Chantelar Studio Build

This is what I'm telling my contractors, tell me if I'm wrong on any of these revisions (I've highlighted some areas that I still have questions from you guys on): I'm glad we were able to stop the order of the MLV and Quiet Floor. I've been in contact with some studio designers and they've let me know of some issues in my design... basically, there are a lot of myths associated with products that are available and sales men that will make design recommendations in order to get you to buy them... when in reality they are more expensive than other/better options. So here's the plan, they said we can make the following changes and SAVE money that we were going to spend including the labor to re-do some things. Corrections - -Our wall sole plates are touching. They are bumped into the concrete wall in the live room and they are against the existing walls' sole plates in the control room... that ruins our isolation. We have to bring them out to where they don't touch the wall behind them. Two inches of separation is suggested. We also need to make sure there are three lines of acoustical sealant underneath the full length of each plate where they met the floor (one down the center line and one close to each edge.). - They also indicated that we are waisting wood (money) by having a staggered wall inside the concrete. A normally studded wall there would have been fine because its not coupled with two sides of sheet rock. We should also make all of your framing 24" on center. - The recommendation for the live room concrete walls is to attached minereal fiber insulation to the concrete walls, then leave space before the studded wall (traditionally studded is ok, but NON TOUCHING sole plates)... then mineral fiber insulation inside that wall, a layer of 5/8 sheet rock, a layer of "Green Glue", a layer of 5/8" sheet rock, the cotton batting, the burlap. (http://www.greengluecompany.com/) The drywall joints should be staggered, so that no joints line up. All joints should be filled with backer rod, then caulked. The walls without concrete will be 5/8" sheet rock, Green Glue, 5/8" sheet rock, mineral fiber insulation inside the studs, a space (non touching sole plates) then MFInsulation inside the next wall, 5/8" sheet rock, green glue, 5/8" sheet rock, cotton batting, burlap. The drywall joints should be staggered, so that no joints line up. All joints should be filled with backer rod, then caulked. - Now for the existing exterior house walls, I'm trying to get an answer. We can't put sheet rock on the outside of that wall because it's already finished with that foam board and siding. I don't think we can hang sheet rock on the foam board from the inside, so I dont have any answer here yet, I'm trying to get one. Otherwise, it's the same as the other walls without concrete. - The ceiling is harder to describe, but I'll try here... We have to attached sections of 5/8" sheet rock to the subflooring of the floor above inbetween the floor joyces. As much as the floor can safely handle considering PSF and capacities with folks upstairs. Each layer should have green glue between it. Then we build the ceiling off the interior walls that are isolated from the outside walls (room within a room)NOT TOUCHING the floor joyces from the room above. Mineral Fiber insulation will fill the cavity between the floor and our new ceiling. The ceiling will be built just like a the other "inside walls"... insulation, 5/8" sheet rock, green glue, 5/8" sheet rock, cotton batting, burlap.Now, I know we have piping up above the live room, I don't know how to deal with that yet, I imagine it would be hard to add sheetrock sections above it... - The control room ceiling will be the same way, only with the 10 degree sloped ceiling and no piping issues. - The floor we are leaving concrete and adding laminate flooring to.

... then mineral fiber insulation inside that wall, a layer of 5/8 sheet rock, a layer of "Green Glue", a layer of 5/8" sheet rock, the cotton batting, the burlap

I'm not 100% sure here, but I think I'd skip the cotton batting and burlap for now. That's acoustic treatment, not isolation, so I think I'd leave that until the very end, after the room is actually finished, then measure how it is behaving acoustically in order to determine how to treat it. Cotton/burlap might turn out to be a good treatment, but it might not. You won't know for sure until you have the actual structure finished and sealed. So I think I'd be inclined to tell him that you are going to leave that for "stage two", which is the treatment of the finished room.

- Now for the existing exterior house walls, I'm trying to get an answer. We can't put sheet rock on the outside of that wall because it's already finished with that foam board and siding. I don't think we can hang sheet rock on the foam board from the inside, so I dont have any answer here yet, I'm trying to get one. Otherwise, it's the same as the other walls without concrete.

Hmmmm... that's a tough one! You do need to beef up that wall, but the question is how to do it? What kind of "foam board" are you talking about? Can you describe the sequence of layers in that wall, from the siding on inwards?

Now, I know we have piping up above the live room, I don't know how to deal with that yet, I imagine it would be hard to add sheetrock sections above it...

Another tough one! My guess would be to box it in with sheetrock as best possible. It will be three-leaves if there is an air gap inside, sure, but it will only be a small percentage of the total floor, so I imagine that the effect would be minimal. Just add an extra layer or two of sheetrock around it, so that the extra mass helps to compensate for the reduced transmission loss. But that's just a guess! I'm hoping one of the gurus here can provide better ideas! Congratulations! The rest of your text pretty much covers it perfectly! It looks like you got it all. I hope your contractor gets it too: the way you wrote it is cystal clear to me, but it might not be clear to him. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

- Now for the existing exterior house walls, I'm trying to get an answer. We can't put sheet rock on the outside of that wall because it's already finished with that foam board and siding. I don't think we can hang sheet rock on the foam board from the inside, so I dont have any answer here yet, I'm trying to get one. Otherwise, it's the same as the other walls without concrete.

Hmmmm... that's a tough one! You do need to beef up that wall, but the question is how to do it? What kind of "foam board" are you talking about? Can you describe the sequence of layers in that wall, from the siding on inwards?

I can't really tell. I'll ask the contractors today. I'm sure it's typical construction for an exterior wall but I can't find what that is and don't want to take the wall apart trying to find out. The foam board appears to be connected to the studs and appears to be compressed styrofoam in a tin foil like wrap. It's connected to the studs... don't know what's in front of it, if anything, before the siding.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Now, I know we have piping up above the live room, I don't know how to deal with that yet, I imagine it would be hard to add sheetrock sections above it...

External image, not preserved — original: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download/file.php?id=27382&t=1

Another tough one! My guess would be to box it in with sheetrock as best possible. It will be three-leaves if there is an air gap inside, sure, but it will only be a small percentage of the total floor, so I imagine that the effect would be minimal. Just add an extra layer or two of sheetrock around it, so that the extra mass helps to compensate for the reduced transmission loss. But that's just a guess! I'm hoping one of the gurus here can provide better ideas!

Yes any help on this from any one would be great!

1) Issue #1 - the existing outside walls of the control room I met with the contractor today and the foam board that is in the existing exterior wall is just that - foam board... so we can't attach sheetrock to it. But they think we could attach MLV to it. because we could bend it to the studs and attach it there. or we could the sheet rock on the other side of the wall (but then it's a three leaf system)... IE: the outside wall would be (1) siding/foam board then the insulation in the gap, then (2) sheet rock, then the air gap between the first wall and the new wall - then insulation then (3) sheet rock.... I think that the second option would be easier than trying to put MLV in between the studs in the wall....but how effective? 2) Issue #2 - the piping in the ceiling... we've decided we can drop the ceiling (outside level/1st leaf) to cover the piping and still have room to do the 2nd leaf - ceiling -- A) do I need to have a 2" air gap... right now the plates on the concrete walls are 1/4" away from the wall... is that enough.... enough to not have to tear down the framing? We can furring out the studs so there is a larger gap in the wall, but not the plates (without taking the wall down) We can also take out the extra studs and make it 24" OC. B) The double wall that is in the control room (exterior, existing walls with foam)... those plates are closer together, could we fill the crevice in between them with sealant instead of having to tear down the wall and rebuild? We can furring out these walls too so that we have a bigger gap here too (putting furring strips on the studs to increase the depth). (Behind the yellow insulation is that foam board, behind that is the outside siding) C) Here's the overall question though... we are all set up with a stagger studded wall on a single 2x6 plate.... how would we do that set up? It's not in Rod's book. What are the benefits of doing the double wall in Rod's method (I know it's better) vs the staggered wall? I have to decided now if we are going to tear down what we have and incur more costs...I dont think the cost (which would be labor) will be much, but I want to make an intelligent decision. What is the correct staggered studded wall method, Rod mentions it but doesn't elaborate? D) Also, no one has discussed MLV... if it's no good, why is it still available for sale? There must be a way to work with it? Is it part of the staggered studded wall method?

xpesrx wrote:

1) Issue #1 - the existing outside walls of the control room I met with the contractor today and the foam board that is in the existing exterior wall is just that - foam board... so we can't attach sheetrock to it. But they think we could attach MLV to it. because we could bend it to the studs and attach it there.

Attach layers of drywall in between the studs as described in Rod's book. Your inner leaf bottom plate should not touch the outer leaf bottom plate but very close is OK. The "air gap" is the space between leafs, not framing. You probably won't be able to get the drywall in there without removing some or all of your inner leaf framing. Also, beefing up your outer leaf might not even be worth it if you don't plan to replace or eliminate that existing window. Now that I look at the photo closer, it looks like that inner leaf wall is attached to the floor joists above. Not good for isolation. What are you planning for your ceiling?

xpesrx wrote:

"Can you offer any suggestions as to where we are now?"

I can only offer based on what I am familiar with as it relates to framing of this sort. If I were personally involved in this build, everything that is framed up would be demoed back down. Everything. And there is a simple reason why. You will find it difficult to continue working with either so much directly in your way physically or points in the existing framing that cannot connect properly and require a "bastard" fit to gain access to any continuity. And then the matter of your 2X4 ceiling framing that bridges directly into the existing framing of the building. Anywhere you move, you will either have to hack a piece of wood out of your way or pound another to shore up a poor construction. There is nothing worth putting that much headache into. I wish I could give you a better answer, but there is not one.

I have to second what Brien just said. I framed my studio twice before getting the actual frames where they are now, the first with a partial triple leaf, and the second with a raised wooden floor. Brien convinced me to bite the bullet and pull everything apart, and boy was I glad I listened to him. I managed to salvage almost all my wood, apart from some sills, and sister studs but, it was well worth it. It is so much easier to build and demo anything that needs it. I think it would be more time consuming too try and cut corners oddly enough. It may be a pain in the ass at first, but if your build comes out wrong, you'll realize the extra effort you could have put in, might have saved your studio.

stuntbutt wrote:

xpesrx wrote:

1) Issue #1 - the existing outside walls of the control room I met with the contractor today and the foam board that is in the existing exterior wall is just that - foam board... so we can't attach sheetrock to it. But they think we could attach MLV to it. because we could bend it to the studs and attach it there.

Attach layers of drywall in between the studs as described in Rod's book. Your inner leaf bottom plate should not touch the outer leaf bottom plate but very close is OK.

Can't install drywall inbetween the studs because it would mean attaching to existing foamboard of an exterior wall....that's why I thought of substituting mlv there... We can attach it.... I didn't see in the book where he addressed this? We are going to seal off that ceiling as part of the floor layer and put an isolated ceiling below it that's part of the inner leaf