Greenfield home studio Sydney - ballpark costs

Hi [This is my first post. I've never built a studio. I am not a builder. Please be kind.] I have purchased a residential property in Sydney (zoned 2a). The site has an existing 82sqm house on 800sqm of gently sloping land. I want to build a modest home studio on the land - effectively a greenfield project, with some caveats. I need a sanity check. Ideally, the studio will comprise a control room (approx 4.8m wide x 6m long x 3m high internal) and a modest live room (approx 4m wide x 4.5m long x 3.5m high). The studio will be attached to a yet-to-be-built house extension. I intend to track everything including drums in the live room at odd hours. The nearest neighbours (external brick wall of their house) will be ~5m away from the live room external wall so I will require enough isolation so that they cannot hear the drums - at all, ever. The live room and the neighbour are separated by two metal fences with a public pathway running in between. [I do not have council DA approval for any of this yet. It is not a "commercial" facility. It is private.] I have a budget of AUD$80-100k to construct the studio, including materials, structural, MEP, HVAC, fixtures, finishes, but excluding architecture and design. I will not require any internal traps or other treatment - I will be using a new treatment that I can't talk about which allows me to just construct rectangular rooms and flat ceilings. Ideally I'd like to construct the shell using an external 20cm concrete wall, an air/wool gap, and an internal stud wall with suitable layers in order to achieve the isolation requirements. Am I dreaming? If I'm dreaming, what might be a ballpark cost to achieve the above? Thanks Richard

Hai Richard, and welcome at JLS :) Overall; seems like a plan. Dunno about your "acoustics" tho... why they are secret? I'd be careful with that. If you have the luxury (and money) to build a studio from scratch and planning on concrete walls, I wouldn't take any "unknown", "untested" or "secret" paths. Use proven methods and your dream will be reality ;)

Hi Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I can't talk about the acoustic treatment 'cause I've signed an NDA. I don't mean to be rude. I take your point. I'm off to LA to listen to some studios that have been treated this way. Then I'll have to decide... Wrt budget, does anyone have an Aussie perspective? I will need to hire local builders. Wrt isolation, is it feasible to achieve the isolation I described with the rough approach I mentioned? Or will I need a much more heavy duty build? Thanks Richard

John's'n Aussie, I'm sure he could fill you in :)

Love.......... These ones! Hey Mr. Super Secret Squirrel Super dooper Agent of Acoustic Design. Dude..... If you have signed a NDA agreement and have a budget ranging 100$K what the heck do you need our help for..... CPU choices..... God I hate this shit with half assed Q & A. So what are you using ....... Ahh..... Let me guess?..... Some super Visco elastic NASA formula that has now been proven to work in Space and on the Space shuttle or Cassini..... though is so very Hush that every expert and mere mortal here can have no idea! ..... your room size sure sounds small for someone building a Box Control room & Live room with no internal Acoustics.... (RT60 time will = ... Hello, Hello, Hellooooo...!) Man you will want this super secret material when you doing drums at all odd hours and 5 meters from the next residential! 800/SQM - and a 85/SQM - PRIVATE STUDIO.........? But Hey - We all need..... well....., a little help even as [b]"The Acoustic Secret Service can't beat Sayers Forum Advice"[/b] (Oh yeah!..... PM me the secret material in 6 months will ya! Cheers!http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=13222#

Hi I just have a couple of sanity check questions about: 1. Ballpark building costs - using a builder - in Sydney for a shell with basic finishes, minus the acoustic treatment. 2. Whether I will need a more substantial shell in order to deal with isolation issues. I indicated that this is my first post. If this is the wrong forum or wrong site to ask a couple of questions about building a studio, or there is some unwritten rule that I have broken, then tell me and I'll go somewhere else. Thanks Richard

Ok Richard...... Sorry My Bad! Yes..... 80-100$K will get you that size, though you should be able to go bigger the 80/sqm, and I would say that if you build correctly and only need A room to perform in & control room plus bath or chill-out or even a second booth, reverb chamber, and a million other things plus using the MSM technique most favoured here on the sayers forum you will do well. This secret acoustic material is a very hard scenario to quantise when factoring in exactly what you are doing! I would start by going to the Building/Design forums & Stickies "Lou's control room build sounds like your style" and start the research prior to loading up with builders. - Really more information is required, we don't need the exact specs of your acoustic detail though we need something or NO one will help you out here as it's like saying how long is a piece of string...... yeah! ..... Ok Sorry if you were offended. best Sorry - Re your questions YES* YES* and .......... Well ......... Yeah!******** that sum will do what you ask. It's a house or half a 2 story house in outer suburbs W.A/S.A though I'm in Sydney ADDA.

arcane wrote:

Thanks for the reply! Sorry, I can't talk about the acoustic treatment 'cause I've signed an NDA. I don't mean to be rude. I take your point. I'm off to LA to listen to some studios that have been treated this way. Then I'll have to decide...

Now, let's talk about your home studio a bit. These are some rather unique studio walls, aren't they? Yes, most side-wall reflections are only ray-traced to 10. These are ray-traced to 11. Oh, so is this that Hanson Hsu "Delta-H ZR Acoustics" thing, then? Don't touch it! Don't touch it. I wasn't gonna-- I wasn't gonna touch it. No, don't touch it. I was just pointing at it. I... Well, don't point even. It can't... Don't even point? No, it can't be heard. Never, I mean, I can't... Can I look at it? No. Don't look at it? No, you've seen enough of that one...

Hi Thanks for the reply ADDA, very helpful and no offense taken! Sorry I didn't post more info. I appreciate that you guys see a lot of posts that can't be answered, and that no doubt I come across as a complete twit. So thanks!! Yep, I'm talking to DH. I want to hear ZR before deciding on an approach. Thanks again Richard

great post chrisrnps :thu: :D

"in order to achieve the isolation requirements." What are the isolation requirements? Have you worked out some numbers yet?

Hey Richard, I'm up on the Gold Coast where most materials are probably cheaper, and I'm still struggling to get "ground up" extension like yours costed out under $100k. That's with me doing most of the work myself. There might be some economies of scale if it's part of a larger project, but you should sit down one night with a few beers and a spreadsheet to work it out. http://www.buybuildingsupplies.com.au/ is pretty representative of building material costs in NSW. Complete isolation at 5 metres sounds pretty ambitious. Concrete walls are a good start, but what kind of roof will you use to match that for isolation?

Hi Thanks guys for the info. I will check out the site and do the spreadsheet. I might need a fair few beers (esp. afterwards ;-)). These are back of the envelope first guesses for shell isolation/TL. Shoot me down in flames: 1. Assume the drummer (or bass gtr) achieves 130 dB peak SPL at 30Hz, 50 Hz and 1KHz and is close to the inner wall of the imaginary live room 2. Threshold of human hearing is ~50 db SPL @ 30 Hz, ~45 dB SPL @ 50 Hz and 0 dB SPL @ 1KHz (using ISO 226:2003 equal loudness curve) 3. So total silence immediately outside the studio can (theoretically) be achieved with 80 dB TL @ 30Hz, 85 dB TL @50Hz and 130 dB TL @1KHz 4. Assume grumpy neighbour is 5m away from external studio wall and doesn't want to hear kick/bass at midnight, but can sleep with 30 dbA noise without calling the police 5. 30 dBA at 30 Hz is ~75 dB SPL, so 55 dB TL @ 30 Hz may be adequate 6. 30 dBA at 50 Hz is ~65 dB SPL, so 65 dB TL @ 50Hz may be adequate 7. 30 dBA at 1KHz is 30 dB SPL, so 100 dB TL @ 1KHz will be required Does that sound about right? Thanks Richard

Hi I'm starting with the isolation walls. I've had a look at the various TL papers at http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/ such as http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/ctus/13_e.html (Controlling Sound Transmission through Concrete Block Walls). This latter paper includes a section on a MAM (MSM?) concrete block/glass fibre batts/gypsum-RC two-leaf system, including a TL/spectrum graph. The TL characteristics of this approach in the range 63Hz - 125 Hz seem particularly poor due to system resonances and gap size. I've read the books by Newell etc. These tend to suggest that it is possible to achieve significantly better wall TL at low frequencies using: - 200mm concrete blocks, plastered on both sides (getting plastered, now there's an idea!) - An inner/outer leaf gap of >100mm with appropriate density mineral wool or other spring - A different material/thickness of inner wall: mineral wool-packed stud wall with multiple gypsum layers - No contact between inner and outer walls Does anyone have other references they can point me to that might provide example wall TL figures at low frequencies for more substantial two-leaf wall systems (e.g. concrete/mineral wool/packed stud-multi-gypsum, or concrete/mineral wool/concrete)? STC is not much value at these frequencies. I'm just trying to understand what is possible versus what is realistic. Thanks very much folks Richard

Richard, All that is on this forum. Really. If you wanna learn, read the stickies. You'll understand why STC is not very usable in studio builds and what the difference between MAM and MSM is. Yes, you need two leaves which are not connected. But it's all here on the forum. Take the time and learn. Btw, Rod's book is an excellent resource too. Good build needs good planning! Best of luck, Ro.

I second this Richard, I think if you start to reading through some of the stickies & building diary's of past (previously suggested) then you'll get a much better idea of what is possible in what "you" are exactly looking to build in you back yard. Re: the building of your - "Building" I would also hazard a guess at saying while you are not building a "Commercial Facility" as such & more so a "Private Facility" here in Australia (Sydney) I would not be looking at telling the council or looking for any DA's for a commercial/Private at present, as a great many people get by just having an "A-Grade Private Studio" here in Sydney though actually calling it an - adjunct in facilitation to their "Production Company works" (Hey the neighbours might want to borrow a cup of sugar, though they only go to the front door right?... With me....? ) Frank Sartor (He will be back) may have fired Massive Rockets out of a small "BB Gun" making all Sydney Council's very nervous regarding Any Project's being built on to existing structures & councils will not favour you over many others - so ........ Caution at the present I'd suggest. Private = Non Commercial = Production Company maybe more in Video prior to needs at present. Just hang your VHS, (Old U-Matic A/B roll ), DVD Player/recorder, Camera and Monitor out to dry if people poke around. I know it's a very Sydney, NSW thing to say; though something to beware of at this stage until you are solid on an idea and require a specific Development Application If required at all - The NSW Government zoning Laws & respective Councils are almost changing daily to population requirements & traffic corridors: If Frank becomes Premier you might find yourself free to build your Studio in your Neighbours backyard! - (near me are you? Land size is about right!) Lol ...! Besthttp://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/p ... d&t=13222# ADDA

hey, what happened to that Pirate avator, Adda?

Arrrggggghh! Ro! The Mrs asked me to shave my Beard....... What can a Man do? Can't live on Air alone ...... well possibly on this forum....... nearly! Lol! (no Air debates please...!) ADDAhttp://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/p ... 1&t=13222#

Hi all Once again, thanks for responding to my newbie questions with patience and insight. I am slowly but surely reading through the excellent material on the site and elsewhere, and compiling a spreadsheet with all sorts of info. I'm also using SketchUp. I will refrain from wasting your time asking studio design 101 questions. Sorry about that, it's taken me a while to understand the role/tone/etiquette of the forums. You guys should get medals for helping us out. BTW Rod's book is way cool. ADDA - the property is in Bot@ny B@y Council. Where abouts are you? Hang on, who's that with the measuring tape in the backyard? :-) Fantastic advice re: waiting before approaching council - thank you!!! I'm worried about the DA process - the potential duration, cost and rejection. But I wonder how I could build a relatively biggish/heavy structure (attached or not to the existing house) without DA or any one noticing. Ok, I'll shut up now. Regards Richard

arcane wrote:

Does anyone have other references they can point me to that might provide example wall TL figures at low frequencies for more substantial two-leaf wall systems (e.g. concrel the links te/mineral wool/packed stud-multi-gypsum, or concrete/mineral wool/concrete)? STC is not much value at these frequencies. I'm just trying to understand what is possible versus what is realistic. Thanks very much folks Richard

Some of my bookmarks gathered over the years: Sound Transmission stuff Stc,nrc,cac, etc At some point all these links come back here, so hopefully using my site as a reference will not be considered as pilfering :)

Fantastic advice re: waiting before approaching council - thank you!!! I'm worried about the DA process - the potential duration, cost and rejection. But I wonder how I could build a relatively biggish/heavy structure (attached or not to the existing house) without DA or any one noticing.

Richard, I would say with the political state of play (Sorry others) this is your Best option just Prior to the D.A approval process. (If you actually need one.) Richard, how's Mum, not to good huh? sorry to here, Oh? Needs a bit of help huh? Big Old House, Kids, out or on the way? Yurt, Granny Flat, Double Garage, 2nd Flat, Tool shed, Industrial, & all out the back etc Man.... What you do with it (Your Land) at present is Nobody's business and better to build then play neighbours then play neighbours and build - Got me? Ok... So...... You can do whatever the heck you want at present, though you can also change your mind at the last minute "Subterfuge", maybe, though Sartor started it..... not you or I! And Richard, just as I live on the lower N*h Sh*r*, so where you & I both Live is a new corridor for a Est: 1-3 Million people! Sartor wanted the people in High Density, well your going to give it to him! Though the Serious second you mention Noise, Sound, Studio then..... those Council SPL Meters come bounding out if opposition occurs, right now you can build anything re: New zoning laws. After all Richard, doesn't your leg Hurt when you commute, so you must work at home! Go Stealth to the Council & sit in on a DA meeting and see the hoards who really want 10 Story Rises in our "Heritage Houses" ... yeah... Ok ... then check the petitions to STOP those, though let yours through! you could always demolish & build a 3 story to block out everyone's sunshine. So let's rest that one for the moment as your pretty safe.

Ok, I'll shut up now.

No Richard... you seem to want as much advice as possible, I even think I know what your super Acoustic solution is, sorry - I'll stay quiet. (Even if wrong) or PM if right! Richard go to the CSR/Boral website and hunt down one of their 2000 page Boral Build and/or CSR PDF manuals regarding building with Boral and/or CSR products and the various techniques, here you will find a certain chapter around 500 pages on MSM and Building Acoustically as well as building double brick, Single, Colour-Bond and all the assorted, google the link and you will find it Of course all (With their products) like SoundChek and the like using steel, wood, various & different sheeting, Single, Double, Triple leaf and estimated TL & STL requirements for those alongside 10,000 other sundry products in their catalogue all related to building. Some people go with one Builder/Contractor who grabs and sources"ALL" his materials from 10 differing places adding anywhere from 10% to 25% each trip & that eats money like a Fat dude and a Burger! If you can go with One supplier and get near 90% of everything, almost like a package or project house, you will be way ahead.... more so as you have the access to the Super Secret Squirrel Acoustic material. (Although I concur that being the first to use such products may not be in your best interests unless they are coming gratis, and even then what will be done that can not be undone? Do you understand the line of thought here?) They even site JLS's favoured "Hindley Trapping Technique" giving you an almost rudimentary understanding of how they all vibrate in sympathy with each-other for both industrial & believe it or not Home Theatre........... use (maybe John wrote that part for them). Also check out the various companies competing, if you know where to look their are industrial products now in Australia we only dreamed Europe had 5 years ago. This PDF I've sited is (was) one massive big old bugger! It's a great read, though heady, unless they have released a new PDF, I got through it in early 2008 Just before joining JLS here (I poked around for 6 months here as a guest!) I unfortunately don't have that Boral/CSR PDF anymore, so it will be a search..... though my guess is they are so lazy it will be updated & lumped in together as it used to be with everything else they make. The product range is huge, and if your using a great deal of serious timber, say Pine, it's almost cheaper to pick your own from an Oberon plantation these days and have it milled, that's what their grown for! Lunge forward Richard & grab these companies by the balls, as once they know your going to build, you'll most likely end up getting your own Product specialist from them. I'll see if I can track it down, though the PDF might be to big to load here, if not it might make a great resource for all building Studios in Australia. Best, ADDA

Thanks xSpace! Thanks ADDA! I'm checking all this out. Richard

Hi Richard. Welcome!

These are back of the envelope first guesses for shell isolation/TL. Shoot me down in flames: 1. Assume the drummer (or bass gtr) achieves 130 dB peak SPL at 30Hz, 50 Hz and 1KHz and is close to the inner wall of the imaginary live room

Wow! That is SOME drummer you have! And SOME drum kit! I've measured plenty of drummers at 110 dB(c), many at 115, a few at 118, and a very small handful at 120. How you get ten times more energy out of a drum kit than that (and ONLY in the 30 Hz band!), is beyond me (not even if you hired Lou's gorilla and a few of his friends....) I think all your skins would be shredded long before you got there. But let's assume you have kevlar skins, and super-tough brass, for argument's sake: So, if your drum kit is putting out 130 dB SPL in the 30 Hz band alone (A weighting or C weighting, or flat, or whatever else you like: there's little difference at those levels), then the total sound energy output is going to be somewhat greater than that. Let's say 135 dB for argument's sake: That is already beyond the threshold of pain. So not only is your drummer doing an amazing job of making the most noise ever recorded from a drum kit, he is suffering painfully in order to do it, and will be stone deaf in roughly 23 seconds (or rather "seriously and irreversibly hearing impaired".) At 132 dB you can actually feel your own eardrum flexing. At 137 db, all frequencies are physically painful to the human ear. 130 dB is roughly the level you get out of a huge stack of speakers at a rock concert, measured one meter away. Also roughly the same level produced by a 747 at full take-off thrust, measured 20 m away. I'm really not sure how you get that kind of energy out of a drum kit! That's just my way of saying that I think you are over-estimating the output of your drummer, by an order of magnitude! :) I totally doubt that you will ever get more than 125 dB out of your drum kit, and that would just be the instantaneous level as you hit all the surfaces you can reach at once, such as smashing the kick, snare, crash and ride, as hard as you possibly can, all at the exact same instant. (Maybe you could gain an extra half dB or so by also smashing your face into one tom, and your elbow into another tom.... :) ) Anyway, your average levels are more likely to be 115 dB, perhaps peaking around 120 if you have Lou's gorilla on your payroll. So you'd probably want to redefine your top level to something more like 120 dB SPL (C) measured one meter from the drum kit with the crazy gorilla beating it to hell.

2. Threshold of human hearing is ~50 db SPL @ 30 Hz, ~45 dB SPL @ 50 Hz and 0 dB SPL @ 1KHz (using ISO 226:2003 equal loudness curve)

No, actually the threshold of human hearing is 0 dB SPL, which corresponds to a pressure variation of 0.00002244 Pascals. Normal atmospheric pressure is about 100,000 Pascals, so 0 dB SPL is a very, very small pressure variation, but it is still audible. It makes your ear drum move about one third the diameter of a hydrogen atom, believe it or not, yet we can actually still hear that, under the right conditions: It's pretty hard to find "the right conditions", though! However, if you sit quietly in an anechoic chamber for about 20 minutes or so, you can get there. You actually start to hear the sound of your own blood pumping through your own veins, if your ears are in decent shape. Then you can hear sound at 0 dB SPL, if you are lucky. But anyway, the point is that your threshold seems to be off base. 0 dB is the absolute threshold of human hearing, but it would be absurd to use that as your goal. However, 50 dB is also off base. 50-60 dB SPL (C) is about the average background level you'd find in an office, home or maybe a quiet restaurant during the day. 60-70 dB SPL (C) is roughly the level of a normal conversation. 40 dB SPL (C) is a whisper at about one meter. 30 is about as quiet as you can expect to find in nature: the middle of the desert on a calm night, for example. So you'd probably want to revise your goal down to about 45 dB SPL (C), which is roughly the level of a quiet bedroom at night in a quiet neighborhood. And if your goal is to NEVER disturb your neighbor, then you need to aim for a level of 42 dB, measured inside your neighbors house, or maybe 48 dB just outside his window.

So total silence immediately outside the studio can (theoretically) be achieved with 80 dB TL @ 30Hz, 85 dB TL @50Hz and 130 dB TL @1KHz

I'm not sure how you got to those figures, but I don't think it would be easy to build a wall that gives you 130 dB TL at 50 Hz! Maybe several inches of solid lead sheeting would do that. Not sure.... I don't see that as being acheivable by any other means! But fortunately, you don't need to. Your numbers are just off: Way off! Anyway, based on the above, you probably need total isolation of around 70 - 75 dB, as measured on "C" weighting on an average SPL meter, for pink noise. And that is not taking into account any particular frequency band: just the overall measurement of full spectrum pink noise. The isolation level for any specific band would be somewhat LESS than that, obviously. If you want to break it down by 1/3 octave frequency bands then you'd need to do a spectrum analysis of your worst-case scenario (mad gorilla on the drums, crazed orangutan on the bass, rabid baboon on the electric guitar, amps turned up to 11), to come up with the requirements for each frequency band. I'm not sure if you really want or need that, as pink noise is a reasonable substitute, but it would be the way to go if you think you do. So your goal should probably be around 70 to 75 dB TL. Of course that is NOT the same as STC-75. 70 - 75 dB total isolation is doable, but not easy.

The TL characteristics of this approach in the range 63Hz - 125 Hz seem particularly poor due to system resonances and gap size.

Yep. And that's right where your kick drum lives, too! No matter which way you cut it, a two-leaf wall is WORSE than a single-leaf wall at low frequencies. But of course, 2-leaf is still the best possible isolation you can get on a budget. Single leaf is lousy at higher frequencies, compared to 2-leaf, and 3-leaf or 4-leaf is really REALLY bad for low frequencies. Fully decoupled two-leaf MSM is the way to to go. Lots of mass on both leaves, large air gap totally filled with insulation, and everything sealed airtight. That is the only way to do it. Chant that mantra every hour on the hour, five times in a row, until it becomes part of your DNA. Fortunately, your kick is not putting out 120 dB all by itself. So you certainly don't need to block 130 dB for the 50 Hz band alone! (which is what you originally imagined). And you also don't need to block 75 dB just for the 63-125 Hz range. You only need to block much LESS than 75 dB in that band. If you really need to find out how much, then measure your kick all by itself, out in the open air, at one meter, and you'll know how much you need to block in the range 30 to 130 Hz. (or whatever the spectrum of your kick turns out to be....)

- 200mm concrete blocks, plastered on both sides

That's a pretty good start, right there! Fill the blocks with dry sand for improved mass. This will get you a long way towards where you want to go.

An inner/outer leaf gap of >100mm with appropriate density mineral wool or other spring

For your case, I think I'd go to more like 200 mm. Greater air gap is better isolation, and also gives you a lower MSM resonant frequency, which is GOOD!

- A different material/thickness of inner wall: mineral wool-packed stud wall with multiple gypsum layers

Or maybe a second concrete block wall? Or a brick wall? That would do the trick, provided that you can keep the cavity between the walls clean and free from flanking paths (mechanical bridging), such as from dripping mortar, or careless bricklayers leaving rubble behind. You'd need an awful lot of gypsum board layers to match the mass of 200 mm concrete block, so bricks or blocks might be easier, if you really do need such high levels of isolation.

- No contact between inner and outer walls

Goes without saying! Any contact at all will kill your isolation. This is arguably the single most important point of all, for any MSM wall. Any connection means you wasted oodles of money. Second most important point: Airtight. Even the slightest crack means you wasted more oodles of money. So it is feasible to do what you want, and the rule is the same as you'll find all over this board: two-leaves ONLY (never, 1, 3, or 4) lots of mass on both leaves, large air gap between, fully damped with mineral wool / fiberglass, fully decoupled, and hermetically sealed. But that's just walls we are talking about. What do you have in mind for your roof and ceiling? How are you going to maintain that kind of mass in your roof, for example? Maybe construct the building with a flat concrete roof? That would work. Hang a half dozen layers of 5/8 drywall on some really tough beams for the inner leaf ceiling, and you are probably there. Then you have three more issues to consider: Doors, windows, and HVAC: These are all holes in your leaves. A hole in your wall is a Bad Thing. So you'll need to build all these with the same 75 dB goal in mind, if that's the level you really need. Doing doors, windows and HVAC to 75 dB TL is not an easy task. That will take some planning, and some careful construction. And of course, none of the above takes into account the top-secret hush-hush magical treatment that you are (not) talking about. Maybe that will absorb another few hundred dB, all by itself? :) - Stuart -

Hey Richard, these are the PDF files I"m talking about: CSR Building Products/CSR Group. 1st you want to go to http://www.csr.com.au/Corporate/default.asp 2nd you want to go to the design Guides section. http://www.designlink.com.au/resources/filemanager/designguides.aspx?fileIteration=135 Then you want to choose the design guide, I.E the Red Book or Cinema Design Guide Both have great info the the Red book & Cinema design Guides have the most meat. [url]http://www.designlink.com.au/downloads/downloads/w4GYP500_The_Red_Book_2007_5f72.pdf[/url] or http://www.designlink.com.au/downloads/downloads/Cinema%20Wall_baea.pdf And presto - Your Guide is downloaded. Cheers ADDA

xSpace wrote:

Some of my bookmarks gathered over the years: Sound Transmission stuff Stc,nrc,cac, etc At some point all these links come back here, so hopefully using my site as a reference will not be considered as pilfering :)

GREAT! (you the owner of that site? )