We had a fire and are rebuilding/upgrading our studio.
Please take a look at our plan (PDF attached) and let me know what you think....
Chantelar Studio Build
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11858.
One main question I have - I'm planning on getting Quiet Floor NP.... but the live room will have carpet... the instructions for installation on the website are for hardwood flooring... do I just put subflooring on top of the furring strips and use it to put the carpet on or can I just put the carpet padding on top of the quiet-floor rubber itself?
The other question I posted before this one (it's own posting)... which is about how to do door jambs for communicating doors so that we don't loose the effects of the layered wall...
xpesrx, Welcome to the wonderful world of learning, I first suggest you read the "Before You Post" Stickie.
It is unfortunate that you have had a fire, that really sux, I'm sorry to hear that.
I am a more familiar with Quiet Walk - usually laid down before gluing or floating hard wood or laminate, with an STC of around 54, I searched for Quiet Floor but didn't find much info - is this similar?
I don't know why you would want carpet flooring in your live room, it holds no acoustic value - isolation or liveliness - which is what I'm assuming you would want for your Live Room, most people use hard wood or laminate
Hey thanks! I appreciate that. It's here: http://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/acous ... _phone.htm I want carpet because it's cheaper than hardwood :) The carpet is $1.72 per square foot; Hardwood is $3.05xpesrx, Welcome to the wonderful world of learning, I first suggest you read the "Before You Post" Stickie. It is unfortunate that you have had a fire, that really sux, I'm sorry to hear that. I am a more familiar with Quiet Walk - usually laid down before gluing or floating hard wood or laminate, with an STC of around 54, I searched for Quiet Floor but didn't find much info - is this similar? I don't know why you would want carpet flooring in your live room, it holds no acoustic value - isolation or liveliness - which is what I'm assuming you would want for your Live Room, most people use hard wood or laminate
sorry to hear about the fire. I guess the only positive thing about it, is that you have the opportunity to re-build it to be the best it possibly can be. And you came to the right place!
I'm not sure what your question is. Are you asking if those two files that you linked to are good recommendations for re-building your studio.
The answer is no.
The wall detail isn't much use for a studio, unless you use it as part of a complete two-leaf design, but the file does not show that. Sound will flank around that wall, especially through the ceiling, which is shown as being untreated.
The other file seems to promote MLV as a magic cure. It isn't. It is also very expensive compared to other, better isolation techniques. There are much cheaper, much better ways of building isolated walls than layering them with MLV.
It also recommends building your floor on top of "furring strips": Bad idea. Creates a resonant cavity under your floor.
It also recommends building your CR walls with a layer of drywall, then furring strips, then another layer of drywall: Another bad idea.
It also shows numerous flanking paths in the "diagrams".
You might want to read this post (click here), in order to help you get more answers here on the forum.
- Stuart -
O agree with Ian: Putting carpet on your live room floor is a bad idea. If you can't afford hardwood, use simple laminate floor, and if you can't afford that, leave it as bare concrete. Much better than carpet. - Stuart -I want carpet because it's cheaper than hardwood :) The carpet is $1.72 per square foot; Hardwood is $3.05
What changes would you recommend to the plan? I have contractors in my house! I thought the walls sounded pretty stout with staggered studs, mineral fiber insulation, 2 layers of MLV, 2 layers of drywall, and cotton batting. (mind you the acoustic panels and bass baffles aren't shown in these because they aren't part of construction) The ceiling is getting similar treatment to the walls... and the floor is QuietFloor on concrete.sorry to hear about the fire. I guess the only positive thing about it, is that you have the opportunity to re-build it to be the best it possibly can be. And you came to the right place! I'm not sure what your question is. Are you asking if those two files that you linked to are good recommendations for re-building your studio. The answer is no. The wall detail isn't much use for a studio, unless you use it as part of a complete two-leaf design, but the file does not show that. Sound will flank around that wall, especially through the ceiling, which is shown as being untreated. The other file seems to promote MLV as a magic cure. It isn't. It is also very expensive compared to other, better isolation techniques. There are much cheaper, much better ways of building isolated walls than layering them with MLV. It also recommends building your floor on top of "furring strips": Bad idea. Creates a resonant cavity under your floor. It also recommends building your CR walls with a layer of drywall, then furring strips, then another layer of drywall: Another bad idea. It also shows numerous flanking paths in the "diagrams". You might want to read this post (click here), in order to help you get more answers here on the forum. - Stuart -
Staggered studs couple the top and bottom sills together which will transmit frequencies from room to room You want to stick to double studded walls with a gap of air space, generally 3-4" or more, MSM (Mass Space Mass), Inner and Outer Leafs, look it up, search the forum for it, it is most idealI thought the walls sounded pretty stout with staggered studs
I don't know how big your studio is but it sounds like that would be expensive. I would go with your normal pink fluffy stuff. How would you even put that in the staggered stud wall?mineral fiber insulation
I thought when I first came to this forum that this was decent stuff, but I quote this directly from what Andre told me (wherever he is) - "Db-bloc is MLV. It is of no value in the wall."2 layers of MLV
Dywall is good mass, dense! The more the better usually As for the Quiet Floor, I'm a little skeptical about it. and you might just be better off keeping the concrete or using some laminate wood. Acoustical Surfaces Inc tends to be quite pricey as well. Now I don't wanna knock your strategy on how to build your own studio, but I think you should have done a bit more research before getting the contractors over. But, what I suggest you do is first, look up a two leaf build, MSM, and check out Rod's book. I am also no expert or pro on this stuff either, I'm just sharing with you what I have learned from being here and working on my own studio :D2 layers of drywall
That's not a good time to be making design decisions! Anyway, Ian pretty much said it all. the only think I'll add is: think "room within a room" for the overall construction. Think "Mass-Spring-Mass" (or "Mass-Air-Mass" if you prefer) for the wall and ceiling construction. You need to build your actual room as an entirely separate structure, within the outer shell of the building, and there can be no mechanical connections at all between the "inner" structure and the "outer" structure, except for the floor. The floor is the only part that is common between the inner "leaf" and the outer "leaf". So your outer leaf will be a single stud frame with a couple of layers of 5/8 drywall on the outside of the studs, and NOTHING on the inside of the studs, except an empty space filled with insulation, such as mineral wool or fiberglass. Then your inner leaf will be a separate single stud frame with a couple of layers of 5/8 drywall on the inside of the studs, and NOTHING on the outside of the studs, once again except for insulation. That is the standard "Mass-Air-Mass" or "Mass-Spring-Mass" construction for studios here. It is relatively cheap, it is relatively easy to build, and it gives you excellent isolation. Do not build anything that has more than one "Air" gap in it, which implies that it has more than two leaves. If you build a three-leaf wall, the isolation will be WORSE than if you build a two leaf wall in the same space with the same materials. Build ONLY a two leaf wall, never three, never one. Forget the MLV: It is just mass. One sheet of 5/8 drywall will give you better isolation than the same size piece of MLV, and for a fraction of the cost. Forget any fancy commercial magical acoustic panels that are promoted as defying the laws of physics: they cannot. The laws of physics cannot be violated, no matter how hard you try. There is no magical material that will totally block all sound at all frequencies, that you can just hang inside your wall, at any price. (The very best you could do is lead sheeting, which is extremely dense and extremely expensive. You'd need at least an inch thickness of it, an even then it would not block everything. Second best would be a two foot thick reinforced high-density concrete wall.) Don't get me wrong: There are some good products on the market, yes, and they do work to one degree or another, but they always end up being much more expensive than a simple drywall MSM wall. Go with the tried and true, well-proven isolation that simple cheap building materials give you.What changes would you recommend to the plan? I have contractors in my house!
Well, yeah, it would be "stout", but "stout" is not necessarily the same as "excellent acoustical isolator. As Ian mentioned, staggered studs are still coupled at the top and bottom plates, so they will still flank, to a certain extent. They won't be as bad a single stud wall, yes, but they won't be as good as two separate, independent stud frames, with two layers of drywall on only one side of each frame. Nothing beats that.I thought the walls sounded pretty stout with staggered studs, ...
I'm not sure that I understand you: You say the the one inch of cotton batting plus acoustic cloth that your diagram shows covering 100% of the wall surface, is NOT part of the acoustic treatment? An inch of cotton on the entire interior will most definitely have a serious acoustic effect on your room! It will most likely make it sound dull and lifeless in the high end, but still boomy and muddy in the low end. Unpleasant. Yes, you will need plenty of bass trapping, since it seems to be a small room, but an inch of cotton batting does nothing to bass. That batting will be killing most of your highs, selectively, so I can't imagine that you'll need very much in the way of acoustic panels (except maybe at first reflection points). On the contrary, you'll probably need to introduce some hard surfaces to liven up the room a little.... and cotton batting. (mind you the acoustic panels and bass baffles aren't shown in these because they aren't part of construction)
Like Ian said, that kind of floor construction is questionable. Much better to just leave your floor as bare concrete (if it is in good condition), or if you don't like that idea, maybe glue simple laminate wood flooring directly to the concrete. Much less expensive, looks reasonably good, and helps to keep your room live. If you post a plan of your studio layout, with accurate dimensions, and preferably as a SketchUp model, then the folks here will look at it for you, probably suggest improvements, and also suggest how you should build it for maximum effectiveness and minimum cost. Photos of the existing situation right now would also help. The sooner you can post the above, the better, since you say you have a team in there already, and they might be doing more harm than good, especially if they have never built a successful studio before, and most definitely if there is no successful studio designer overseeing them, and a good plan in place. - Stuart -and the floor is QuietFloor on concrete.
Wow guys, thanks so much for the lengthy replies!
The two rooms are 10' x 14', so they are too small for double walls in the typical room with a room set up... so we determined a staggered wall would be the best option after that. I know it won't be a large professional studio, but it should work for the indie and commercial circuits I'm hoping. I've been working with much less up until now. Actually, the two walls that are to the outside of the house (control room) are doubled and staggered but the interior walls are not. Mineral fiber insulation will fill the cavities.
The cotton batting is to try to make the room as "dead" as possible.... so we can control everything in the mix. I know this theory has changed over the years but I'm prepared to put in some reflection panels when necessary.
I'm seriously considering change the floor to hardwood laminate after talking with you guys....I'm checking on the pricing with my flooring guy.
I tried to do SketchUp, but I can't figure the program out! lol I keep drawing weird things. I've uploaded some photos of where we are now.
Here are some photos though:
Ceiling just framed in live room. Independent boards will be put up (to isolate from this) and MLV will be installed, followed by drywall (GB)... the cavity filled with mineral fiber insulation
Control Room (board put up to show was 10 degree slope will look like but will be removed until MLV can be installed, then the slope framing, then drywall... the cavity will be filled with mineral fiber insulation)
With the floor we are planning to "float" the floor on the "quiet floor np" material as a rubbery, vibration control substance but have plywood on top of it (not touching any of the walls)... the instructions say to use firring strips but that doesn't seem to make any sense to us... because it would make for weak points in the flooring between the strips...then of course the hardwood laminate or carpet would go on top of the plywood as if subflooring...again, not touching any walls except by acoustical sealant.
View of live room from a few days ago / before center wall was stagger-studded. Both rooms are the same size.
View of stagger-studded wall inside interior concrete wall.
FYI - MLV is already ordered by the contractor - I'm hoping it will be a usable substance since we are unable to do a room with a room.
I'm on my way out the door but, just a few things by looking at your pictures.
Your staggered studs look like they are 8" on center, I could be wrong but this might make resonance even worse. You also have the plates touching the exterior concrete wall, concrete doesn't induce flanking too much but, I believe with your sills touching you are going to run into some issues. I also notice an exterior window in you control room, what is your plan for this?
No need for a staggered stud wall against your foundation. In your live room the ceiling joists appear to be connected to the floor joists above. That ruins the de-coupling of independent framing.
It does look like an un-thought out build. So much work and yet so much waste.
What a shame.
Well, you can use it, and it will help a bit, but you wasted a lot of money right there. It wasn't necessary to buy an expensive manufactured product like that, when odianry building materials will do the job better and cheaper. Probably the best place where yo could use MLV is directly in between two layers of drywall, although I'm jut guessing there. Maybe Ro or someone who understands these things better than I do has a better idea than that.FYI - MLV is already ordered by the contractor - I'm hoping it will be a usable substance
Well, actually you ARE doing a room within a room! That is exactly what you have, according to your photos! :) However, very honestly, the best advise that I can give you right now is: STOP! Halt your build, and re-think, before you do anything else. From looking at those photos, you seem to be wasting a lot of money, and you also seem to not have a good plan at all. Your studio can be much better than what you had in mind, for the same cost or cheaper, but you have to stop now, spend the time to design it right, fix the issues that are evident in your build so far, then carry on. Seriously, I'm not trying to be funny or to discourage you, even less to belittle you, but it looks like there are several concepts that you don't understand, and they are costing you extra money that could be used elsewhere to much better purpose. For example, on "ph4oto-jpg", it looks like you have a staggered stud frame up against a concrete wall. (That wall is concrete, right? If not, please explain what it is). For that wall, you do not need staggered studs! And you do not need a stud every 8 inches, like Ian already pointed out. What you REALLY need there is a single 2x6 stud frame, with studs every 24 inches. That will be plenty. You are wasting a lot of money there with those extra studs, for no reason at all. You are also wasting space! You say your room is small, but you are making even smaller than it needs to be. The studs that are staggered towards the concrete wall serve no purpose at all. There are much better, cheaper, more effective ways of doing what you are trying to do, and what you are trying to do will most likely NOT be achieved in the manner you are trying to do it. Please, if you really do want it done right, then stop now, cancel the construction for a few weeks, and spend some time here on the forum to get your design right before you proceed. - Stuart -we are unable to do a room with a room.
Ok, we're on hold. My concerns are space and costs... they are small rooms. Another concern, that you've noticed, is that the contractors have done some things that didn't make much sense, like put a staggered wall in front of a concrete wall... but they did it and I'm not being charged for that, and I didn't see it was hurting anything. They also built two double walls in the control room where I didn't tell them too.. I didn't instruct that because it takes up too much room... I need my space. But it's done, and it's only better for the sound proofing right? I can't make the walls any thicker that I have planned here size wise - my control desk barely fits in the room comfortably as is. I know this will not be Paisley Park or the Record Plant but for my purposes and budget, I want it as good as I can get it. I went out and got Rod's book, but it seems complicated and "best case" - which is too expensive. Let's start here - what do you guys recommend I do to FIX the room as it is now keeping in mind that I don't want to lose anymore space than I have to.Well, you can use it, and it will help a bit, but you wasted a lot of money right there. It wasn't necessary to buy an expensive manufactured product like that, when odianry building materials will do the job better and cheaper. Probably the best place where yo could use MLV is directly in between two layers of drywall, although I'm jut guessing there. Maybe Ro or someone who understands these things better than I do has a better idea than that.FYI - MLV is already ordered by the contractor - I'm hoping it will be a usable substanceWell, actually you ARE doing a room within a room! That is exactly what you have, according to your photos! :) However, very honestly, the best advise that I can give you right now is: STOP! Halt your build, and re-think, before you do anything else. From looking at those photos, you seem to be wasting a lot of money, and you also seem to not have a good plan at all. Your studio can be much better than what you had in mind, for the same cost or cheaper, but you have to stop now, spend the time to design it right, fix the issues that are evident in your build so far, then carry on. Seriously, I'm not trying to be funny or to discourage you, even less to belittle you, but it looks like there are several concepts that you don't understand, and they are costing you extra money that could be used elsewhere to much better purpose. For example, on "ph4oto-jpg", it looks like you have a staggered stud frame up against a concrete wall. (That wall is concrete, right? If not, please explain what it is). For that wall, you do not need staggered studs! And you do not need a stud every 8 inches, like Ian already pointed out. What you REALLY need there is a single 2x6 stud frame, with studs every 24 inches. That will be plenty. You are wasting a lot of money there with those extra studs, for no reason at all. You are also wasting space! You say your room is small, but you are making even smaller than it needs to be. The studs that are staggered towards the concrete wall serve no purpose at all. There are much better, cheaper, more effective ways of doing what you are trying to do, and what you are trying to do will most likely NOT be achieved in the manner you are trying to do it. Please, if you really do want it done right, then stop now, cancel the construction for a few weeks, and spend some time here on the forum to get your design right before you proceed. - Stuart -we are unable to do a room with a room.
First, do an accurate, detailed plan of your room as it is right now, in SketchUp. Yeah, SketchUp is a pain to learn, and makes no sense at all when you first start, but once you get used to it, it's a very powerful tool, and it will help you do a clear, detailed design: Best of all, it's free! Download some of the tutorials to get you started. The post your model here for the experts to look at, and make suggestions on how to improve it. You are lucky: it seems like lots of god people have taken an interest in your thread, so make the most of that! It doesn't happen very often. Next, take out that staggered stud frame up against the concrete wall. You have about four times as much wood in there as you need! Is that porous concrete? If so, then seal it with some kind of masonry sealant paint, to make it airtight. Then build that frame again, but start with a 2x4 sole plate and 2x4 studs 24 inches OC, four inches away from the wall. Make sure that you run three beads of flexible caulk underneath the full length of that plate, one down the center line, and one close to each edge. You must seal that well, if you want good isolation. the same applies to all of the sole plates for all of the walls: they must be caulked and sealed airtight. Because you need the extra space so desperately, you should build this wall "inside out" to gain space. That means that you will put two layers of drywall on only ONE side of the studs, and it will be the side that faces the concrete, not the side that faces the room. So you will have to build the wall lying down on the floor, then raise it into place. It will be VERY heavy, because it will have two layers of 5/8 drywall on it when you lift it, so you will need to plan carefully how to get it up and into place. The drywall joints should be staggered, so that no joints line up. All joints should be filled with backer rod, then caulked. You will also need to hang insulation in the cavity between the drywall and the concrete, as thick as you can afford, before you raise the wall. So you will end up with this: Concrete wall -- air gap filled with insulation -- 2 layers of drywall -- stud frame. Why should you build it "inside out"? Because you need the space! You are probably thinking that putting a 2x4 stud four inches from the wall places it even further into the room that you have with your 2x6. True. But... The interior of the stud frame is now facing the room, so you are looking at the "inside of the wall. That space is where you will install your acoustic treatment: Built this way, the edge of the studs is the start of your actual room space, and your acoustic treatment does not stick out from the wall, since it is in between the studs. If you built the wall the normal way, then you could move it an inch or two closer to the concrete, but you would have drywall facing the room, and you'd still need to build your treatment on top of that, which would take up extra space in the room. You can still do it that way if you prefer, since building a wall inside out is extra work, and hard to lift. Figure out your design carefully, to see if you need extra space on that wall. Next, your inner-leaf ceiling is currently attached to your outer leaf framing. That cannot be. Remove all the existing top plates from all the walls, and drop them a couple of inches, in order to make room for your inner leaf ceiling to be clear, free, and decoupled form the outer leaf. Remove anything that connects the inner walls to the outer walls or to the roof above, and anything that connects the inner leaf ceiling to the outer leaf walls or ceiling. There can be NO connections at all between your iner leaf and outer leaf. The inner leaf must be totally isolated from the outer: this is the concept of "room within a room". Install sway braces if you need to, for stability, but they must be proper acoustic isolation sway braces. Your inner leaf ceilings (yes, plural: you need one separate independent ceiling for each room, so if you have a live room and a control room, that is two separate ceilings) will be attached ONLY to the inner leaf walls. Put 2x6 joists across the tops of the walls. Once again, you can build your ceiling inside out to gain HEIGHT: That means that two layers of drywall goes on TOP of the joists, not underneath it, and the space in between the joists is for acoustic treatment. You gain several inches of height like this. Ceilings must be totally sealed to the walls, and the walls must be sealed all around to each other. The inner leaf must be airtight, and the outer leaf must also be airtight. There must be no connections at all between the inner leaf and the outer leaf. They must be absolutely decoupled. Then make all of your framing 24" OC. That brings down the resonant frequency of your walls a bit, which is good. You want it as low as possible.Let's start here - what do you guys recommend I do to FIX the room as it is now
I don't see photos of the double-stud wall between the CR and LR that you mentioned: could you post some photos of that, to see how they built it? IT might be OK. It might not. Clearly, your contractors have never built a studio before, so ti is quite possible that the wall is not correct.They also built two double walls in the control room where I didn't tell them too..
That tells me that there is no detailed plan that they are working to, and they are "winging it" as the go along, erecting walls wherever they think looks good, but with no regard for any underlying acoustic principles. Which implies that your room dimensions are variable, and therefore your room is not built according to one of the good ratios: What ratio did you plan for, if any? I also don't see any provision for HVAC in your photos. Have you though about that? When you put people and equipment in a small air-tight room with extreme insulation all around it, then heat builds up fast. You need air conditioning in there, you need to duct fresh air in, and you need to extract stale air. All of that needs to be done without causing damage to the acoustic seals of the "room-within-a-room" principle.I didn't instruct that because it takes up too much room...
You say Rod's designs are too expensive, yet you bought may rolls of MLV and wanted to do a manufactured acoustic floor???? :) On the contrary, Rod outlines the best way to do it right economically. He has many, many years of experience building studios, sound stages, hotels, and other buildings, and he knows exactly what you can do for your money. the principles he outlines can be applied to smaller budgets, but you can't change the basic principles, since there is no way of doing it cheaper. There are other ways of achieving good isolation yes, but they all involve a LOT more money. If you want great isolation, go out and by some rolls of thick lead sheet, and use that insider your walls. wonderful stuff! It is about ten times denser than drywall, and is soft and pliable, not rigid. Fantastic for acoustics! But look at the price.... Drywall is a small fraction of the price, even if it is not as good. So layer it thicker. still much cheaper. So take another look at Rod's book, and at least try to understand the principles. The basic principle of his designs is "Mass-Spring-Mass", abbreviated MSM, (also called "mass-air-mass" or MAM): Understand that, and you will understand all that the folks here are suggesting for your construction. MSM is the cheapest way that you can get good isolation. Rod uses this same principle in the big pro studios that he designs and builds. So do most other world-class designers, such as the owner of this forum, John Sayer. Look at his designs on this forum. This concept of MSM is a tested proven to work all over the world, and it is the cheapest possible way to get good isolation. Nothing less than that will work. You cannot "hope" your way around the laws of physics. They will not be suspended just for your studio, no matter how hard you wish they will go away. If you want your studio, as you said, to be the best that it can be for the lowest possible price, then Rod outlines exactly how to do that in his book. Anyway, before you do any more construction or demolition, please do the SketchUp thing, and post more photos, so that the folks here can get a better idea of where you are, what is wrong, and how it can be fixed. In the meantime, post a rough outline of what you have in mind for your room layouts. Folks here might have suggestions on how you can improve that and maybe save more money. - Stuart -I went out and got Rod's book, but it seems complicated and "best case" - which is too expensive.
It's taking me a while to build the room in sketch up....I figured out how to build the walls in it.... Here's what the rooms look like
I have to measure the actual doorways, so those aren't right but the positions are right
I was going to upload the skp file but the forum says it's too big to upload...so here's a screenshot
Great! That's a start at least.
SkethUp does take a while to get used to! It's not very intuitive at the beginning. But stick with it, and you'll get the hang of it. There are several free on-line services where you can post large files for other people to download. It would be good if you could do that with your model, so that folks here can download it and play around with it, to get a better idea of what you have, and what can be done with it. A couple pf questions and comments: Which of those walls absolutely cannot be moved? Maybe you could color those in red or something, so that we can see what is possible and what isn't. What is the planned layout for your control room? I imagine that it will be oriented so that the front wall (where the speakers go) will be the one next to text that says "control room", and the back wall will be the one with the doorway into the office. Is that correct? If so, then you need to move those doors. The are both located at the place where you need to install bass trapping. Move the "office" door into the middle of that wall, and move the "live room" door a bit closer to the front. You need to have a triangular-shaped space in the rear corners, about 70 cm on each side, and more if you have the space. - Stuart -It's taking me a while to build the room in sketch up...
Well that would be all of the walls. The ones on the outside or either exterior walls or the ones made of poured concrete, the one in the middle is a load bearing wall, the ones between the non-studio rooms have to be where they are as well. I basically took as much room as I could.A couple pf questions and comments: Which of those walls absolutely cannot be moved? Maybe you could color those in red or something, so that we can see what is possible and what isn't.
Yes, the console desk will go up against the wall above the words Control Room.What is the planned layout for your control room? I imagine that it will be oriented so that the front wall (where the speakers go) will be the one next to text that says "control room", and the back wall will be the one with the doorway into the office. Is that correct?
I thought about that - There is enough room in that corner to put a series of LERNDs. Will that be enough? I actually moved that door over from the middle of the room so that I could put seating in the room for clients to sit on. It's really a tight space. I'll work on putting that stuff in so you can see.If so, then you need to move those doors. The are both located at the place where you need to install bass trapping. Move the "office" door into the middle of that wall, and move the "live room" door a bit closer to the front. You need to have a triangular-shaped space in the rear corners, about 70 cm on each side, and more if you have the space.
Ok, I've placed this file here for download:
http://www.crawford.com/equipment/lz/studio2.skp
Here's a screenshot. Use this coupled with the original design here:
I've stopped the order of MLV and Quiet Floor NP based on our conversations here, but that means the project is on hold....
From what I can tell from Rod's book and your conversations, I need to make it where the wall sole boards don't touch at all and use sealant. And the 2 leaf, double sheet rock system on those (gb, gb, insulation, air, insulation, gb, gb). That seems to be the biggy. The other is that I don't need quiet floor... Rod's book talks about an existing, one piece concrete floor but I haven't seen where he dives into, rather he talks about doing one from scratch.... mind you, I haven't been able to read through the whole thing yet. On here it's been suggested that I simply put laminate flooring directly over the concrete? My plan was to do quiet flooring with carpet or laminant on top of it, making sure that it didn't touch any of the walls.
Excellent, on both counts! Yeah, it's VERY frustrating to not be building. I had hoped to be well advanced in my build by now, but I realized that I'm not ready yet, so I continue planning and designing, to make sure I get it right. I'd much rather take a little extra time to plan it properly, than to just rush in then end up with a disaster that I can't use to record in! so I understand your frustration, for sure.I've stopped the order of MLV and Quiet Floor NP based on our conversations here, but that means the project is on hold....
Exactly. All of the inner leaf sole plates touch each other of course, but they do not touch the outer leaf sole plates at all. And of course, the outer leaf sole plates all touch each other too, but they don't touch the inner leaf sole plates.From what I can tell from Rod's book and your conversations, I need to make it where the wall sole boards don't touch at all and use sealant.
Yep! Of course, that is only for the walls between your rooms! In teh case of the walls to the outside world, it will be "concrete, insulation, air, insulation, gb, gb". You must make certain that there are no places where sound would have to go through three "leaves" to get in or out. Your design must ensure that sound only "sees" TWO leaves. Never one, never three.And the 2 leaf, double sheet rock system on those (gb, gb, insulation, air, insulation, gb, gb). That seems to be the biggy.
Yep! That's the best way of doing it. Keep your floor live. Since you already have a concrete slab on grade, you probably don't need more isolation. Rod's book shows you how to do it if you DO need more isolation, but that does not seem to be an issue in your case.The other is that I don't need quiet floor... Rod's book talks about an existing, one piece concrete floor but I haven't seen where he dives into, rather he talks about doing one from scratch.... mind you, I haven't been able to read through the whole thing yet. On here it's been suggested that I simply put laminate flooring directly over the concrete?
Carpet is not a good idea, for many reasons. But think of this. If you do laminate, and it turns out that your room is still too live after you finish it, you can always put some rugs on top of the laminate floor to help deal with that. But if you did the floor with carpet and the room sounded too dull, then it would be very sad to have to tear up your brand new carpet... I'll look at your SkethUp files a bit later. I downloaded them already. - Stuart -My plan was to do quiet flooring with carpet or laminant on top of it,
Someone here gave me a great tip for this, but I can't remember who to credit. If you open your sketchup file and use the arrow tool to select your model, hit copy and then open a new sketchup file and hit paste. When you save the new sketchup file it will probably be much smaller than what you've currently got. I guess the software keeps many of the components and downloads that you've thought you had deleted. The technique above worked for me.I was going to upload the skp file but the forum says it's too big to upload
How would I get insulation to attach to the concrete? Any adhesive maybe? The walls in the control room are not concrete., they are normal house exterior walls. I can't lay any GB to the outside of them... but I could lay sections of drywall to the backside of the foam board that's there behind the insulation? Similar the the way Rod talks about doing with ceilings? Between the studs? Would that do any good? Then of course the second "inside wall" would be as we've described.Yep! Of course, that is only for the walls between your rooms! In teh case of the walls to the outside world, it will be "concrete, insulation, air, insulation, gb, gb". You must make certain that there are no places where sound would have to go through three "leaves" to get in or out. Your design must ensure that sound only "sees" TWO leaves. Never one, never three.
Thanks please do and let me know. Also,, with ceilings, if I've got what he's saying, I should build a ceiling by adding gb to the underside of the subflooring between the floor joyces for as much weight as the contractors deem safe... then insulation, then build a the roof off of the interior room walls as if it was a wall, just on top. Does that sound right? With teh small size of my room, I would have to do those hangers would I? Just stud across the ceiling?I'll look at your SkethUp files a bit later. I downloaded them already.
Didnt seem to work for me... matter of fact, I found the 3d warehouse and started trying to add some things in, and all my memory was taken up, now I can't even operate the program.Someone here gave me a great tip for this, but I can't remember who to credit. If you open your sketchup file and use the arrow tool to select your model, hit copy and then open a new sketchup file and hit paste. When you save the new sketchup file it will probably be much smaller than what you've currently got. I guess the software keeps many of the components and downloads that you've thought you had deleted. The technique above worked for me.I was going to upload the skp file but the forum says it's too big to upload
We plan on making a window plug for that exterior window. http://www.soundproofing.org/infopages/windowplug.htm Thanks to you guys, I plan on having them move the walls in so they dont touch the concrete wall or the existing exterior wall.I'm on my way out the door but, just a few things by looking at your pictures. Your staggered studs look like they are 8" on center, I could be wrong but this might make resonance even worse. You also have the plates touching the exterior concrete wall, concrete doesn't induce flanking too much but, I believe with your sills touching you are going to run into some issues. I also notice an exterior window in you control room, what is your plan for this?