ShortyEdwards ... small basement design modifications

Greetings! I return with a new thread for my quest for a better recording space. I had been heavily considering building new, but in order to do it really right (and why would one build new if he/she were'nt going to do it right?) I determined that it was out of my budget (ya know, kids and all that). If you're at all curious here's the thread where I worked through all that ... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13158 So, I have decided along with your expert help thus far, to embark on modifying my current space to allow for much better mixing and tracking. This will be a hybrid space in which I will record/track drums, guitars, vocals and keyboards. Most likely guitars and bass will be recorded direct - though I'd love to be able to record them live as well. The drums were the main reason for wanting to build new, as I rarely have the proper time to play them in my current space due to sleeping children and when they're awake the impact noise from above. That being said ... this is a good time to describe the current state of affairs in the 'studio'. Dimensions: 11.5'L x 10.5W' x 7'H All walls are sheetrock, over studs 16" on center. Pink fluffy fiberglass behind all sheetrock. Block walls with a inch air gap (for ventilation purposes due to dampness) Floor - concrete, with a subfloor that is a combo vapor barrier with plywood over that. Carpet pad and thick carpet over the whole floor. Ceiling - Sheetrock with cove molding. There is a beam that basically cuts the room in 1/2 (well more like a 1/3). Crawl space - to the left of the listening position and approx 2'x4' opening for access to floor of living rooom above. More later ...

Due to some editing flakiness I'm continuing here with my questions thus far - 1) I would like to know about the floor. I'd like to get rid of the carpet - due to allergies. Is this advisable sound-wise? In such a small space should I be aiming for "dead"? 2) I've been consulting Jeff Coopers book "Building a recording studio" in which he mentions a "sane approach" to modifying a space. Basically furring strips over current sheetrock, then using rockwool, then adding final layer of wall over that. Would tongue and groove wood be okay over this? It would eliminate the sheetrocking (dust!!!) and would be asthetically appealing to me. 3) About the ceiling - I'm considering a cloud over the drums. Or should I consider some other kind of treatment, bearing in mind that my ceilings are already wayyyy low. Edit - Forgot to mention budget considerations - about 2500-3000 U.S. dollars. Perhaps that will be revised once I get into actual estimating of materials. Truth is, this will be stretched out for a while, so that budget is flexible. I have just acquired a sound DB measuring device so I'll get some actual measurements and post them very soon. So as far as my isolation goals I don't know specifically, but a principal goal in this space is to record drums (my playing) at sane levels, and not impact the family too awfully much. I realize that playing in the evening is probably not too likely with the sort of isolation I'll be able to achieve with this approach. If I can keep the majority of impact noise out, and minimize the noises that leak in (water heater, and washing machine and dryer) I'll be more than happy. As well as having a room that is ultimately treated (broadband and perhaps diffusors if that is even advisable in this small space). Thanks for any input on the above questions. I'll be learning sketup so as to post my plans for review. -Doug

please excuse the gentle *bump*

"1) I would like to know about the floor. I'd like to get rid of the carpet - due to allergies. Is this advisable sound-wise? In such a small space should I be aiming for "dead"?" I would take up the carpet and padding from the floor and consider a cloud for the ceiling you mentioned up topic. Maybe adding another layer of sheetrock to the ceiling if it can be determined how weak sonically this ceiling is. You haven't mentioned the doors or windows, have you? These areas need special attention because they are like acoustical holes in the existing boundaries. Good luck

Hello Xspace, No windows. The door is a solid core but certainly not providing even a modest amount of isolation at this point. I had thought about reclaiming an exterior door from our house (previous renovation) but that is now going to be used elsewhere. Is there any benefit to using an exterior insulated aluminum door? Anyone ever do this? The thought was that it would be lighter than a several layer mdf door, but I imagine that alum would be a highly reflective surface so that would have to be addressed. I'll search this forum on that question, in the meantime anyone feel free to chime in. Anyhow, thanks for giving your thoughts re: the floor - my impulse to take it up. -Doug

shortyedwards wrote:

The thought was that it would be lighter than a several layer mdf door...

Unfortunately that's also exactly why it wouldn't work as well. :?

Okay Chris, thanks for the info. Guess I should read up more on doors then!

RD 1994/14: Sound insulation of studio doors: Part 1: Door Blanks RD 1994/15: Sound insulation of studio doors: Part 2: Door seals Reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/19 ... 1994.shtml

Thank you very much Xspace, I do appreciate those links. Reading to do! -Doug

In a related build on the construction forum, Tiltrite says this (I post here because it has me questioning my plan for renovating my studio) ...

I have the cooper book too and just last night re-read the bit about the furring strips with insulation between. Is that a legit idea or is it better to just add the sheetrock? From what I keep reading here, it seems that the furring strips would create a 3rd leaf. Not sure about this so would like to know more.

So, again if anyone wishes to clarify this it would be most helpful. Hope I'm not creating a double posting by posing this question in my thread. Thanks as always, -Doug

I think it has been called that, but I don't think that a typical residential wall is actually mass spring mass in the way we might strive for. In the same respect that a regular concrete block is not a two leaf because it has connections from front to rear and left to right and the air space is broken up at each block. I think there actually has to be no connection between the two panels in order to be at least mass-mass and a contiguous enclosed air cavity between the panels to be a spring. Still, there is an air spring at least at 16 inches on center that can create this effect isn't there? The flanking of the assembly because of the connections might be the answer I am looking for. Good question, good luck

So do you think I could achieve a desirable gain in isolation by merely appling another bit of mass by adding a layer of drywall with judicious amounts of green glue? Or would you recommend 'The Cooper Approach' to coin a phrase? I don't want to cheap it out but no reason to invest in all that material if it isn't justified. Thanks for chiming in xSpace. -Doug

Every doubling of mass gives you a 3Db gain and potentially a 4-5 point increase in the STC rating. It is easy to see how just simply doubling the mass will require more material overall and gives limited increases. Your existing room dimensions are too small to decouple with another framed wall to justify the work involved...unless you are in serious pursuit of isolation:) . Adding mass will only get you so far, but is better then nothing. If you are not prepared to do the work required to establish some form of decoupling of the wall panels (the Insane approach), then based on what the GreenGlueCompany website information presents, their product will add additional performance to a wall like you mention. http://www.greengluecompany.com/upgradi ... gWalls.php "All walls are sheetrock, over studs 16" on center. Pink fluffy fiberglass behind all sheetrock. Block walls with a inch air gap (for ventilation purposes due to dampness)" Do you have a picture of this assembly yet? Is this a basement?

Do you have a picture of this assembly yet? Is this a basement?

Sorry, not yet. I'll get to that. I have to learn all that I can on the acoustic front as well as Sketchup. Phew. Yes, its a basement (and I can't believe I forgot to mention that!). I think the door is going to be my biggest issue/hassle/challenge. Your help and sharing of knowledge is much appreciated and invaluable xSpace. -Doug

Bringing this thread back from the dead ... In negotiations with the missus for more space and there is a possibility of me grabbing some more space in our basement for a drum room. My thought with this is number one to allow me more space in the main room, i'm tripping over myself in there. And to achieve a better sounding space for drum recording, and a better isolated room. My question is : What is the minimum amount of space that I would need to achieve the above? A good sounding room, is an objective thing for sure, but given my very limited space I need to gain as much for as little (real estate wise). The proposed drum room would be adjacent to the current room, and would be square or rectangular. Thanks!

is it a 3 tom set or a 6 tom set :shot:

I'm unsure if that's a serious question or not, sorry. No, its not a huge set.

Then you could go as low as (roughly) 2.5m x 3m. That will allow for mic stands. If you've got a ceiling height of 3.5 or more that would be good to get a big sound.

Thanks Lilith - No my ceilings would only by 7 feet (2.1336 meters). So, no I wouldn't be getting a 'big' sound. The goal would be space, isolation, unfortunately the sound of the room is the last consideration. And apparently, my sound wouldn't be ideal but it certainly would be a step up. I guess, i've sort of answered my own question, with your help. Thanks!