A Quirky Room, Suggestions?

I just got this space. It will be for MIXING and RECORDING. (Drums, electric/acoustic guitar, bass, vocals etc.) It is actually an old sauna/bathroom. The first half of the room has woodpaneling (with 10cm rockwool insulation inside) on the sidewalls and ceiling, and the short wall (the one with the door) is coated with ceramic bathroomtiles. The other half has bathroomtiles on all 3 walls, and the ceiling is lowered by 38cm with woodpanels (no insulation, just a few pipes) The floor is a tiled concrete (the kind in shoverrooms) The monitors will be on the far end, facing the wall with the door. Here are my concerns: 1. Should I cover the all of the bathroomtiled walls? I´ll be puttin broadbandabsorbers on the walls, but what about the remaining bare wallsurfaces, what material should I use? 2. The lowered ceiling above the mixingspot... should I just fill it with rockwool, or maybe fill it about halfway and leave an airspace, So that it acts like a "cloud" for bassabsorption? The open end will be sealed with plywood. 3. Basstraps... Superchunks in all four corners? (the one with the door would have hinges.) 4. The placement / size of the broadband absorbers? Id like to have them easily removable so I can use the "bathroom" acoustics in recording if needed. 5. Live end / dead end. Could I leave the woodpaneled end of the room bare with just the corner basstraps? Would this have much effect in monitoring? Hopefully the pics explain enough. Anyone who has suggestions, please throw me a line. Thanks in advance!

Real pictures.

I can post pictures of the actual place if needed.. (its just a hassle to get them out of my phone right now.)

It is going to be a hassle to design this thing and a pain in the ass to build it. Real Pictures.

removed the crappy pics.

"It is going to be a hassle to design this thing and a pain in the ass to build it." All the more rewarding! Im not looking for perfection.. just want to get what I can out of this cheapass room.. My budget should go up to 400-500€, I bet with that and some hard work I can get this room to sound at least semidecent. But thanks for the warning :wink:

"its just a hassle to get them out of my phone right now." Getting pictures out of your phone is going to be the easiest part of this project.

"Getting pictures out of your phone is going to be the easiest part of this project." Trying to scare me, eh? :wink: edit: I´ll have better quality pictures up here today. I´ve also just downloaded the RoomEQ Wizard and looking into ways to get some measurements of the place while I build.

OK, here are the actual photos, that was the easy part... Hope this gives enough information. The room dimensions are in my previous post. My main concern right now is the lowered part of the ceiling... Should I fill the gap with rockwool and place a broadband absorber ( cloud ) on the ceiling above the monitoring area? Would the whole thing act as a lowfrequency absorber? Should I maybe fill it 50% , leave an airspace between the wool and the concrete and seal it off at the opening? Or should I just tear the whole thing down and make a new ceiling? A cloud? The fate of the ceiling is key to the build, as it dictates the size of the corner basstraps and other absorbers that I put on the walls beneath it. Before I know what to do about the ceiling I cant start making the other stuff. By the way, soundproofing the room isn´t necessary and the pipes don´t carry any noise. Any suggestions on other parts of the room are also welcome, especially what to cover those ceramic tiles with..

So here is what I´ve got planned for the monitoring area. Not visible here is that the cavity over the wooden ceiling will be filled up with mineralwool. I understand I´ll have to do something about the ceiling as now I have it bare and opposite the hard floor. Maybe an absorber same as on the walls might do, and without any airgap inside it, Id imagine the 1cm wooden ceilingpanels should let enough bass pass into the 0,5m woolfilled cavity above for bass absorption. Also, any ideas for the surface of the wall and ceiling absorbers? Standard "eggcarton" shaped foam?

I get the impression your a results kinda guy :D Don't like the process! Me too, but why don't you remove all tiles and start with a bare canvas? I'm liking the timbers, but a studio is no place for tiles. :wink:

Thats right, just get 1000kg of wool and a bunch of timber and start slapping it on the walls! :lol: No really, I´d like to have a plan of somekind, that´s why Im here. Funny enough I didn´t even consider removing the tiles, thanks for the suggestion. I´ve never done that but I guess a hammer and a chisel would do the job. Im not a 100% sure what is behind the tiles, but I would guess that the front wall is concrete and the sidewalls are brick ( as you can see on the left of the pic with the basstraps. So now I´ve got rid of the tiles, what next? Im still pretty much where I started and all my questions above still apply, so...

Are you just building one room. Mix and record in one?

Yes, one room but emphasis on the mixing side.. I found this design that might suit my needs: http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm The only exeption I´d make is that the corner basstraps would be superchunks with no wooden slats. I can always add reflecting material afterwards if needed, and the room already has a hard floor and all that wood paneling. Any thoughts on this?

I Agree if its possible lose the tiles. I have been working in a room with tiles turning it into a vox booth and the reflections they give are just a nightmare, Cover em up or remove them altogether, its a bit more work but no extra cost and the end result will prove much more stable, predictable and usable. I also disagree that the rockwool panels which are covered by timber sheets will act as reliable bass traps, to use timber fronts on bass traps requires really serious thought, planning and design. Its usually done for a very very specific reason. Much better to remove the wood panels and leave the rockwool in place then build light frames and cover it all up with fabric as you see so many people doing on the site. This in effect will give you solid broadband trapping in the low end of the frequencies, which in any small room is always whats nessecary. The superchunks in the corners are great, cost effective and reliable. The room looks big enough to be of plenty use for recording to me, just slow down a bit and be sure what you spend your money on will work. Best of luck df :)

Thanks for the input Finn! ( as in Finnish? ) It seems that the tiles are unfortunately done by a professional and are tight as hell.. But if I get a hammerdrill it should be easy. That leaves me with a brickwall that will mostly be covered with broadband absorbers ( see the last sketchup) If you could take a look at the picture of the lowered ceiling above the mixing position, Im really struggling with what to do about it..

I think the tiles may not be as bad as it seems. You have a lot of work yet to do and the tiles are, at least, some mass OVER more mass plus the tiles give lots of reflection. If you are going to do a room in room construction, the tiles are going to be behind a wall anyway. But if you are NOT doing a room in room, then you need to get some accurate measurements of the room acoustics and develop a plan on how to tame this room...if it can be tamed. Removing the ceramic tile is time consuming and the glazing as it cracks and shatters will cut your hands with small lacerations :) Safety GOGGLES [ not glasses] are highly required due to the strong chances of eyeball contact with tile debris. It may be a trade off for you, it may not. Just one man's opinion...

Im not going for a room-in-a room design.. No need for insulation from outside noise. I was thinking also that the tiles wouldn´t matter if they are going to be behind absorbers anyway.. As for using the tiled surfaces for reflection I would guess I wont need that, quite the opposite as it is the mixing end of the room and I need to kill the reflections around my speakers. About those acoustic measurements.. Should I start with an empty room with no absorbers, then measure to find the standing waves of the room and then add absorber-measure-add absorber-measure.. etc. until the frequency response is as linear as possible at mixing position ? I would think that this procedure would help me make the absobers work more specifically for the room?

thegreatindoors wrote:

Im not going for a room-in-a room design.. No need for insulation from outside noise. I was thinking also that the tiles wouldn´t matter if they are going to be behind absorbers anyway.. As for using the tiled surfaces for reflection I would guess I wont need that, quite the opposite as it is the mixing end of the room and I need to kill the reflections around my speakers. About those acoustic measurements.. Should I start with an empty room with no absorbers, then measure to find the standing waves of the room and then add absorber-measure-add absorber-measure.. etc. until the frequency response is as linear as possible at mixing position ? I would think that this procedure would help me make the absobers work more specifically for the room?

The hardness of the tile are going to reflect, that is the way that material is. Even if an acoustic panel is placed in front of the tile and especially if the panel is installed a distance from the tile, the tile is going to reflect...that is for certain. It is one of the reasons why a tiled bathroom has been used for vocals, because of the hard tile surface reflecting and creating a spacious type sound. So in areas that you are wanting to subdue the reflections but do not want to loose the mass you could have sheetrock installed over the tiled surface with glue or a wall type anchor system. As far as taking measurements, I'm not the guy to talk to specifically about that, but as I understand it, to start with the room should be completely empty. But you are not measuring to locate standing waves but more to get an idea of how this room is interacting with your mic/ears based on known criteria. Having this measured frequency information will give others a look at how your room is performing and then suggestions can be recommended on what it is you need to address depending on the accumulation of frequency, etc. It would be better to get some measurements first before you attempt anything else in this room.

So in areas that you are wanting to subdue the reflections but do not want to loose the mass you could have sheetrock installed over the tiled surface with glue or a wall type anchor system. Good advice... why didnt i think of that.. It would be better to get some measurements first before you attempt anything else in this room. Also sound advice ( tee hee !! sound advice !!) No not finish, IRISH...... and proud too...

Hmm... Im liking the sheetrock idea, thanks! Should be easy enough to do with glue, and then I would also have something to hang absorbers onto. So thats my next step, get some sheetrock and glue it on the walls. After that I´ll start with taking the measurements. :) ! Thanks for your comments, I´ll be back after I have some results.. @donal_finn: Kindred souls us Irish and Finns, at least when it comes to the drink!

Please be reminded that I do not know as much about the structures of your rooms as you do. Just me saying "you can do this and you can do that" does not always make it as easy a project as it is to say the words. So plan your work and get more opinions from people closer to your project to ensure you are doing something safe that will not create MORE problems that could develop from a lack of information on my side. I would still take those measurements first.

Ah the ould drink.... :? We do have a kinship of sorts, Finn is my name and I do believe my family were Norse/Finnish way back when, however i am all Irish these days no doubt about it. I have a problem with my fingers and my Doctor insists only people of scandanavian descent get this particular problem. (dypturens contracture where the fingers kind of shrivel up) not very good for a conga player!!! (it helps to drink!!) Always noticed that I have a particular love of Scandanavian folk music too i find it almost emotional! (especially when drinking) Its getting darker and darker, earlier and earlier here in the west of Ireland as the days go by into winter.... and now for some reggae.... www.myspace.com/intinn Live tonight and i am going drinking :D Peace df

Yeah, it´s that time of the year I wonder if the sun even exists :? Have a good one! ...and heres a finnish folk drinking song from the olden days! (a happy one at that! ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT2sGdyBGtU

Yeah, I can relate to the sun not existing alright!! Its 12.25 in the afternoon here, ive just gotten out of bed and already the sun has started to set... The problem is Ireland is not north enough to get frozen at the same time so we just get rain, floods, and more rain. Right back at ya..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj0kyluZZps and just for the hell of it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZtQh5EIgW Bless the work. df