Seeking expert advice on whether to build a studio

First of all, this forum is incredible. The information I have already gained has been invaluable in preventing me from making huge mistakes, so THANK YOU! My family is looking to buy a new house, and one of the primary requirements for that house is a space I can use as my studio (yes, my wife is awesome). I thought I knew what that meant, but after visiting this forum, reading a ton of posts, ordering Rod's book, and reading it cover to cover, I'm not sure how to proceed. Here is some important information about my situation:

I would love to build my dream studio, but I simply don't have the skill or the time to do any significant construction, and I can't afford to "do it right" right now I am willing to consider doing some construction (or more likely, hire someone), but I'd like to keep materials and labor cost below $10,000, if possible I want to be able to mix at ~80db after the rest of the family is asleep, so I don't disturb them or my neighbors (but it doesn't need to be *silent* within the house!) Nothing I do will be louder than my mixing (no live drums, guitars/bass are direct, so I only mic acoustic instruments/vocals) It's not that important to keep out transient external sounds during recording (i.e. I'm willing to accept that a honking car horn could ruin a take), but I would like my vocal/acoustic guitar recordings to be reasonably quiet

If you're not already laughing at my impossible situation, read on... :) My questions are: 1. Is it possible to find a room in an existing house that satisfies these needs without requiring construction? Again, it does not have to be silent for those in the house...just not loud enough to jar them awake (I know, I know...that's extremely subjective...sorry). 1a. If so, what should I be looking for? Physical isolation? Certain wall/floor/ceiling construction? Ground floor vs. second floor? Garage? 1b. If not, how much would I have to reduce my mixing level to make this possible? 2. What's the best way to test isolation in houses I visit? I plan to buy a sound level meter, but what should I use as my sound source? I'm assuming that if I want to simulate mixing at ~80db, I should find something portable that can output sound at that volume, covering the same frequency range (~35Hz-20kHz). I have portable computer speakers (Logitech Z4, 40W Total RMS Power) that output in that frequency range...will those suffice? 3. If a second floor room above a garage had better-than-average isolation in the walls and ceiling (let's say RC-1), and the doors were solid core and airtight, and the other bedrooms were on the same floor, would the weak link be flanking transmission? 3a. If so, how bad is it, and would that mean I shouldn't even consider a second floor studio if the bedrooms are also on the second floor? 4. If a garage is my best option, and the doors are the typical rolling steel doors, and I don't need garage door access, what's the best way to make those doors massive (to act as the outer mass in the Mass-Air-Mass design)? 5. Can an acoustically decent control room be assembled in a room with 8-foot ceilings? In this case, "decent" means that I don't have to keep going back to my car to check levels...I certainly don't need world-class. I think that's plenty for now. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer, and please let me know if I need to provide additional information before you can help me. Noah

Noah - your best bet is to find a room in the house that is yours, for music production! Try to make it as far away from the kids as possible. Your only option, without building room within room type stuff, is to absorb as much of the sound as you can where you make it. So line your place with quality (48) insulation. What it absorbs won't get to the kids. BUT! YOU, will end up will a dull lifeless room. so use glass, my slots, picture frames, timber veneer, whatever!! to restore the life.

John, Thanks for your response! Okay, so there are no dumb questions, right? Well, I'm going to try a few... :)

John Sayers wrote:

So line your place with quality (48) insulation

1. What is 48 insulation? 2. What do you mean by "line your place"? Are you saying I should just put insulation over my existing walls, with as much coverage as possible? I have a bunch of fabric-wrapped rockwool, which I was planning to use as room treatment...is that along the lines of what you were thinking? In one of the houses we saw (which is otherwise perfect for us), there are two large rooms above the garage (17x20 and 11x20, adjacent to each other. Those rooms exit to a large hallway (about 8 feet wide), and the kids rooms are at the other side of that hallway. In addition to what you're recommending, if I identify the doors as the weak spot, and replace them with well-sealed solid core doors, that should help quite a bit, right? And if I then identify the wall construction as the next weakest spot, could I just add some mass to the inside of that wall? Of course, there may be other weak spots that would render those "enhancements" useless, but do I have the right idea? Thanks again... Noah

48 = 48kg/m3 density insulation. Yes - I meant line the place walls and ceiling. But break it up with some slots and reflective surfaces like glass doors etc. I few wall units of cloth wrapped insulation here and there really isn't going to be enough especially in a small room. If you look at Ethan Winer's living room - which is a fairly large room so less treatment is needed yet even he as 20+ traps in the room. Yes - doors can be a problem and sealing them off will make a major difference.

Okay, so now that I have a few ideas, I'm checking out a house this morning that I am considering buying. I will take measurements and come back and do a Sketchup model and post that later today. In the meantime, can anyone else answer the questions from my original post? I know there were a lot, so you certainly don't have to answer them all...just pick your favorite! :D Thanks everyone...

In the meantime, can anyone else answer the questions from my original post?

OK, I'll try!

1. Is it possible to find a room in an existing house that satisfies these needs without requiring construction?

Probably not, unless your family are all very heavy sleepers, or the house is built really tough. 80 dB is pretty loud for normal house construction (stud framing with thin drywall on both sides). You won't get much better than STC-30 out of that, meaning that 80 dB music will still be very audible on the other side of the wall. Even loud talking is audible through that kind of construction. The best way to block sound is with a decoupled mass-air-mass wall, and normal wall construction isn't it!

... what should I be looking for? Physical isolation? Certain wall/floor/ceiling construction? Ground floor vs. second floor? Garage?

Your best bet is ground floor, with a concrete slab floor (not a wooden floor on joists), brick walls, and nothing above you. A garage is great. A basement is good too, if you have plenty of ceiling height. Physical isolation (such as a totally separate garage or large solid shed, a few meters away form the house, and built on a separate slab) would be ideal. Your very worst location would be a room on the second floor, with a wooden floor laid on joists, and bedrooms right next to you. Construction: Brick, concrete, or cement block walls would be great, staggered stud walls would be second best, but most likely you will be stuck with normal 2x4 stud walls with drywall on each side. That's the worst.

1b. If not, how much would I have to reduce my mixing level to make this possible?

You'd need to bring it down to the level of normal speech, which is around the 60 dB range. In an average house, mixing at 60 dB is probably too quiet to mix effectively, since you won't be able to hear the subtle details.

2. What's the best way to test isolation in houses I visit? I plan to buy a sound level meter, but what should I use as my sound source? I'm assuming that if I want to simulate mixing at ~80db, I should find something portable that can output sound at that volume, covering the same frequency range (~35Hz-20kHz). I have portable computer speakers (Logitech Z4, 40W Total RMS Power) that output in that frequency range...will those suffice?

You have the basic idea, but you'll need a full-range speaker, not a cheap computer thingy. Something like a near-field studio monitor would be great, plus maybe a sub-woofer if drums and bass are an important part of your mixes. And 40w is probably not enough to put out a clean 80 dB signal. I'd guess something more like 100W or so for the main, and maybe double that for the sub. You need to be able to produce a full-range signal cleanly. Set your meter to "C" weighting, slow response. You will need to do your measurements at night, since that's the time when your "targets" will be sleeping. Measuring in the day wont tell you much, since the ambient level in daytime is high already. You need to measure at the same time of day that you are most concerned about, which is probably late at night when the ambient noise level is way down. First walk around the house before you turn on your speaker, and measure all over, inside and outside, taking notes of the ambient noise levels in each room. Now go to your future-studio room, and play pink noise through your full-range speaker setup, such that you get a level of greater than 80 dB on your sound level meter, measured about a meter in front of the speaker(s). I'd suggest 86 dB as your reference level, for complex reasons. Then go out of the room, shut all the doors and windows, and walk around the rest of the house again, measuring all over a second time. If you are getting readings of more than about 50 dB or so in the bedrooms (or more than about 10 dB above the ambient level that you measured before, whatever that was) then you have a problem that will need isolation.

3. If a second floor room above a garage had better-than-average isolation in the walls and ceiling (let's say RC-1), and the doors were solid core and airtight, and the other bedrooms were on the same floor, would the weak link be flanking transmission?

Maybe. Maybe not. It all depends on how about a million and forty seven other factors! :) Seriously, it's hard to say without knowing how the place is built. But if the place is all simple 2x4 stud-plus-drywall construction, then it just isn't going to do much for you. I'd guess that, at the very least, you'd need to take off all the drywall on walls and ceiling, install resilient channel across the studs and joists, and put a couple of layers of 5/8 drywall back in again.

3a. If so, how bad is it, and would that mean I shouldn't even consider a second floor studio if the bedrooms are also on the second floor?

Once again, it depends.... If the floor, walls and ceiling are all 10 inch-thick reinforced high-density concrete, then you don't have a problem! Well worth considering, for sure! Brick walls on a concrete slab floor would be good too. But standard stud-and-drywall is no-go.

5. Can an acoustically decent control room be assembled in a room with 8-foot ceilings? In this case, "decent" means that I don't have to keep going back to my car to check levels...I certainly don't need world-class.

Yes. Many folks here have done just that. If you cab get more height, then great! Or you could build inside-out to gain a couple of inches. But 8 foot is doable. - Stuart -

First of all, thank you Stuart for the detailed response. I went back to the house this morning with my near-field monitors (Event 20/20 bas, no subwoofer), and played some drum/bass heavy music at 86db (Radio Shack SPL meter, C-weighting) in what would be the control room. This room sits above the garage, and is separated from the other upstairs bedrooms only by a 12-foot hallway. The walls are simple single-wall construction...5/8" drywall on 2x4 framing. From one of those rooms, the music was completely inaudible. From another room, you could hear the bass, but just barely. From the downstairs, I could only hear the music from one location, and again, just bass, and it was very quiet and muffled. From outside the house, wherever I walked, the music was completely inaudible. Now, I realize there is more ambient noise during the day than at night, but the neighborhood was relatively quiet while I was outside (around 50db with no music playing), and there was nothing else in the "control room" to help absorb any sound. I imagine if I add my room treatments (OC703 or similar) and fill up the space with other absorbent materials, it will only improve the situation. I understand that I won't be able to record a drum kit at full volume in this room, but I was very pleasantly surprised that it was a workable solution for mixing with no modification. To be honest, Stuart's post was pretty discouraging, to the point where we really thought we would have to go back to the drawing board. If my tests today are any indication, I just want you all to know that it's possible to find a place that doesn't require modification to allow you to mix at reasonable (80-85db) levels. I often get the sense from this forum that sound isolation is an all or nothing proposition, and that may be the case for recording amplified bass or death metal drums, but for many like myself, you may not have to go to the trouble of room-within-a-room construction to be able to mix after the kids go to bed... That being said, I still plan to go nuts and build my own studio from the ground up someday...but it's good to know that it can wait. I still plan to upload my 3D model of the rooms above the garage, because I would love everyone's input on room treatments, but I'm in a fight with Sketchup right now... I'll post it as soon as it's good to go. Noah

"you may not have to go to the trouble of room-within-a-room construction to be able to mix after the kids go to bed..." I bought everyone in my house ear muffs and explained to each how to use them. I call it room-go-to-your-room construction ;) Good to see ya, Brien

I call it room-go-to-your-room construction

:lol: : :lol:

From one of those rooms, the music was completely inaudible. From another room, you could hear the bass, but just barely. From the downstairs, I could only hear the music from one location, and again, just bass, and it was very quiet and muffled. From outside the house, wherever I walked, the music was completely inaudible.

That's good news! It seems like you have a good place to start, and you won't need too much isolation after all. However, I should point out a couple of things: 1) You did the test during the day with an ambient level of 50 dB, which is kind of what I would have expected, so its not surprising that you couldn't hear the music. You might be surprised as to how much difference there is between a 50 dB ambient level, and a 35 or 40 dB ambient level, which is more typical of late at night. What you can't hear at all with 50 db background becomes quite noticeable at 40. That's why I suggested that you should test at the same time of day that you plan to be making the most noise, which you said was going to be late at night. 2) You did not use pink noise, and instead used only music, so you were not measuring constant full spectrum energy. In other words, there just wasn't as much energy output as there should have been. The energy content and dynamic range of music varies widely. You'd get very different results playing Chopin and Grateful Dead! That said, I'd say that your preliminary tests do indicate that you seem to have a good place to start with, and that it won't require too much extra isolation. But I would suggest that you repeat the test at night with pink noise, if you want to get a more realistic reading. Or do it again during the day, but with 100 dB reference level instead of 86, which will give you about the same level above the higher ambient threshold. Get someone to "pulse" the pink noise (turn it off and on every few seconds) while you walk around, so that you can discern the difference better. That would be a more realistic daytime test.

I imagine if I add my room treatments (OC703 or similar) and fill up the space with other absorbent materials, it will only improve the situation.

Not really. Isolation and treatment are two different things. Treating a room does not help much to isolate it. If you don't believe me, while you are plying your 86 dB pink noise, place a chunk of 703 right up against the speaker, and measure again... The change will be imperceptible, and barely measurable. It might take a little off the very high end, at best, but it won't reduce the energy level by anything worthwhile. To really convince yourself, add a second piece of 703 in front of the first. There still won't be a worthwhile difference in total level. Absorption does not stop sound getting out of your room. Even if you covered the entire surface area of the room, all the walls, the floor and the ceiling, with 8 inches 703, it would hardly make any difference to the sound transmission to the outside world (not to mention that the room would sound like garbage if you did that!). You need an awfully thick piece of 703 to totally stop 86 dB of pink noise! So I wouldn't count on the acoustic treatment of your room making any appreciable difference to the isolation. I'm not trying to discourage you, really! I'm just pointing out the simple physics of sound energy. - Stuart -

Stuart, thanks again for the clarification...I know that wishful thinking was a factor as I listened this morning. :D I completed the Sketchup model of the rooms above the garage: I am leaning heavily toward GIK Acoustics for room treatments, since I am just a bit too lazy to build traps myself. If anyone has recommendations for room treatment to make the control room sound niiice, let me know! And if you want to go crazy and add to my Sketchup model, I will buy you coffee the next time you're in San Diego... Sketchup model wouldn't attach to this post, so I'll put it in the next one... Thanks, Noah

As promised, here is the Sketchup model (as a zip file, because it was a bit too big, even after purging unused...)