the time so having a little bunker is ok for me. here's an overhead shot of my space

John here's a sketchup file of the layout of my place, you'll see my constraints in 3d! :)

Your room is still not symmetrical?

It is now, the post two posts above yours with the pic is just the first idea of where the studio would go, not the design itself. John asked if had built my walls yet and from that i gathered that he would like to see how open the space is so i sent one of the first idea sketches to show the surrounding area. here is where i am at at the moment, which is symmetrical from front wall to mix position. But this may change given Johns latest questions.

here's your design to scale relative to your layout. note all the parts are made up of groups!!

Wow thank you. Is that one entire cloth covered back wall filled with insulation? so essentially starting from the outside it would be 6 inch gap insulation framed by 2x4 double drywall then more insulation framed by a 2x1 and covered with cloth? A question with regard to the windows, if they are placed as before (previous layout), they are now no longer parallel (as the two front walls are no longer parallel), so can both windows now be horizontal to each other i assume if they are not parallel then they don't need to be angled from each other horizontally. But maybe the inside one would benefit to be angled down to avoid standing waves within the room? Also i see you have it at 12' high, the 12' ceiling is the base of the floor above, but there are 1.5' beams coming down from there, so i have 10.5 feet of airspace. Should the double ceiling then be starting at 7' (5 inch wall, 6 inch airspace, 5 inch wall) making the roof to the studio end at approx 8.5 feet, leaving another 2 feet to the beams and 3.5 feet to the bottom of the floor above? Should the ceiling inside the studio be angled or "stepped" up from front wall to back wall? I noticed you have dropped the second wall that bordered the brick wall, This is not an outside wall as i have a neighbour on that side. They have never complained but if i turn it up in the future (with my new room) will using the brick wall as the outside studio wall not potentially give me problems? previously i had the brick neighbour dividing wall, then two double leaf walls (brick - 3 inch gap - 5 inch double leaf - six inch gap - 5 inch double leaf) essentially creating an outside room that only touches the floor, then an independent room inside that. i'll draw up a horizontal profile with options for the roof and i'll see if you lot approve :) thank you again

Here's my guess for the angle of the roof leaves, this leaves me enough room to move around (i'm 6' and the ceiling will be seven) plus plenty more dead air between the outside leaf and the floor of the neighbours above. But which Shape is better? i've seen so many designs of studios but the ceiling seems to vary in all of them thank you.

John i just noticed that the outside of the back wall is 9'8" on the latest plan you sent. but in our earlier back and forths it was 12'. in the dimensions i sent you last night, the space i marked (which you used for your latest revision to me) was just a rough idea of where the studio "could" go in the loft but the exact dimensions were not yet set. I assumed when you asked if the outer leaf has been built that you wanted to see a clean slate, i should have left the 9'8" line out of it completely as it seems we've reduced the size of the studio by a couple of feet I apologize, i thought you might come up with an even better idea and i should have been more clear than the earlier 12foot back wall is viable. here's your last update, with the floor lines of the previous, earlier updates. Knowing your whiz with sketch up maybe you can just move the groups to fit the larger space. If not i totally understand, i've taken up enough of your time. now where's that donate button!

max - i just took the height from the height of your columns _ i have no idea of the ceiling structure as you didn't show it anywhere. I'm trying to guide you not give you a free completed plan :)

Haha i realise that, I spoke in the first post (as per the rules) about the ceiling height and the possible roof of the outer leaf. but i do tend to type a lot so it might have been missed. I thought maybe you had a reason for that, like in such a small space that a high ceiling would be good to help dissipate the sound for example. I just thought maybe you had a reason. Sorry if it seemed like i was "expecting" something :)

But which Shape is better? i've seen so many designs of studios but the ceiling seems to vary in all of them

I'd go with #2! The angled ceiling helps with both flutter echo and your reflection free zone. The ideal angle is 12 degrees, and it looks like you have plenty of height to do that, from your comments to john. Also, try to make your ceiling as high as you can get it! More height is better, acoustically. (Of course, make sure that you don't end up with lousy dimensions or a bad ratio). As long as you have at least 4 inches of air gap at the closest point between your ceiling an the floor above, you should be OK. If you can spare the space, go for 8 inches at the closest point: it will improve your isolation.

6 inch gap insulation framed by 2x4 double drywall then more insulation framed by a 2x1 and covered with cloth?

Partly correct: What it should really be is: - 6 inch gap filled entirely with insulation. (This 6" can include the stud space) - Two layers of 5/8 (15mm) drywall, preferably with Green Glue in between - Acoustic treatment, as necessary (which might or might not include cloth-covered 703 framed with 2x1).

But maybe the inside one would benefit to be angled down to avoid standing waves within the room?

Nope! You do not need to angle your glass for acoustic reasons. That's a myth. You might want to angle it for aesthetic reasons, such as to avoid glare and reflections from you lights, but acoustically there is no advantage at all to angling glass: It just reduces your isolation.

Should the double ceiling then be starting at 7' (5 inch wall, 6 inch airspace, 5 inch wall) making the roof to the studio end at approx 8.5 feet, leaving another 2 feet to the beams and 3.5 feet to the bottom of the floor above?

You don't need 2 feet: 8 inches is probably good enough, unless you have REALLY loud neighbors (or you plan to be a really loud neighbor yourself!).

Should the ceiling inside the studio be angled or "stepped" up from front wall to back wall?

Sloped. See above. Helps deal with flutter and necessary for RFZ.

will using the brick wall as the outside studio wall not potentially give me problems?

Nope! It will REMOVE your problems! See below...

previously i had the brick neighbour dividing wall, then two double leaf walls (brick - 3 inch gap - 5 inch double leaf - six inch gap - 5 inch double leaf) essentially creating an outside room that only touches the floor, then an independent room inside that.

That would have been a three-leaf system: Bad idea! You also seem to be confusing your air gaps and stud spaces: it's the same thing! the space between the studs IS your air gap. so if you have 2x4 studs set two inches away from the brick wall, then you have nearly SIX inches of air gap: the studs space, plus the 2 inches. All 6 iof of those inches are your air gap, and all 6 of those inches should be filled with insulation (mineral wool or fiberglass). But getting back to the point: between you and your neighbors you do NOT want more than two leaves: You want two leaves, and ONLY two leaves. Not one, not three, not more, not less. Two and only two. One leaf is already there (the brick wall) so you only need one additional leaf: A stud frame with a couple of layers of drywall on only ONE side of it. A 3-leaf wall will do much better job of isolating high frequencies than a 2-leaf, but it does a much WORSE job at isolating low frequencies, and a 2-leaf is already really good at isolating highs anyway. So contrary to intuition and Internet myth, a wall with three leaves in it is a bad idea (unless you really know what you are doing).

Here's my guess for the angle of the roof leaves,

You don't need to guess! 12 degrees, at least, is what you need. Also, your walls need to be splayed at least 12 degrees ( 6 degrees per side ), but you already seem to have that right. The exact splay angle depends on your speaker geometry, but you need at least 6 degrees per side.

but i do tend to type a lot

But not as much as me!!!! :shock: :D - Stuart -

unfortunately in the small space he has if he went for 12 degrees he'd have a very tight front with not much room for speakers - I went for 8 degrees. He also can't afford 6" airspace so I went for 2" with 1 x 5/8" drywall inside out and insulation squeezed in between. His air space is the vacant ceiling area.

Wow! It must be pretty tight! I didn't actually look too closely at the dimensions. (That's what I get for not paying attention!) Thinking out loud here: What if he were to move the entire studio back 2 feet, into the "bathroom storage area"? Maybe that would give him a little more space to get bigger air gaps and better angles? - Stuart -

I have a few more questions but i'll save those for my next revision. This whole time i thought there was a six inch completely free air space between two walls (each wall comprising of studs, insulation and two slabs of drywall on only ONE side :) ) - so essentially you would have two sets of insulation staring at each other over a six inch "air only" gap. I thought the whole point of room within a room was to have that air only gap to completely disconnect the walls, but i'm gathering that insulation between them, touching both walls does not count as a connection, is this correct? this new found knowledge will actually gain me more space! a few inches all around. I guess i was going on a few things i've seen like these pics and it had me confused.