new studio build from ground up

finally the wife has relented and i can build a studio in the back garden from the ground up!!!. the new shed i bought not too long ago will be going to a good home and i have someone coming to do the footings and get the rebar mesh laid shortly. luckily i can have a large size building but i will still need shed storage, so the plan is to have a sectioned building, the max size i can have is 9ft by 21ft long, thats more than enough for me. i have looked at the sae plans on the other thread in the forums and i think this one will suit me, but with some changes in the acoustic room i would lose the side door as it wouldnt be needed, the double sliding doors stay. i will do a plan today, im still arranging block deliveries and concrete for the footings and pad. to the right of the control room will be a small shed/workshop area so 3 rooms in a row really. the only thing i want to check on is the roof, i have an option of using shingles or tiles for the roof, i dont mind shingles simply because of the cost and the fact they can be laid and finished in a few hours. will they be ok to use for the roof or ar denser clay or slate tiles preffered? i will get on with the plans now and hopefully have a few pictures up for you this weekend.

question: im thinking of having double block walls/ cavity walls for the building. and then filling hte cavity with insulation. then building an inside out framework inside, with the interior skinned in two sheets of plasterboard, probably 12mm sheet with the rockwool stuffed behind it. with the floor being concrete i was thinking of a floating floor, rockwool inbetween then double skinned with two layers of 8x4 t&g floor boards, i was then going to lay a laminate flooring and place a large thick rug under the console and along the floor. i may have to lose the acoustic room as the wife wants storage as well ( im not rocking the boat just yet!) so this means a larger main room and if i need to record vocals etc i can just make some screens and use my reflexion screen trap and headphones while recording. so i spent the day yesterday trying to get to grips with sketchup, i have a basic idea now, but the framing side is way way beyond me! also i cant find the plugin thats been reffered to in threads that does the framing, its the housebuilder plugin? todays plan is to get the building made in sketchup and uploaded here and a few ideas on layout and see how i can learn to improve it.

ok well im still trying to get to grips with sketchup, i have done a basic shape of my building that i will build, the longer side is for the studio room, the small one is for storage of tools etc. i have done a single skin building for now as i dont know if its best to do single or double block cavity. the door will be a double door, inner and outer and will be custom built heavy doors with sealing strips. i did want to try a framed internal room but i have no idea how to do the framing, even after spending an hour looking for some info on the framing process , theres so many threads with the reference of "framing in"!!! the roof will trussed, im doing those now, and insulated and the roof will be double skinned with marine ply boards, then i have to choose if im going to use shingles or tiles. i do think that a inside out framing would be good here but i have no idea how i go about it, prehaps a tutorial in the stickies? i am meeting a building inspector this week to clarify things with him, the next door neighbours are fine with the build, they are about 25 meters from the build, and wont hear anything to be honest anyway. occasionally i will turn things up, but the max volume would be around 100watts rms, but that would be a rare occurance to be honest, the more likely max volume would be around 40 - 50 watts rms and less while editing/mixing. i have attached a picture and my file, im sure someone can suggest a much better solution and im open to ideas and also info on how to do the framing in sketchup. i had to remove the console, chair and rear sofa beacuse the file size was too large

just curious is there something i have missed out that i need to add to the thread?

pk - this is how I would build it.

thank you for the idea john, i tried to scale it but i didnt get to do it! the big rear panel i never thought of that. with the rear panel would that be a box frame with say 2x3 uprights inside and then the voids filled with rockwool? i was watching a programme on tv last night and saw how they did some soundproofing, everything was as here but they also added a layer of Rigid Insulation Urethane Board (Celotex, Kingspan, Xtratherm equivalent) which was foil backed on both sides, the foil acted as a vapour barrier. so i was thinking of the following. around the room do an inside out frame, then fill the voids with rockwool, i was thinking of the dense packed fibre at 50mm thick, then put a layer of the urethane board, then 2 layers of plasterboard. the floor will be framed, neoprene pads placed down first then sat on those, the voids filled with rockwool again and a layer of the urethane boards then 2 layers of t&g flooring board 8'x4' the ceiling will have the same treatment, a layer of the urethane board, then 2 layers of plasterboard, i will then hang some clouds from the celing. i will try and do a drawing later today to explain it a little better. thanks for the input john it is appreciated, if oyu have a better layout than that im open to suggestions.

i managed to find the housebuilder plugin today so i am currently playing with that, the one shame is the fact i cant enter the dimensions for timber for the framing, the lowest size is 2x4 and i wanted to enter 2x3, is there any way i can add 2x3 to the selection list? also i can double plate the top but not the bottom. one thing i wanted to know, when this design is finished and if its a good layout, does sketchup export the complete lengths of wood required and other information as say a cut list would define? im just curious. im spending an evening on sketchup tonight trying to get better at certain things, but i have to say i love the housebuilder feature, it makes framing so much easier!!!! i have managed to understand groups and components so things are falling into place so to speak. hopefully a better plan from me tonight and im looking forward to further suggestions from you all. thanks

Associated with Housebuilder is a text file in the same folder - you'll find it contains all the timber size options - just edit it.

ok well i have been working with sketchup again today, i needa break tonight as i have spent hours learning it!! i have attached a new file to this post, its just me trying things out john, i did an inside out room with a space between the walls and the gypsum board, the cavities are filled with rockwool, the board i placed on the floor is the urethane board , i did try to do the floor and then two layers of floor t&g 8x4 board but i couldnt do it for some reason and do cut aways. i put a small vocal booth on the end , there is a window there but its not visable, simply because i dont know how to cut the framework away. i plan on spending as much time over the next week learning this and trying new things, once again if i have done things wrong or you can suggest ways to improve my use of sketchup i am all ears, i also tried to do the roof, the pitch is great as it should be, but when i put a board on top of the beams 8'x4' i need it to go from the edge of the roof, to a centrepoint on a beam and i couldnt do that, so once again if someone can explain how i can space manually a beam on the roof it would be great. thanks again for your input john, i dont have an associated file in the folder, i had the housebuilder folder and some .rb files that was it, it took me over an hour and a half to find the plugin for download for some reason!

hi john. i opened the housebuilder rb file and found the 2x4 sections, i do not know what to edit, so im going to change a few things with those sizes and see what i get, hopefully 2x3

copy this file into your housebuilder folder. http://johnlsayers.com/Stuff/housebuilder_sections.txt woops - I'm dealing in metric - but that's the file you need to edit but in imperial.

hi john. i dropped that file in and i made some changes etc but it made no difference, all my sizes start from 2x4, 2x6 and then 2x8, mind you when i measure the wall frames they are 3 1/2" widths not 4". i downloaded a few things from the ruby depot site including a new housebuilder file, i grabbed the metric version which will make things a little easier for me, after installing that one i had much more options of sizes. now all i have to do is change the framing to 50x75 mm that will keep me busy for a while! today im going to try and work on the roof beams and see if i can finish those, also i have to add a centre prop for the roof and take up that space below it either side. i am also going to drop the vocal booth/room, not enough room really for what i want and besides i can make same screens if need be.

i took the vocal room out and although i gain space im still not sure (indecisive git yes i know). a vocal room would be great to have , a larger room that could take a drum kit if needed would also be good, but i just do not have the space. i understand why john and the others ask for so much info and for a person to post details and designs, i just spent almost 30 mins scouring the forums for answers to certain questions, only to find a plethora of threads that have certain things im looking for not described, finished, or discussed properly by the posters. after 30min i got really frustrated so i dont dare hazard a guess at how john and the guys here deal with it every day!!!! i have left the roof alone, and i will concentrate on one thing at a time before i get ahead of myself. i will do two designs today, one with the vocal room and one without, each with inside out framing and sound proofing. if i get the structure and inner details clarified first then i can move onto the roof section. best walk before i run i think! i have got rods book now also so im reading that in the evening. gotta say though sketchup makes things easier to do, but its a pain sometimes when you are laying a stud wall out and you cant see the end point you want, i went to use the cursor keys to move left and they dont do that, i assumed it would be thier function. so i had to drop the wall tool move the window with the hand, a little zoom out and re draw the wall.. hopefully moe time on this will make things a little clearer! john we need a framing 101 from you if you get time! update: ok i spent a while working on the build and im just re-doing all the framing again, simply because i didnt space it for 8x4 boards, so im just going to redo all the framing ...again! i have also been doing some reading up on things and looking for materials to use for the floor prior to putting the floor frame down and packing with rockwool. now the concrete pad will have a dbc sheet under it before its poured, however i still want to protect the wood floor frame so i have found this called flooring rol called acoustalay which has a dpm layer on the underneath, its used for laminates and wood flooring. so the plan is on the concrete pad i can lay down a dpm sheet, then some of this on top making a double layer of dpm on the base, its a bit overkill yes but worth it. here is the link to the product: http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52649/Flo ... y-with-DPM i will have 2 small air vents in the walls so as to let air circulate through the cavity, im a little lucky because the plan for the building will be vetted by a firend of the family who until recently was the head of building control for my area and was the head building inspector, so he is checking everything over before i begin. im glad im learning before i build, this way once the time comes to begin everything is in place, checked , checked and re- checked again.

i have left the roof alone, and i will concentrate on one thing at a time before i get ahead of myself.

Very, very smart move! You are absolutely right: there really is a huge amount of "stuff" that you simply must take into account, and it gets overwhelming if you try to do it all at once. But the good news is that after a while, it all starts falling into place, making sense, and even getting to be a bit logical.

... looking for materials to use for the floor prior to putting the floor frame down and packing with rockwool.

Whoa!!!!! that sounds like you are either building a floating floor, or some kind of (resonant) deck. DANGER! Here be dragons! Red lights flashing! Take a look here before you even think of doing anything like that: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8173

i still want to protect the wood floor frame so i have found this called flooring rol called acoustalay which has a dpm layer on the underneath, its used for laminates and wood flooring.

OK, now I'm confused! That stuff is meant for laminate flooring, which is not floated. so why are you saying that you want to build a "floor frame and pack it with rockwool", but you also want to use plain old laminate flooring on underlay? For the record, your best bet is to lay your laminate flooring (with the underlay) directly on the concrete slab. If you raise any kind of deck-like structure above the slab to put flooring on, then you have created a resonant cavity that will happily hum along with all of the tunes you play in your room.... Unless you make the deck hugely massive and damp it extremely well. If you want to do that, then you'll need a very large budget...

i will have 2 small air vents in the walls so as to let air circulate through the cavity,

Then you won't have good isolation. Both leaves of the MSM system must be sealed airtight to get good isolation. Any break at all in the seal will damage your isolation, since it will affect the properties of the MSM system. Of course, if local code or climate conditions insist that you must have vents, then you must have them, but do be aware that your isolation will be affected. Even a tiny gap makes a large difference. I guess you could try to build some kind of mini-silencers for those vents, but I'm not too sure how you'd go about doing that, or what the outcome would be. - Stuart -

hi stuart, thanks for jumping in also, to get different perspectives on things can only help my planning and learning process. the floor framing i was thinking of a frame ontop of the concrete pad, i didnt know if it was necessary or not, after reading that link i can ascertain it is not needed so wont be used. the dpm membrane in the link is really good stuff for cutting floor noise down, i know its for laminates but its used for other things also, i was linked to it by a friend in london who used it in his small studio set up, i can use some of that then place the 8x4' floor boards down and then lay the flooring covering. i am going to use a small area of wood flooring under the console with the rest being a good thick carpet. the air vents in the walls will be mortar thickness, there are some slip/ slimline vents that can be found now, its just to allow a slight air flow through the cavity, another option is to get some upvc piping and put a few pieces 4" long in between a block and this will do the same thing, its one of the things reccomended to me by my inspector friend, i will grab a link to these vents see what you think. when i do the inside out room im going to put 2 sheets of 12mm gypsum board on the frames, then fill the voids with rockwool, cover with the foil backed/faced urethane board as it also acts as another vapour barrier and then double plasterboard it again. im thinking along the same lines for the celing.

i am going to use a small area of wood flooring under the console with the rest being a good thick carpet.

That's probably a bad idea. Acoustically it is better to have a hard reflective floor and a "soft" (absorbent) ceiling, for several reasons. As you do your research here, I'm sure you'll come across those reasons, so I won't spoil the fun for you! A carpet is probably a bad idea anyway, unless you have detailed acoustic specifications for that specific carpet. Carpets are notorious for being selective: they absorb highs, not lows, and absorb some frequencies much better than others. Unless you know which frequencies your specific carpet affects, and exactly how it affects them, then you have no idea at all what it will do. But most likely it wont be nice! A "good thick carpet" on the floor will more than likely end up making your room sound dull, lifeless, "cavey", or even "boomy". Contrary to internet lore, carpets are not great at helping room acoustics, unless you know what you are doing with them, and chose specific carpets for specific purposes. So most people go for hard floors, either plain concrete, or concrete with laminate flooring laid directly on top, or some other kind of solid flooring. Then put a "soft" (acoustically absorbent) ceiling opposite the carpet, but designed specifically for the purpose.

the air vents in the walls will be mortar thickness, there are some slip/ slimline vents that can be found now, its just to allow a slight air flow through the cavity,

Any air flow at all is too much! Both leaves of your wall should be hermetically sealed, absolutely airtight. If you put any kind of hole at all in it, even a tiny crack, then you compromise isolation. I don't recall reading how much isolation you need for your build, so maybe it's no big deal, but you do need to be aware of that, and if you can build with no vents, then that would be better.

when i do the inside out room im going to put 2 sheets of 12mm gypsum board on the frames,

12mm is too thin! You need 15mm. Once again, this is about the MSM system. Thin drywall has a much higher resonant frequency than thicker drywall, and is less stiff. You need the thicker stuff in order to get good isolation performance out of your wall.

then fill the voids with rockwool, cover with the foil backed/faced urethane board as it also acts as another vapour barrier

"Another vapour barrier"??? I'm not an expert on vapor barriers (xSpace is one of the experts on that), but as far as I know, you only ever want ONE vapor barrier in your wall, never two or more: You should probably check on that! Also, the entire air gap (cavity) between the leaves should be filled with rock wool, or if you can't do all of it, then as much as possible. Not filling the entire cavity will also cost you isolation. The density of the rock wool should be around 48 kg/m3.

im thinking along the same lines for the celing.

It has to be the same way, all around. Walls and ceiling need to be done identically. If not, then one of them will be your weak point, and that weak point defines the performance of the entire build. So for example if you did each leaf of your wall with 2 layers of 15mm drywall, but then only did one layer of drywall on the ceiling, then you wasted a lot of money putting the second layer on the walls, because the isolation of the entire room is limited to what the ceiling does in that case. so whatever you do on the walls, you have to do on the ceiling too. Then you have to do the same for the windows and doors. It's like a chain: only as strong as the weakest link. If you have great doors, walls and ceiling, but only a thin window, then the entire room is no better than the window. Whatever isolation you get from the window is the isolation that the entire room will have. Think of the entire room as a system, not as individual parts. ANYTHING you change in ANY part of the room, affects the entire system. It doesn't affect just the component you changed. Think of it like a fine violin: If you cut an extra hole in the violin body, that doesn't just change how the body sounds in that location: it changes the sound of the entire instrument. The same if you stick a lump of putty on the back of the violin: it changes the entire sound, not just the sound of the back. Or bend the neck to a new angle: ditto. The same happens with your room isolation: the entire room construction is designed to be a tuned MSM system, and if you change any one thing about it then it changes the entire system, re-tunes it, causes it to act differently. The change may or may not be important, but it still changes. So you do need to be consistent right around the entire room, keeping the same surface density all over the walls, doors, windows and ceiling, with the same seal all around, on both leaves, etc. Once hole, anywhere, compromises the entire system. One change in density does the same. Etc. Food for thought! :) - Stuart -

thanks again stuart. ok the foil backed urethane board is a real good isolator, the foil backing just acts like a vapour barrier, but it is used for extra proofing over here, and as i can get it cheaply direct from the manufacturer its not going to cost the earth. the floor is no problem, a nice wood floor will be cheaper for me, so thats the way i will go i can use the acotalay first then apply the flooring on top. The rockwool i have chosen will fill the void cavities in the framing perfectly with no spaces. 15 mm on the gypsum boards is fine, im redoing my plan as we speak ( i think its the 7th time now!) :horse: :lol: :lol: the celing was a given i knew that but its always better to get input rather than assume! ok here is where it stands. 10x24-25' concrete pad 6" deep with grid rebar for structural reinforcement, footings as defined by the inspector. single skin block build using 8" x16" x4" blocks framing from 2"x3" pse with a gap of 50mm from the walls framing inside out boarded with 15mm gypsum using 8x4 sheets 3" rockwool, i will get the specifications this week, for the voids in the framing a layer of kingspan urethane boards then 2 layers face boards of 15mm gypsum again. the ceiling will have 15 gypsum inside out and then filled with rockwool, then a skin of urethane board and gypsum sheets again. hanging from the ceiling will be several clouds and then layout all the absorbers etc. im still on the framing bit! i need to get that right then move on to the next part which is the face wall i will be looking at and building the speaker soffits and traps etc. im not in a rush and i would rather learn than waste time and make a mistake, i will upload the revisions tonight. thanks again guys!

pk - in metric a 3" x 2" is 70mm x 45mm

some good news today!! i have been offered all my rockwool and other insulation for free, and also all my blocks, gypsum board and timber at a discounted price also. wow, to say im happy is an understatement! this week i have to get on with this plan and get things rolling!!!!! i have been looking at some really nice shingles for the roof as they are cheap also some clay tiles on ebay as they are cheap reclaimed tiles. the building will be rendered and then clad with some nice siding, cedar if i can find it, otherwise treated pine stained to a cedar colour. i am dropping the urethane boards, its just going to be double sheets of 15mm gypsum inside out, a good rockwoll inthe voids and then another double skin of gypsum on the inside, the acousaly on the follr with a solid wood flooring. i really want a vocal booth/ drum booth and im working on the wife to let me get rid of the storage and fit a small shed elswhere in the garden for storage. back to sketchup for me!!!

You won't be using fine Welsh slate then? Where in S. Wales are you?

not too far from newport joe. update: i get to have my vocal/drum room ;) a manageable agreement has been reached! with some surreptitious design the back wall of the main control room can have the acoustic treatment, but behind it can be some form of storage for all my tools and spare equipment. i will spend some time tomorrow revising... once again.. and upload the skp file, if prehaps someone could take a look and let me know what you think re, the rear storage then that would be great. thanks.

what is the best grade of rockwool to get for filling in the framing voids and the celing and cloud panels? there are so many types available now, and i need to know what ask for. thanks

had some time out while checking on things and the build was almost called off. i should hopefully finish my plan this week and upload it for scrutinisation hopefully i have learned a little from all the reading i have done! rods book is great and hard to put down once you start reading it! i still have the storage issue to finalise, but the plan is pretty much drawn up now.

redid the layout, once again, im just speaking with the guy whos doing the footings and pad for me and we are setting a firm day and time for getting the work started. i have arranged the layout a little differently now, i can have the acoustic room but i need somewhere for storage, all it needs to store are my tools, the usual drills, saws etc. however im not sure where i can place any cabnets in the room im a little at a loss trying to fix this layout , purely becuase any type of storage will interfere wit hthe room, but its the only way i can get my acoustic room thats big enough for a drum set to be placed in and miked up. i will use some double doors to go in and out, i have access to two sets of doors, so there would be two doors to go through into each room. i will carry on working on the layout plan tonight and uplaod that, but any input on this would be appreciated. a few more details i guess would be good to add. studio uses: programming editing suite, music will be wide ranging from electronic to acoustic and vocal. the programming room will have an argosy dual 15 console with either a yamaha 02r console or mackie d8b console, there will be some a couple of equipment racks in low level argosy spires. monitors will be some alesis monitor ones and some krk's and some focal twins. rear of the room will have to obligitary sofa. the acoustic room will have the multipatch panel in the wall and some fold away stools, a couple of fold away screens and from the celing some drop mounts for overhead drop mic placing. flooring will be a wood flooring more than likely an oak floor, underneath will be the acoustalay shheting with the dpc membrane. the framework is 3"x2" framing with johns inside out wall, two sheets of 15mm on the outerside, stuffed voids with rockwool then another two layers of 15mm gypsum. the celing will be inside out, the cavity above is to be blown in with shredded insulation material (fireproof), then an inside out celing, filled voids then two layers of 15mm gypsum facing. the main door will be custom built and faced with a rockwool stuffed face. entrace will be airlock double doors. for air in and out i found some info on making a silenced channeld air vent/box system, i will have one for in and one for out. to do this i will have the vents in the celing then the silenced channel boxes will sit in the attic cavity and then a inlet/outlet pipe to the roof using a ducted vent for each. so hopefully by tonight i can add these to the plan and upload a revised file.

oh man, im so glad im not rushing into this, just getting the room right is complex enough in itself before the building starts! i have spent some time on the plan, i have left it at this stage simply because i am not sure if the way i have the rooms is feasable or not, i found some sliding doors in the online model site but i couldnt scale them into my design and put a pair of them in the framework. ( i still am learning sketchup!). also the walls are square topped at the moment obviously the apex would have to be built on the sides to bring them to the roof beams. im not prepared to run before i can walk so to speak, so i have left it at this and hopefully get some input from the guys here and layout and if changes are needed. my thoughts: the rooms need to be seperate from themselves, so i cannot tie both rooms timber sections together (i hope im right on this) so they need to be seperated. i have left a 50mm cavity between the 2 layers of 15mm gypsum board and the blockwork, the framing is 50x75, packed with 3" rockwool, the insides then double skinned with 2 layers of 15mm gypsum again. question: on the outside of the frame closest to the wall, could i use 2 layers of 15mm concrete board instead of gypsum? and just have the two layers of gypsum on the inside? would the outer concrete board be better as its more dense? also is there prehaps a better orientation for laying out the rooms? i can only see the rooms the one way as its not something i have done before. i did think about having the room so that im not facing the long way down the room. this would lend to a little storage room again on the end of the building, a 4ft width room would be workable as its just to store tools and bit and pieces in. i have attached the latest revision of the plan. where the two rooms meet i havent boarded the cavities in the angles (mosty because it wouldnt let me make a rectangle and pull it out as a board for some reason) and also because im sure i will need to spereate the room frames anyway. thanks again